BWDenver Posted March 18 Author Share Posted March 18 Yeah well, I'm not the best typist... The figure of the first 10 airframes came from the folks at Stanley. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tailspin Turtle Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 7 hours ago, BWDenver said: The figure of the first 10 airframes came from the folks at Stanley. Bryan, I should have clarified my nitpicking by noting that the 10th F4H-1 with the Stanley seat was BuNo 145310 (#11), which made its first flight on 29 August 1959, while BuNo 145309 (#10) didn't fly until 19 February 1960, delayed by the availability of the first Raytheon Airborne Missile Control System, so strictly speaking, the first 10 F4H-1s to fly had Stanley seats. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 The focus on this series of articles is not necessarily to create the definitive history of ejection seats. It's to give the modeler more information than he or she may have at their fingertips. I think the McD seat drawing I published may be some of the best to surface, IMHO, and an enterprising modeler, with the H7 seat dimension might be able to come up with a credible representation. Considering the mess the modeler gets into if they want to do an early F-4 with a Mk.H5 seat. One of the reasons for pointing out the McD/Stanley seat was to highlight the fact that that seat was in the airframes when the set a number of world records. The only F4H-1 kit that is readily available (at a cost) is the Aurora kit. Or the pretty much unobtanium Meteor conversion. Of which I have in 1/48. I think the F4H-1 the USMC museum at Quantico had still had the McD seat in it. And they gave it to the airfield Fire Dept, as they did not see it as historically significant... But why does it matter what seat was in what airframe on what date? 123 of the 204 shoot down in Viet Nam occurred on or before 1 August of 1968. Truth be told it is likely the Phantoms in Viet Nam only got Mk.H7 seats with new production aircraft replacing losses. So, if you want to do an early MiG Killer accurately, you need the Mk.H5 or Mk.F5 seat. And that's the reason I did the Phantom offering and am working on the Crusader portion. And before the nit pickers start thrashing and screaming that there were only 203 MiG kills, an unrecorded, uncredited shootdown was performed by an Armed OV-1A Mohawk (armed with 2.75" FFAR's and 50 Cal gun pods) flown by one Cpt Ken Lee. The Army was loath to get into another Pi##ing contest with the Airforce on "Roles and Mission", especially with an Armed Mohawk that should not have been armed at the time...... I can only imagine what the 17L, aka Airborne Sensor specialist in the right seat thought about this. In a side not when you flunked out of Army Warrant Officer flight training you generally went to one of two MOS's. A 17L Airborne Sensor Specialist in Mohawks, or an MP. Not sure what to think about that. Several of the folks I attended flight school with in 1973 went into those MOS's. The 2.75" FFAR was originally developed as the Mighty Mouse, for air-to-air kills. Likely the only time an American aircraft used the 2.75" trying to shoot down an enemy plane. Cheers, Bryan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 (edited) F8U-1/E1, -1P and up, AKA F-8A on… The first seat in the Vough Crusader was the dual mode Vought Low-Level ejection Seat. While the Air Force was using 2000 as recommended minimum altitudes with emergency altitudes of around 500’, Vought was using the minimum safe altitude of 50’ in level or climbing flight, from stall speed to over 500 kts. Considering this was late 1958 it offered a remarkable seat envelope. When the pilot unlocked the wing for landing and taking off the seat was switched to Low-Level mode. With the wings down and locked, the seat switched to High speed, High altitude mode. Low altitude mode was enabled when the wing unlock lever was moved. A pin was inserted into the snubbing lines on the bottom of the seat. The snubbing line enabled immediate crew seat separation. In high speed/altitude mode the pin was removed, and the seat separated from the crewman in a regular sequence. When the Martin-Baker seats were forced on Vought, they were actively developing a Ground Level Transonic Escape rocket “Phase II” seat utilizing the RAPEC rocket catapult. They likely could have installed it in Crusader’s in the 1962 time frame. Instead, the Crusader pilots had to wait to mid-1968 for a 0-0 rocket seat. Vought was also working on a supersonic open seat, that could have been ready in