ya-gabor Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 On display this week at the Nürenberg show the Mi-24A early version from Hobby Boss. One can say it is a strange subject and question the market potential for it, but for those interested in the Hind . . . Print screen from a video report from the first day at the show by Modellbau Koenig. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXec2K4VluA&t=623s Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I like the idea but I am concerned about the execution. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 31 Author Share Posted January 31 Same here, but for the moment there is no alternative in this scale! It is obvious that the Moscow company will somewhere in future do the "glass house" A version, but it will be just as "naked" as the previous ones. So . . . ??? Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Excellent points. I guess we wait til it’s on the street to assess its finer points. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I would definitely be interested in one of the original greenhouse glass models, but like others here, taking a wait and see attitude, given the company making it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bozothenutter Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Graft the nose to a Zvezda kit? 'Quickly hides' 🫣 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Certainly possible to cross kit. BUT and this is a very big BUT. Then you have to buy two kits in the first place: the new Trump Mi-24A and one of the Moscow company. Since the latter is completely “naked” one has to buy a cockpit from one of the 3D printer makers or a resin interior or a photoetch set which will be about 30-50 Euro extra. Then there is the naked exterior so get a 3D printed rivet set which will increase the overall price tag even further by about 60-70 Euro. Not speaking of any other extras like resin wheels, external stores, pitot tubes, turned gun barrel, aftermarket decal sheet. . . All in all one ends up with a kit worth somewhere in the region of 200 Euro to which one will have to add a hell of a lot of work to make it all come together in a proper way! Is it worth it all????? Sounds more like a dead end street! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 51 minutes ago, ya-gabor said: rtainly possible to cross kit. BUT and this is a very big BUT. As my friend Sir Mix would say. That is a way someone could do it but I think most would say no unless that is favorite version. Curious Gabor, since most manufacturers don’t seem to want to provide raised rivets, do you prefer divots or naked? While raised rivets would be more accurate, would a company go with a single size and general layout or provide different sizes and an accurate layout. I think most would take the easy route for many reasons, so would that be better or worse with general rivets or naked? In many ways I think naked is a better course if accurate is not the manufacturers plan. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Hi Tank, I prefer authenticity! This is the surface of a real Mi-24! Try to reproduce in scale what the original looks like. Here we are speaking of the Mi-24 attack helicopter and if one looks at a real example in 1 to 1 scale will see that it has enormous mushroom rivets all over its surface. Keeping this in mind it was still the fastest helicopter in the world. (imagine what would have been if it has flush rivets and the whole structure is designed more streamlined!!!!) How to reproduce this in scale? Obviously with positive rivets! Looking from the stand point of a kit manufacturer this is a real headache! Not technologically but more financially! Positive rivets have substantial extra costs in tool making as well as design. One should not forget that here the rivets protrude from the surface so one is not able to simply cut in two halves a fuselage because near the joint line it would be impossible to extract the plastic from the moulds. So one needs a different breakdown, not surprising that the new 48th Mi-17 kit from the Moscow company has such a breakdown (in four longitudinal parts) of the tail boom! So the costs of positive rivets is higher. The Moscow company at the time simply took the decision to keep it simple, very simple or even damn right primitive by not making any rivets. So they were able to keep costs down substantially. By doing so the final kit could be offered for far less and they can achieve a bigger sales potential. All this is true but at the same time they have lost a considerable number of (lets call them) more demanding modellers who at the start of 2020’s would have preferred a more professional and detailed kit both in the cockpit and on its surface. At the time they came up with all sorts of explanations. Bla-bla-bla . . . But in reality they heard the voices loud and cleat, the criticism very clearly and it is not a surprise that in the follow up the Su-25 or the Mi-17 kits the positive rivets were reintroduced, no matter what the costs are! By doing so both the novice and the “demanding” modellers were satisfied even if at a higher kit price. Many modellers say that negative rivets are much easier to paint by simply applying a wash. It could be so but it is just as possible to paint positive rivets with good effect and technically those positive rivets will be far more authentic representation of the real thing!!! After all this whole hobby is about a scale reproduction of the real aircraft / helicopters / tanks / ships . . . But I would also ask, would it be acceptable to ship, train, AFV. . . modellers if kits are made with recessed rivets? How about a big locomotive or a WW1 “Tank” with recessed /negative rivets instead of those mushrooms that you see on the real thing!? And here is one solution with 3D printed rivets from Edu but it comes at a price. Some 60-70 Euro (Actually just looked at Edu shop and it is now around 80 Euro). At the time I did ask Sulc at Moson if he feels it is OK to have as aftermarket at 60-70 Euro for a kit of 20-30 Euro. Once again all sorts of Ba-bla-bla. about production costs, research and development . . . Yes, it all should have been added on the surface by the kit manufacturer and then you would have a kit for what, 40-50 Euro but without a need to buy a 60-70 Euro worth of aftermarket just to get the same result on the surface!!! For the cockpit details additional 15-20 Euro and theres is no end to this. