2 seater Eurofighter 'shot down' 2 F-15Es

[Michael]

Michael...I know "Krack", if you mean Krellner. Not well, but he was showing up just as I left the ABS.

-Waco

Yeah, that's it. I forgot, but he mentioned he spelled it with a "K". We met him at the Barksdale show; same weekend you were flying at the Tyndall show. Super nice dude. They parked him waaaay at the back corner of the tarmac so no one was around most of the day. My buddies & I just stood under the shade of that big wing & he chatted it up with us for almost an hour.

I asked him if he had flown against the Raptor & what he thought of it. Surprisingly, he wasn't overly enthusiastic. (like I thought he would be...) What was really a bit comical was that he said he had to fly to Barksdale b/c they had given you guys a BUFF for your show & they wanted an Eagle in return. Barksdale had no less than seven, count 'em seven, F-15s on static!

[KingRat]

When I was flying the SK HAR.3 I was once in the perfect position for a Fox2 kill on a Jag T.2.

I therefore conclude the Sea King is the ultimate air-to-air combat machine.

This thread needs to die...

[Spongebob]

According to Flight International's latest article, the Eurofighter reportedly 'won' the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) evaluation. Beating the Rafale and Eagle but losing out due to other reasons.

I heard that during one the Eagle's flight, a RSAF pilot went beyond the limits of the aircraft and damage a wing. He was trying do something which can be accomplished by the Rafale. Anyway that's a rumor.

Actually, the Typhoon was the only jet elimated from the competition at the first review.

Hopefully the Typhoon will more reliable than that other great, joint European machine, the "I'm single engine and need a vector back to Kuwait since my nav-aides died too" Tornado.

Sponge

[Bullet101]

Look let just end this stupid debate now before it turns nasty i.e. Americans vs Brits, F-15E's are good planes and proven, whilst the Typhoon has the potential to be a great plane but as yet still waits to be combat proven.

Typhoon vs F/A-22 debate: give it a rest, there is no way in hell the UK could hope to put the spending that has been put into the Raptor into an aicraft programme, so therefore we got the next best thing.

And Waco i'm pretty sure that the Typhoon is a 5th generation aircraft considering that the Gripen is considered in between a 4th and 5th gen plane.

on a last note upon re-reading the thread (not meaning to be rude or anything, but rather as a note for future thought) it does come across from you fella's across the pond that you are of an attitude that "if its not American, its not worth having" which i feel is wrong as when it comes to aircraft, specifically modern next gen type aircraft, one should always be open minded.

Edited June 19, 2005 by Bullet101

[General Grievous]

though woudl be interesting to see it go up against a clean F-15C! :thumbsup:

regards

Raymond

Yes. I always read that Strike Eagles fly like a truck compaired to a F-15C. I don't know what is this thread all about.

GG

[DUX]

though woudl be interesting to see it go up against a clean F-15C! :wacko:

regards

Raymond

Yes. I always read that Strike Eagles fly like a truck compaired to a F-15C. I don't know what is this thread all about.

GG

Killing a little time on Sunday Afternoon. There is nothing wrong with a little spirited debate. I don't think this thread has the juice to even get "nasty". It's just a nice game of red-rover. Participation is optional.

P.S. The Brit won fair and square considering that this was an unscheduled face-off.

P.P.S. I'm an American.

[Raymond]

hurrah! for spirited debate! ;)

well, we can call 'rule breakign' 'spirited improvisation' instead by the typhoon crew :wacko: i msut say though, issnt it a bit of sticks and stones with a f-15 vs typhoon? i thought the typhoon was a super agile dogfighter a la f-16, adn the f-15 a long range killer?........so the typhoon would out manouver the f-15 in close combat, btu the f-15 woudl get it before then? lol

.....sounds liek a rematch to me! and rounds are on the looser!

...now all we need are soem flankers to cross the channel for some tag-team action! :huh:

has the Rafale faced off anyone in mock combat? always loved that plane, wonder how it peforms

Edited June 19, 2005 by Raymond

[DUX]

Indeed...I would love to see a face-off between the Rafale and the Typhoon.

[Raymond]

would be cool to see the rafale/typhoon/gripen/J-10 face off!

all canard delta config and all similar roles!

what do u guys think?

[General Grievous]

Killing a little time on Sunday Afternoon.    There is nothing wrong with a little spirited debate. I don't think this thread has the juice to even get "nasty". It's just a nice game of red-rover. Participation is optional.

P.S. The Brit won fair and square considering that this was an unscheduled face-off.

P.P.S. I'm an American.

