Foreign F86 in 1/48

[dai phan]

Hi all,

 

I am considering building foreign F-86s using the Hasegawa kit 1/48 with the available decals. I believe you cannot build an accurate foreign F86 from the box right? Thanks Dai 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by dai phan

[Illu]

“Foreign” Sabres is a big subject.  The Luftwaffe only flew Canadair Mk.5s and Mk.6s, and the RCAF aircraft are the same.  They were powered by the Orenda engine, and had panel line differences on the middle fuselage compared to J47 powered airplanes.

The RAF flew Canadair Mk.4s, which were equivalent to the F-86E/F.  They were delivered to the RAF with the original narrow chord slatted wing, and all were updated while in service with the so-called 6-3 hard wing.  You can build the latter from the Hasegawa or Academy kits OOTB.

The Canadair Mk. 5 had the 6-3 hard wing, and  Mk.6 had a 6-3 wing with slats, unlike any other variant of the Sabre, and no one has ever made a kit of it.   You can graft the slatted leading edge from a Revell F-86D without too much trouble though.

[mawz]

The RCAF also had Mk.4’s for a while, loaned from the RAF.

 

the Airfix kit is fundamentally a Canadair Mk4

[Illu]

1 hour ago, Illu said:

The RAF flew Canadair Mk.4s, which were equivalent to the F-86E/F.  They were delivered to the RAF with the original narrow chord slatted wing, and all were updated while in service with the so-called 6-3 hard wing.  You can build the latter from the Hasegawa or Academy kits OOTB.

 

That’s what I said.

[Snowbird3a]

to build a Canadair Mk5/6;  not shown is the removal of the scoop ahead of the stbd airbrake (on the Hasegawa kit).   Be aware of the wing desired.

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Snowbird3a

[Paul Boyer]

On 11/16/2023 at 7:51 PM, Illu said:

The Canadair Mk. 5 had the 6-3 hard wing, and  Mk.6 had a 6-3 wing with slats, unlike any other variant of the Sabre, and no one has ever made a kit of it. 

If I'm not mistaken, the 1/72 scale Hobbycraft Canada/Academy Mk.6 and "F-86E" kits both have the unusual 6-3 slatted wing. 

[Alternative 4]

Try finding an easy  to build RAAF CAC Sabre, now that's a challenge.

[dai phan]

Hi all,

 

So in short if I want to build a foreign F-86, what Hasegawa kit is appropriate without the surgery and what decals sheet(s) above is appropriate? I see Hasegawa has the F-40F-40 kit. Dai 

[Snowbird3a]

14 hours ago, dai phan said:

Hi all,

 

So in short if I want to build a foreign F-86, what Hasegawa kit is appropriate without the surgery and what decals sheet(s) above is appropriate? I see Hasegawa has the F-40F-40 kit. Dai 

 if no surgery, then the Hasegawa or Academy build into a nice Canadair Late Mk4, a Mk5, or a very early Mk6.  So, the 'SkyLancer' sheet would work,  the RAF sheets(for a Mk4), as would any Canadian Sabre sheet using the  aircraft serial from  23001 to 23610 (they came from the factory with the hard edge wing with fence).   The Hasegawa F-86F-40 will require 'surgery' to create a Canadair Sabre.

 

Tony

[dai phan]

11 hours ago, Snowbird3a said:

 if no surgery, then the Hasegawa or Academy build into a nice Canadair Late Mk4, a Mk5, or a very early Mk6.  So, the 'SkyLancer' sheet would work,  the RAF sheets(for a Mk4), as would any Canadian Sabre sheet using the  aircraft serial from  23001 to 23610 (they came from the factory with the hard edge wing with fence).   The Hasegawa F-86F-40 will require 'surgery' to create a Canadair Sabre.

 

Tony

Hi Tony,

 

So if I want to do the RCAF then buy the Hasegawa F86F-30 right? I do NOT want to deal with Airfix due to poor reviews of the kit. Thanks Dai 

[Sabrejet]

On 11/17/2023 at 1:51 AM, Illu said:

The RAF flew Canadair Mk.4s, which were equivalent to the F-86E/F.  They were delivered to the RAF with the original narrow chord slatted wing, and all were updated while in service with the so-called 6-3 hard wing.  You can build the latter from the Hasegawa or Academy kits OOTB.