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Aside from the mold release issues, raised rivets pose another problem for modelers. That is filling seams. It’s difficult to fill and sand the seams when they are surrounded by raised detail because you usually end up destroying the detail. Making a tail boom in 4 parts to get around the mold release issue, just makes this worse. How do you replace the raised rivets that were damaged or removed? How do you make replacement rivets that are the same size as the ones that were removed or damaged? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, ya-gabor said: Hi Tank, I prefer authenticity! This is the surface of a real Mi-24! I agree. We are on the same page with our desire what we want from manufacturers. I was just curious when that is not provide, of the options generalized raised rivets, divots or naked what is next best? I feel that if they are not going to do it correctly that, maybe naked is next best option as it is the least work if one attempts to add rivets themselves. I am not suggesting that helicopter modelers should settle for less than other genres. We should be able to get accuracy in our kits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 18 minutes ago, Dave Williams said: Aside from the mold release issues, raised rivets pose another problem for modelers. That is filling seams. It’s difficult to fill and sand the seams when they are surrounded by raised detail because you usually end up destroying the detail. Making a tail boom in 4 parts to get around the mold release issue, just makes this worse. How do you replace the raised rivets that were damaged or removed? How do you make replacement rivets that are the same size as the ones that were removed or damaged? A option is Archer rivets, Quinta Studios or micro mark. Eduard as a set for the Hind. Something like this can be used to restore damaged rivets. Not cheap or easy in most cases but do able. One thing I have used on my armor kits and a car instead of those traditional putty’s where the filling and sanding is done is to use Vallejo putty and q-tip to fill the seem and limit damage around the area. It a more gentle approach. Limited putty, let it sit a few minutes then remove with a damp q-tip. If you need more wait, I give it day and then reapply with even less putty. Another idea I haven’t tried yet is a something like Vallejo but with Liquitex gel medium. Similar application and cleanup. I use it to hold pe instead of CA glue on non-tension parts. HTH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Hi Dave, Hi Tank, Yes, sure there is the question of damage to surface details during building the kit and how will a modeller deal with that. The solution should start far earlier!!! One needs a good design and parts breakdown, a clever way of fitting and with todays CAD design the parts fit should be solved, without any need for corrections. So it is or rather it should NOT be a problem for the modeller! But this is a question which should (HAS TO BE) be solved by the kit maker company!!! In case of this Soviet Mi-17 kit there were several “innovations”, they had incorporated spacers in the tail boom to safeguard against any mistakes by the modeller. Is this sufficient? It should be if one takes care and several dry fit trials. It should be a snap fit if all is well. There is little more that the manufacturer can do. If asked I would prefer raised rivets to make it as much authentic as possible. Here is the instruction sheet showing the spacers and how it all should go together. With a naked surface one would have a lot of problems and would need either a real Mi-24 in the back yard to make constant checks (for some it is possible!!!). Or a fairly detailed reference collection! But then again there are modellers who loved to do riveting with special tools. OK it will be recessed but sure for some such work is fun. As far as I know for replacement rivets the Archer is no longer an option. If I am right Edu and Quinta is now also making single rows, double rows and all sorts of general use rivet decals. So there is a choice. Will it be the same size, same spacing? Highly unlikely. But then again the Moscow company also did get some problems with rivet size on the tail boom. So in some cases the kit already has makers mistake provided in the box even before the modellers starts!!! : ( : ( : ( Here is what it looks like with dry fit showing the problem with parts next to each other. (Nothing is perfect!!!) Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snake36bravo Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) Im a huge fan of the Mi-24A Hind. More so than the later versions. Outside of the after market PE for the cockpit which I already have I've not seen anyone that has 3D printed parts for it in 1/72 and doubt the screenshot of the 1/48 version will be better as Hobby Boss is low end as a kit maker. Edited February 17 by snake36bravo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
serendip Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Despite the riveting conversation above, I've read the current Trumpeter Hind is not so bad, although I'm not convinced. I love the Hind A so will be buying the kit but am curious what mistakes it will be inheriting from the current Trumpeter Hind (besides the recessed rivets). Marc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 4 hours ago, serendip said: I love the Hind A so will be buying the kit but am curious what mistakes it will be inheriting from the current Trumpeter Hind (besides the recessed rivets). As I recall none of the Trumpeter/Hobby Boss kits have the hind twist. A fuzzy thought is saying one of them does but I cannot recall which one. Not the 1/72 Hobby Boss Hind. Only the Zvezda kits have it. To me that is a big issue that is hard for a modeler to fix. I think there is other smaller detail issues that I don’t remember off hand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snake36bravo Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 What is the Hind twist please? I see this now and then but cant understand the reference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HeavyArty Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 The fuselage behind the cockpit is twisted a few degrees to the right to counteract the rotor torque. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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