No problem with Typhoons beating F-15Es. I think they're supposed to. Perhaps the way of using a single incident and related news as "proof" that bother some people. Perhaps the F-15E pilots don't get much training in dog fighting. Perhaps the Typhoon pilots (test pilots?) were much better, more experienced and they would win even if piloting old Phantoms againt the Strike Eagles.

In the first Gulf War Tornados got shot down like flies... at least that was what I read on the newspapers. At the time I thought it was unfair to the aircraft's reputation...

And no problem with breaking the rules to win! I saw with my own eyes a pilot nicknamed Maverick doing just that to beat his Top Gun instructor!

GG

Edited June 20, 2005 by General Grievous

[Raymond]

In the first Gulf War Tornados got shot down like flies... at least that was what I read on the newspapers. At the time I thought it was unfair to the aircraft's reputation...

while i was too young to rember it personaly, ive seen alot of doco's with tornado pilots tlaking about how they had to go from high to lo leval bombings, and how they had some losses, how bad was it?

sounds liek it is a rugged AC none the less, though the emergancy reset played havoc a few times according to pilots (slowing them down when they were bolting for the border!, the last thing you need!)

Edited June 20, 2005 by Raymond

[DUX]

Tornados are lawn darts. Take offense or don't but those are some terrible, terrible aircraft.

[Raymond]

...sounds like i need to go out into my backyard and have a burrowing competetion with a tornado and a viper!

..oh dont forget this great photo! (yes i know it blew up a second later! btu it looks cool!)

Edited June 20, 2005 by Raymond

[Scooby]

Yes, you're all very correct. A Eurofighter Typhoon, as a purely air-to-air configured aircraft, "beat up" on a pair of heavily laden, underpowered, drag constrained, air-to-ground configured F-15Es, in a low-altitude engagement, where the E-models stopped turning after the defender hit 180 degrees of turn, because that's what the training rules say. Additionally, the TRs say that role swaps (from defender to offender) are not permissible below 5000', because people get killed that way, but lets continue to push one broken rule into another.

Oh, and while we're at it, lets disregard that wing rock from the other guy, the standard signal to terminate an engagement, and press in for a gun attack--with a gun you don't have--and claim that they were left "helplessly waggling their wings".

No sour grapes here, they clearly dominated those surface attack oriented platforms. Good for them.

Moreso, since its been the only point worth bragging about in an otherwise over-budget, under performing, and generally unimpressive program, lets continue to bring it up and brag about it over a year later. That way, we can continue to justify how a world class 4th generation fighter was built when the rest of the world is striving towards true 5th generation fighter technology.

Nice job to the Eurofighter, way to demonstrate how good it is.

-Waco

Waco,

It is no sense arguing with some of these guys. They think they know what they are arguing but have no idea.

They probably don't even understand the concepts of a clean jet, ROE, and the wing rock.

And I am Canadian. So this isn't some Brit/American thing!

[Raymond]

hey

waco do TRs still apply, even though they are not 'officialy' in a training scenerio?

[DUX]

Scoob, I know the difference. I'm just saying that a kill is a kill. You don't get to choose the perfect circumstances in a "Hot" engagment and since this whole to-do was initiated by the Eagle drivers then I just think that the chips fell...on their head. They tried to crack wise on the poor Typhoon (Who was just sailing on it's merry way. Maybe clean config but I'll bet it's cannon was loaded.) and they got schooled.

Lets say for the sake of argument that there was a real conflict at the time that this happened. If 2 Eagle Pilots pulled this (in the way that they did...think up any number of reasons why...but they did it like they did) and got shot down then no one would be arguing the "fairness" of this, that, or the other. Shot down is SHOT DOWN. I never looked at it as some sort of "apples to apples comparison for the bragging rights of superior technology". It was 2 cocky dudes who overstepped thier bounds and got put back in short order by a Typhoon. So taking that into account....The Eagles lost.

Why can't Eagles lose? Some people seem to think that it's impossible and that's just rediculious. About as rediculious as expecting a 30+ year old airplane to compete and whip a brand new design. I mean, come on...the Eagle should have been retired years ago.

EX: "Grandpas in the old folks home. Grandpa don't live here no more."

Edited June 20, 2005 by DUX

[Waco]

DUX-

Yes, you're right.

-Waco

[DUX]

For this specific incident? Yes, I think so too.

I heard some old MIG-17's shot down some "State Of The Art" F-4's during the late 1960's too. **** happens man.

Edited June 20, 2005 by DUX

[kozlok]

So, if it were football, and the ref blew the whistle, and one team just stopped on the field, completely stopped playing, and the other team ran downfield and scored a big fat goal, would you be impressed?