 

This isn't quite correct: the RAF received a mix of Sabre 2s (narrow-chord wing), Sabre 4s with the narrow-chord wing and new-build Sabre 4s with the 6-3 wing. So three distinct configurations as-delivered.

 

Many of the narrow-chord Sabre 4s were modified with the 6-3 wing in RAF service, but not all.

[Sabrejet]

16 minutes ago, dai phan said:

Hi Tony,

 

So if I want to do the RCAF then buy the Hasegawa F86F-30 right? I do NOT want to deal with Airfix due to poor reviews of the kit. Thanks Dai 

 

The Airfix kit is OK if you pay attention to the cockpit. The panel lines are a bit heavier than the Hasegawa (Eduard) and Academy kits but shouldn't deter you from what is actually a decent and cheap alternative. It is after all the third-best day fighter Sabre in 1/48!

[Snowbird3a]

1 hour ago, dai phan said:

Hi Tony,

 

So if I want to do the RCAF then buy the Hasegawa F86F-30 right? I do NOT want to deal with Airfix due to poor reviews of the kit. Thanks Dai 

the Airfix kit , while not perfect, does build into an acceptable Mk5;

the Airfix kit has a way better nose fork than the fantasy shape of the Hasegawa, and the only thing to do to make a Mk5 is to reposition the fuel filler from the LH side to the RH side of the fuselage

 

 

[Sabrejet]

Nice job! (you left off the jacking adaptors too 🙂 )

[dai phan]

Thank you so much for the replies and please forgive me for being so ignorant. So if I want to use these sheets of decals, then Airfix is the way to go without surgery? Any chance Hasegawa can play a role without surgery? If I remember, Hasegawa put out a resin wing tips and the modeler has to chop off the tip? Can that kit be used for RCAF or German? And if yes, do you know what Hasegawa release it is? Thanks Dai 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by dai phan

[Sabrejet]

Those decals are all for Sabre 6s so to model a representative machine you'd have to use the Airfix 'F-86F-40' kit and remove the wingtip extension. The same would be true for any 'F-86F-40' kit but bear in mind that many manufacturers box their kit as "F-86F-xxx" or "Sabre x" when they often aren't. They try to maximise their moulds with minimal effort. At least Airfix tried to give us a hard-edge Sabre 4/Sabre 5/hard-edge F-86F and do separate parts for the F-40.

 

I'm not familiar with the Hasegawa 'F-86F-40' issue but I do recall the inclusion of resin inserts. The wing should be correct for a Sabre 6 (so long as it's slatted in that issue) by not using the resin insert. F-40s have full-chord wingtips while the Sabre 6 has the aileron running all the way to the wingtip and forming a separate element.

 

I'm sure that makes sense in my addled brain... 

[dai phan]

2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Those decals are all for Sabre 6s so to model a representative machine you'd have to use the Airfix 'F-86F-40' kit and remove the wingtip extension. The same would be true for any 'F-86F-40' kit but bear in mind that many manufacturers box their kit as "F-86F-xxx" or "Sabre x" when they often aren't. They try to maximise their moulds with minimal effort. At least Airfix tried to give us a hard-edge Sabre 4/Sabre 5/hard-edge F-86F and do separate parts for the F-40.

 

I'm not familiar with the Hasegawa 'F-86F-40' issue but I do recall the inclusion of resin inserts. The wing should be correct for a Sabre 6 (so long as it's slatted in that issue) by not using the resin insert. F-40s have full-chord wingtips while the Sabre 6 has the aileron running all the way to the wingtip and forming a separate element.

 

I'm sure that makes sense in my addled brain... 

I see Hasegawa makes a MK 6 version with resin wing tips. Is this the one for those decals? I really want to do the Hasegawa kit if I can. Thanks Dai 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by dai phan

[Sabrejet]

Not sure: Scalemates says new parts for the Sabre 6 issue but then it was reissued as an F-86F (with same parts?) so something is amiss.

 

Bear in mind too that those prominent mid-fuselage vents will need to be dug out, and the complex intake/vent panel at the base of the fin extension will need to be sanded flush to replicate a Sabre 6. Again, Airfix includes optional parts for those areas and I doubt that Hasegawa changed their fuselage moulds to replicate it accurately.

 

It's a minefield!