mid-1963. All that came to an end with the advent of Martin-Baker seats in the Crusader. The driving force for added capability was due to the nature of Carrier Aviation, and the steep approach with high sink rates to come aboard. The rocket was envisioned to help the pilot in high sink rate situations. The stated goal for ejection seats in the late 50’s was a 0-0 seat, that would not happen till the advent of the Mk.7 seats. Chance-Vought ECP-437, dated from July 1958, called for the incorporation of the Martin-Baker seats into the F8U aircraft. Roughly 50% of the F8U airframes had to be retrofitted with the Mk.F5 seat. With the advent of the Martin-Baker Mk.F5 seat a minimum speed of 120 Kts at 50’ was the low end of the seat envelope. The reason for the speed difference between the Mk.F5 and Vought seats was in order to fit the Mk.F5 seat, or more specifically the Martin-Baker gun and beam assembly, into the cockpit they had to do a lot of modifications. The installation angle of 24 degrees 20 minutes. Some reports indicated the cockpit had to be expanded. However the Vought Low Level seat was 19" across on the top of the seat around the forward area. the MB.F5/F7 seat is also 19" across on the front of the seat. So it would appear the cockpit was not modified, but the Mk.F5 seat pan was modified to fit the F8U-1 cockpit. The switch over to martin-baker seats took place in the F-8C production in the 1958 time period. the shot of the Vought Low Level seat in the Museum of Flight's XF8U-1 provided by the museum staff. In any event the rear area of the cockpit had to be redesigned and a new aft cockpit bulkhead had to be installed with new rails. Simply put, the Mk.F5 was almost a square peg in a round hole. While capable, it still had a way to go, there were a number of issues during the first two years of operation. Everyone has seen the deck level Mk.F5 ejection of Lt Kryway of VF-11, as he ejected coming off the USS Roosevelt on October 21 1961 after a failed landing. He lived because he was starting from deck height, it he had done it on a runway, he likely would have been killed as he was below 120 kts when he ejected. He probably started reaching for the face curtain when he realized the landing had failed. In 1962 Vought was pushing to replace the Martin-Baker cartage catapult with the RAPEC III rocket. That unfortunately never happened as Martin-Baker was resistant to rockets in 1962 for the Mk.5 seats. Plans were in the works to equip the F4H, A2F, and F8U airplanes with the RAPEC III, but that unfortunately never happened. By 1959 – 1961 Matin-Baker seats were in the Navy’s bag of tricks. While it was the Navy “standard seat” the only thing standardized was the three-cartage gun and very heavy gun frame. By 1962 both Vought and Mk.F5 seats could be found in F8u-1 & -1P aircraft. In 1962 the designations were changed to F-8A and RF-8A, eventually all Crusaders got Mk.F5 seats, probably by mid 1963. The Mk.F5 seats had higher sides than other Martin-Baker seats. The initial Mk.F5 seats had a soft seat cushion, this was found to lead to an increased rate of back pain as found by Dick Adkin at Vought. When he pushed for hard seat packs, via ACC 93, with the incorporation of the RSSK, Ridged Seat Survival kit in mid-1962, the back pain rate dropped. But the back pain was transitory, in nature. The Air Force was a little slower to adopt the had seat pack. The F-8 airframes got the Mk.F7 seat with the incorporation of AFC 491, ECP 681 in all F-8 aircraft in mid 1968. Unlike the Mk.H5 – H7 conversion the Mk.F7 retained a hard shell, referred to as a sugar scoop. Along with a number of other changes, the Mk.7 seats got Martin-Bakers Skysail parachute. Colors for the Mk.F7 and F7 seats are similar to the Mk.H5/H7 seats. Model wise, if you are going to build the Monogram/Revell F-8 you will need to replace the seat Monogram originally provided. When the build packs went to the Far East to have the molds cut, Monogram made a mistake and included the pack for the Mk.GRU7 seat for the F-8. When I called the folks at Monogram about the seat, they were very candid, but never fixed the seat. Wolfpack sells a “Mk.F5” seat, but if you look at the drawings, it’s really a Mk.F7. The giveaway is the Mk.F5 had a partial sugar scoop with an open top. The Mk.F7 had an enclosed upper shell. Meteor did a reasonably accurate Mk.F5 seat. High flight, and Sherman Collins did an early Mk.F5 seat. I’m not aware of any other aftermarket companies offering an accurate Mk.F5 seat. True Details offered a Mk.7 seat for F-4 and F-8. Yeah, that