That's about what happened here. If it had been real, the Eagle drives would not have stopped turning. They would have kept fighting.

Silly, this.

[siesta3]

I have to put in my two cents into this darn debate because I am irked. Not by the article and not by the fact that the Typhoon "shotdown" two F-15Es. I am irked by the opinion that two F-15E strike Eagle pilots were hotdogging it, being jovial, thought they had an easy prey - how does someone who has no idea of tactical fighter operations sit there and tell us what these guys are really thinking because he read about it in some article. I am not a fighter pilot but I flew back end AWACS controlling all these aircraft from all branches of the US, NATO, MiddleEast, and Pacific nations. I've seen my share of actual combat operations and numerous Flag and DACT exercises. I've also flown in the back seat of an F-4G, F-15D/E, and F-16D. And yes I see Eagles lose alot! But I also have seen them kick everyone's a**.

In this scenario and in my past experience I would of bet any pilot in an F-15, F-16,.. even RAF F1 and GR1s would of jumped this guy. It dont matter... the outcome maybe different. People dont realize air combat is a perishable skill and that most test pilots do not practice air combat at all. Lets say the F-15Es were flown by weapons school instructors/graduates - you really think the outcome will be the same? I think you really need to step back before you question the prowess of pilots.

.. and I would love to bet you that there was absolutely no damn bullets in the Typhoons drum.

[GreyGhost]

Lets say for the sake of argument that there was a real conflict at the time that this happened. If 2 Eagle Pilots pulled this (in the way that they did...think up any number of reasons why...but they did it like they did) and got shot down then no one would be arguing the "fairness" of this, that, or the other. Shot down is SHOT DOWN. I never looked at it as some sort of "apples to apples comparison for the bragging rights of superior technology". It was 2 cocky dudes who overstepped thier bounds and got put back in short order by a Typhoon. So taking that into account....The Eagles lost.

If it was "Real" me thinks the Typhoon would have had a AIM-120 or two coming at it before it even knew instead of being "Bounced" ...

Gregg

[DUX]

Ok, this is getting so good I couldn't sleep. A couple of points to address here IMO.

1. The Missle deal is out. The whole thing started and ended as a Gun Fight. Fill in the hypotheticals how ever you wish for a "real" scenario.

2. When 2 guys drop out of the blue and "bounce" some poor sap with no provication, then you my friend have (of your own free will mind you) just orderd the 3 enchilada plate with extra jalapenos. Traning rules, Wing loadouts, AG, AA birds....WHATEVER...YOU and YOU alone (and Wingman in this case) have made the decision to go to the mat "AS-IS".

Once you committ to this you have purchaced the WHOLE ENCHILADA as they say and all bets are off. You don't get to decide it's too much and call "JUST KIDDING" by rocking your wings or envoking hard decks for an op that is not officially sanctioned. Those guys made their bed and they had to sleep in it. The Brit just reacted, came full aggressive and flipped the coin on the Eagle Drivers. The guys got Skills, Smarts and above all...BALLS. His nice NEW plane didn't hurt but it was mostly a Piloting issue I think.

Saying that it was anything less than a defeat is like being out on the school yard and punching a guy in the chest only to have him jump ontop of you and clean your clock. Yelling "I WAS ONLY KIDDING" (a.k.a. trying to breaking off the engagement) at that point just proves you're a punk.

Sure, I know, regulation this, regulation that, Jesus hit me with a whiffle ball bat. You can compare stats and regs till the cows come home. The bottom line is...regardless of how it was done or who didn't realise what kind of a cow pasture he stepped off into...The Brit Pilot adapted and overcame and got the drop on them. The Eagles Lost! END OF STORY.

When you break any mode of combat down to it's most basic principle there is only one rule...on law...SURVIVAL. The Eagle Jocks failed in that pursuit. Whether by ignorance or skill or equiptment, it doesn't really matter. The Brit won by the most basic of all laws...The Law Of The Jungle. The rest is open for debate till the end of time.

(Please take that in with the understanding of a group of guys debating over beers, ect. Cause that's the way it's intended to sound. Thx.)

Edited June 20, 2005 by DUX

[GreyGhost]

1. The Missle deal is out. The whole thing started and ended as a Gun Fight. Fill in the hypotheticals how ever you wish for a "real" scenario.

The Typhoon doesn't even carry the gun yet right ??? So, how does it get a gun kill with ummm errrr NO GUN ???

Gregg

[DUX]

GUNS! GUNS! GUNS! Check Six...You're dead!

[Raymond]

The Typhoon doesn't even carry the gun yet right ??? So, how does it get a gun kill with ummm errrr NO GUN

Fragmenting scone Launcher! :o