[Snowbird3a]

[Nathant]

On 11/21/2023 at 12:53 PM, dai phan said:

I see Hasegawa makes a MK 6 version with resin wing tips. Is this the one for those decals? I really want to do the Hasegawa kit if I can. Thanks Dai 

 

Yes. Use that kit for a Mk. 6 only. It should include resin wingtips and a new pitot tube. You still need to fill in the fuselage pane lines as mentioned. 

[Illu]

Despite the illustration posted, there is still a lot of confusion by people posting here.  

 

You cannot build an accurate Canadair Mk.5 or Mk.6 from any existing kit without modifications.  The Orenda engine caused changes to the access panels and vents on the fuselage (as noted in the illustration above).  The Canadair Mk.4 was an F-86E.  The USAF took delivery of Canadair-built Mk.4s as F-86E-CANs.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Illu

[Illu]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:59 PM, Nathant said:

Yes. Use that kit for a Mk. 6 only. It should include resin wingtips and a new pitot tube. You still need to fill in the fuselage pane lines as mentioned. 

 

No you can’t.  Canadian decals and resin wing tips do not turn an F-86E/F into a Canadair Mk.6.  See above.

[Illu]

On 11/21/2023 at 11:51 AM, Sabrejet said:

The wing should be correct for a Sabre 6 (so long as it's slatted in that issue) by not using the resin insert. F-40s have full-chord wingtips while the Sabre 6 has the aileron running all the way to the wingtip and forming a separate element. 

 

The Canadair Mk.6 with slats had a unique wing that no other Sabre ever had.  It was the original span, 6-3 leading edge extension, and slats.  There was no other Sabre variant of any kind that had that combination of features.

 

Also, Sabre slats were usually open when the aircraft was parked, unless the ground crew pushed them closed.  Contrary to comments going all the way back to the beginning of time in the modeling world, Sabre slats were not “pinned” closed, ever.  Three different Sabre pilots and crew chiefs from the RCAF have confirmed that to me.  You could push them closed and they would stay there until the aircraft moved, when any jostling of the airframe would cause them to fall open.  The slats were very easy to move, and were operated by air flow, so with low/no air flow over them, their natural position was hanging open.  You could bonk your head on them when working around the aircraft, thus you could push them closed.  

[mawz]

36 minutes ago, Illu said:

 

The Canadair Mk.6 with slats had a unique wing that no other Sabre ever had.  It was the original span, 6-3 leading edge extension, and slats.  There was no other Sabre variant of any kind that had that combination of features.[/quote]
 

 

Also, Sabre slats were usually open when the aircraft was parked, unless the ground crew pushed them closed.  Contrary to comments going all the way back to the beginning of time in the modeling world, Sabre slats were not “pinned” closed, ever.  Three different Sabre pilots and crew chiefs from the RCAF have confirmed that to me.  You could push them closed and they would stay there until the aircraft moved, when any jostling of the airframe would cause them to fall open.  The slats were very easy to move, and were operated by air flow, so with low/no air flow over them, their natural position was hanging open.  You could bonk your head on them when working around the aircraft, thus you could push them closed.  

The Sabre 6 wing is essentially identical to the F-86F-40 wing with the extension section removed (the F-40 wing is an extended span version of the Mk6 slatted 6-3 wing). So it's quite possible to do a Sabre 6 from an F-86F-40 with a tip trim, some small rescribing as described above and a set of sugar scoops. 

The Hasegawa kit has a plastic F-40 wing that you remove the section outboard of the ailerons and replace with resin tips, resulting in an accurate Sabre 6 wing. The Airfix F-40 IIRC includes the standard tips which can be fitted after the F-40 leading edge/tips are fitted and the extensions trimmed, making a Sabre 6 wing.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by mawz

[mawz]

44 minutes ago, Illu said:

The Canadair Mk.4 was an F-86E.  The USAF took delivery of Canadair-built Mk.4s as F-86E-CANs.

This is not correct, the US acquired Canadair-built Mk4's on RAF retirement and called them F-86E(M)'s, All but 10 Mk4's were delivered to the RAF, 10 went to the RCAF directly (the RCAF also had loaners from the RAF while waiting for Sabre 5 deliveries to make it to Europe). The F-86E(M)'s were all being refurbished and provided as military assistance and not operated by the USAF except for ferry flights to the new owners.

The F-86E-CAN's were Sabre Mk2's, of which the USAF received 60 new build units, the only Canadair Sabres the USAF ever officially had on strength.

Edited November 26, 2023 by mawz