didn’t work, it was a reasonably good Mk.H7 seat, but nowhere near the Mk.F7. The best bet to build an accurate Mk.F5 seat would probably be to get the Eduard “F-8” seat and rework the parachute pack. The seat lacks the harness details and would be easier to fix than other rf-8 seats. There is also the printed kits from sparkit-models.com, that look pretty good. So for the adventuresome modeler, it’s either find a High Flight or Meteor seat or rework the Wolfpack or Eduard seats, or get one of the sparkit-models.com Mk.F5 & F7 seats. Nose Capsule It was decided early on the Navy would concentrate on capsules, and USAF on open seats. Vought seat engineer Owenn Polleys patented the first aircraft capsule, submitting the proposal in December 1953. Vought seriously developed a nose capsule for the F8U aircraft. They even completed several initial tests, one in the navy yard in DC with an underwater test of the F8U capsule. Early in the F-111 development program navy Seat Manager W. c. Thomas gave a presentation to Navy and Air Force project managers. When it came to showing a Navy pilot who had been bitten by a shark the Air force members became alarmed, and seriously started considering the capsule approach. SEC DEF McNamara decided to tie the capsule with a still in development program. And that’s how the F-111 got a capsule. In a twist, only production Air Force aircraft would fly with capsules with the Stanley B-58. In a side not the F-104 was also studied for a nose capsule with Stanley teaming with Lockheed. The photographs of the Matin-Baker seats are mine. The shots of the Vought Low-Level seat are via Don Hinton. A great resource is Tailhook Topics (tailspintopics.blogspot.com) Good Luck! Bryan Edited April 4 by BWDenver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martinBK Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 French Navy MKF5AF seat...really colorfull. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martinBK Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 The F-8P seat, MK F-7AF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sabrejet Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/19/2024 at 5:17 AM, BWDenver said: But why does it matter what seat was in what airframe on what date? Because this is what modellers often need! (and it's a modelling site). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Great stuff. Mods should pin this thread! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 56 minutes ago, RichB63 said: Great stuff. Mods should pin this thread! Thank you for your encouragement. In reality it should have its own section for people to share derails like seats and cockpits for individual airplanes. Over the years I have found the one thing modelers don't have access to is what the bloody seat looks like or what color it is. This thread is going to get very long indeed just with my information. Cheers Bryan Wilburn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 8 hours ago, martinBK said: The F-8P seat, MK F-7AF. Very nice, I bet you don't move it that often! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 52 minutes ago, BWDenver said: Thank you for your encouragement. In reality it should have its own section for people to share derails like seats and cockpits for individual airplanes. Over the years I have found the one thing modelers don't have access to is what the bloody seat looks like or what color it is. This thread is going to get very long indeed just with my information. Cheers Bryan Wilburn Thank you for taking the time to post all of this info! Like I said before, I love learning some of the geek levels of detail about airplanes, even though rarely apply most of it to my actual models. I just find it very interesting. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martinBK Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Some pictures of the MK F5 PSP and MK F7. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martinBK Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 The 2 seats fitted on F-8E (FN) Crusader. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 PUCARA, Poo-Car-Ah, Pu-Ca-Rah Ok, I have no idea what the correct pronunciation is.... Mk.APO6A Rocket Likely one of the more unusual MB seats. US AC seats with rockets are designated as Mk.7’s. Non-US seats with rockets are Mk.6’s. I’ve seen several models of the Pucara, and I guess since it has a Martin-Baker seat people think it looks like a Mk.H7 out of a Phantom… Not so much… The dimensions were taken of a ½ scale blueprint Martin-Baker gave me. The PUCARA seat was derived from the Mk.6 frame. The canopy breakers on the front seat are a bit taller than the breakers on the aft unit. The colors are pretty much standard MB colors of NATO seats. Chute harness is an orange-tan, chute canister OD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 (edited) Released in 1952, the XF-88 is a decidedly vintage kit. While the seat in the kit is grossly inaccurate for the XF-88, it's a pretty close approximation of the Webber B-47B Pilot and Co-Pilot seat. In the early 50's the Airforce was seeking a "Standard" seat. They settled on a Republic seat. It was fairly innovative, and had pop out drag paddles to keep it from tumbling. The seat was used in the B-47E, and that was about it. Webber bid on and got the contract for B-47 Seats. Lindberg used the Webber B-47 seat in all its kits. So, if you want to do a 1/48 B-47.... Color wise the B-47 seat was overall zinc chromate or interior green, red cushions, yellow firing handles. Survival kit is a blue grey. The F-88 had a McDonnald seat, it looks like it might have had a drogue chute in the headbox, but the Pilots Handbook did not list it.. Two aircraft were produced, 46-525 and 46-526. 46-525 was modified with a turboprop engine. Cockpit was likely black similar to the XF-85. Seat zinc overall zinc chromate with a black headrest and arm rest pads. The first two shots are the Lindberg "standard seat", and the Webber B-47 seat. The next shot is an inboard profile for the F-88 and the seat dimensions. Consoles and panel are fairly simple. As is the seat itself. At the time it was a manual system, the pilot pulled one handle to jettison the canopy (LH trigger), the other to eject (RH trigger), and then they had to manually separate from the seat. Needless to say, this is one of the reasons the minimum altitude for ejection was 2000'. Edited March 24 by BWDenver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 (edited) F-101, early and late seats The F-101 has had two distinctly different seats installed in the series. Old school truss frame VS new school monocoque structure. The first appears to be one built by McDonnald. The second was built by Webber. While everyone is familiar with Martin-Baker, Webber is another story. In fact, they have built and developed seats in conjunction with the airframe companies for a good while. They were also a partner with the ACES II seat production in a Leader/Follower partnership with Douglas. The initial seat went into a few of the Early Voodoos. F-101A 53-2423 – 53-2446, and RF-101A 54-149 – 150. The remainder of the F-101’s had Webber seats. The seat can be identified from Webber seats because it has a square headrest with a rounded top, as opposed to the Webber seat that looks like an arrowhead. While the Webber seats had red head and arm rests, it’s likely the McDonald seat might have used black. Both seats likely were "standard cockpit color" Dark Gull Grey in color. Seat cushions were likely OD, and back pad Sage grey, but some color shots of the Webber seat show a grey back cushion. If the Early seat used a platic backrest, similar to the F-100A/C seat it was likely red. However, I do not have any color shots of the early seats. The firing handles on both seats were yellow. The dimensions on the seat were as follows: Width 23” Length 31” Height 52”. While dimensions are helpful, you must remember that the models likely do not have scale correct cockpits. The envelope of the Webber F-101 seat was listed as a 500’ – 25,000’, 125 – 425 kts seat. The initial seat probably similar in performance with a 0 delay lanyard. The lanyard is connected to the parachute rip cord handle, and on seat separation the chute is automatically deployed. The rub is, the pilot has to remember to connect and disconnect it. If he forgot, and ejected at 400 Kts, with the lanyard connected, his chute would open at an excessive speed. The Air Force used the 0 Delay lanyard in the early years, and late years with Webber seats, rather than developing a fully automatic seat, like the Martin-Baker seats in the late 50's early 60's. One of the contributing factors was Air force pilots got into the bird with his chute on with early jets. It was not an integral part of the seat. Once the chute was part of the seat it made sequencing a lot easier, and low altitude ejections a bit safer. Edited March 24 by BWDenver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 Great stuff! Thanks again for such valuable contributions. I didn’t know about the early Voodoo seat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 When I was at Wright-Patt researching seats it was indeed a surprise to find the early seat. I'm still mulling over doing the XF-88B with the correct seat and turboprop. Just wish I had better info on how it looked besides the TO -1 illustrations... There is a void on information when it comes to the early sats, which is why I started researching them back in the 80's. Bryan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 Testing time… The first US live inflight ejection took place over Wright-Patterson Field on March 15th 1986. The test airplane was a modified P-61-B-5 42-39498 Black Widow, named “JACK-IN-THE-BOX”. There were several ground tests as the P-61 with a jacked up nose ejected a seat into a net, then finally the in flight test on August 17th 1946 when 1st SGT lambert ejected from the aptly named JACK-IN-THE-BOX landing in a pasture north of Osborn OH. A few days later Cpl Brickheimer ejected from the P-61 at 5,800’ and 256 Kts on august 21st 1945. In some stories on rejection R&D have Cpl Brickheimer being first, but that is in error, it would appear he was a shameless self-promoter. The P-61 was chosen probably due to the unobstructed area right behind the cockpit. However, that was actually not the first US serviceman to use an ejection seat. That took place in Germany when a Sergent was in a hanger and activated the seat in an He-162. Nothing but a broken arm. And a very bruised ego… Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 F4H-1 Redux.. I have not been able to locate any reasonably decent 3 views of the McD/Stanley seat. However, I do have blueprints for AMI's F4H-1 offering. While there are obvious differences, there are several constants. the first is the catapult support. It measures 51.57" tall. The internal gun "rail" supports measures 4.17" X 14.4". The seat at maximum width is 20 1/4". I know this is annoying to switch between decimal and fraction, but that's what's on the blueprint. The headbox is 14 3/8" and head pad area is 10" wide. The widest point on the McD/Stanley seat is 20" that represents the outside dimenion at the top of the seat bucket where the conneciton block is for O2, G-Suit and Coms. The maximum width on the AMI seat is 20 1/4" at the front of the seat bucket. So if you look at this blueprint and the side views of the McD/Stanley and AMI seat, you can probably come up with a creditable McD/Stanley seat. The attached 4 View of the AMI seat and 2 view of the McD/Stanley seat should print out at 1/16th scale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 BWDenver, Thanks Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 14 hours ago, GeneK said: BWDenver, Thanks Gene K You're very welcome... More on the way, with the GRU5, GRUEA7 & GRU7A/1 & /2. Just have to come up with the time to downsize the drawings.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ExchefAndy Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 This is quite simply... some amazing info! Thank you Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted April 1 Author Share Posted April 1 8 hours ago, ExchefAndy said: This is quite simply... some amazing info! Thank you Andy Glad it can help! Happy modeling! Bryan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BWDenver Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 (edited) MiG-21F SK Ejection seat and cockpit of a MiG-21F at Wright-Patt. These images were shot in 1991. Some of the MiG-21 canopies are an integral part of the seat on ejections, and serve as a wind blast shield. Also of interest is the thigh or Hard Guards, the pilot slips he legs under the guards that rotate downward putting the pilots' legs in a better to prevent flailing. In an interesting side note, the Russians routinely changed the canopy after an unspecified amount of time. This was hammered home when a Constant Peg MiG-21 being flown out of Groon Lake had the canopy shatter on a pilot during a flight. USAF had to quietly find a supply for MiG-21 canopy’s. The shot of the seat outside the aircraft was at the Technik Museum Speyer Germany, taken in October 2002. I believe this is a later development of the seat in (and sometimes out of) MiG's... It does show to a better degree how the "Hard Guards" work to prevent flail injuries. And the guards to prevent the knees from moving, along with arm guards. Front view shows this a little better, as well as the RH side of the seat. The 2x4 is not standard equipment… Edited April 4 by BWDenver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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