JeffreyK Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Hi, this is a quick opinion survey if there is general interest in building the new Academy F-4C kit with the early type McDonnell wing tanks/pylons. I have a resin set for such tanks in the works and getting it very near release and so far I have made two separate pylon sets shaped to fit Academy F-4B wings and Hasegawa wings. When my Academy F-4C kit arrived recently I discovered that the whole wing profile was changed from the thin wing when they re-tooled it for the wheel bulges and now my pylons don't fit as nicely as they do on the F-4B wing. A bit of sanding can take care of the issue, but making another separate, modified set of pylons for the Academy "thick wing" is not completely off the agenda... Most of the pictures I've seen of the McD tanks is on F-4B's, but at least the very first batch of F-4C's delivered to McDill AFB in '63 had those tanks as well. I don't know how long they were used operationally though. What's your opinion? Cheers Jeffrey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onescale Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Hello Jeffrey, nice to read that your tanks are almost ready!! I'm checking your webpage on a daily basis..... I found just a few pictures of F-4C Phantoms with the McDonnell tanks when I did a little research on Vietnam era F-4C's. There is a picture of a Phantom with one each McD tank and Sargent Fletcher tank! If I remember correctly I also have seen a picture of a RF-4C with the McD tank. But I think the McD tanks are very rarely used on USAF Phantoms, at least during the Vietnam war? So for me there is no need for an extra pylon..... :P Best regards, Jens Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene K Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I have a personal interest, and I think there's a market there ... BUT as I've previously commented, I think there's a bigger market in 1/72!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Thank you - that's a 50:50 so far! B) I'm going back to the CAD as soon as my current projects are done and will redesign the tank for 1:72. I only need to get my hands on some 1:72 Phantom kits - probably Hasegawa and Revell - for measuring up the wing and the pylon shape. J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onescale Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Don't waste your time on the wrong scale! There's just one scale....😜 Best regards, onescale / Jens Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene K Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) Thank you - that's a 50:50 so far! B)/>/>/> Lack of interest is surprising.B)/>/>/> Maybe not a good idea after all.B)/>/> Gene K Edited February 5, 2014 by Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantomdriver Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 1/48 is good...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HOLMES Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 1/48 is good...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene K Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) ... will redesign the tank for 1:72. I only need to get my hands on some 1:72 Phantom kits - probably Hasegawa and Revell ... I can send you both a Hasegawa and a Revell wing (assuming you mean the venerable Monogram/Accurate Miniatures kit?). Next in the accuracy line would be Fujimi. Please PM me if I can help. I'd really (selfishly) like to see the 1/72 tanks come to fruition, even if there's apparently not that much interest. Maybe editing this thread's topic title to include the F-4B would generate another comment or two. :pray:/> Gene K Edited February 7, 2014 by Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I too would rather just buy good quality McD tanks and pylons in 1/72 The cost would be small compared to the time involved in cutting down the Fujimi pylons to remove the MER adapter, and sanding a curve into them to match the Revell tanks (after splicing the Revell tanks together to get the right length), and then adding the handed sway braces It takes forever to get just one pair starting from Revell and Fujimi parts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Thanks for your help Gene, really much appreciated! I'll send you a PM. I didn't put the F-4B in the title as I have pylons for the Academy B and pylons that fit both the thin and thick wing of Hasegawa kits already. Most of the pictures I've seen of the early tank in use is mounted on F-4B's and F4H-1's so that was my priority. I just wanted to gauge whether there's much interest in the very early phase of F-4C's with those tanks. All in 1:48 of course. 1:72 is next. Jeffrey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Gene, it seems like your inbox is full - I can't send you a PM... Also thanks Rex for the info - so should I aim for Hasegawa and R/M or Fujimi wings? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 let me play with sticking pylons up against different kits' underwing panels before I answer that and FYI, those tanks were seen as late as the F-4N in some Marine units into the mid to late seventies, and were in the USAF Phantom TO as late as the March 11, 1969 update, and are on an F-4J with VF-92 in October 1973, in Double Ugly, page 57 (you can bet that they WILL be on my own VF-92 F-4J model after just finding this, lol) I do think that after enough of the Sgt Fletcher tanks got produced, the Marines got most of the remaining McD's, it might have been because of the unusable fuel quantity difference, they both had the same usable amount, but, the McD's carried 34 pounds more, McD's were 2745/340, SGT Fletcher were 3711/306, both had 2405 pounds usable Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Really? Great food for thought - seems like the argument is made for an extra thick wing pylon for the Academy kits. As for 1:72: I hope the manufacturers didn't vary in wing profiles too much, at least not between thick and thin wing of the SAME manufacturer... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 okay, taking the Fujimi outerwing Tank Pylon with Weapons Adapter some companies have different toolings for different Phantom variants, Fujimi has Five different wing tooling sets, Hasegawa's new tools use the same wings for Fighter and Recon kits, with Sparrow block offs glued in by the modeler Fujimi thick wing with missiles, it fits Fujimi thick wing Recon, it fits (geez, one would hope so, eh?) Fumimi thin wing with missiles, it fits Fujimi thin wing Recon, it fits Fujimi thick wing UK, it fits, but, I am not sure that the UK got any of these tanks or pylons (I haven't looked) Hasegawa thick wing, it fits Hasegawa thin wing, it fits Monogram group thick wing, it fits (Monogram group includes Monogram, Acc Miniatures, and Hasegawa/Monogram releases) Revell of Germany thick wing, it fits Italeri group USAF thick wing, it fits (Italeri, Testors, Tamiya releases) Italeri F-4S thick wing, it fits (a different tooling Italeri and Tamiya) AMT/ERTL/etc thick Fighter wing, it fits Esci/ERTL thick Recce wing, just a little light gets through on each end of the pylon Hasegawa first gen thin wing, just a small amount of light gets through towards the center of the pylon (still being sold as F-4K/M) and Eastern Express copy Hasegawa second gen thick wing, it fits (these are still being sold) and Kitech copy Revell of USA thick/thin wing, it fits and since that is one of every tooling that I have, I might as well include the Matchbox F-4M/K, those are "flat bottomed" wing parts, so, as expected, they let a ton of light through in the center of the pylon those are all the kits I have, note that I no longer have my IMC Phantom finished model, or the Lindberg re-release of it Rex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 sorry, Jeffrey, I was measuring and typing while you posted the new Academy wing thickness variation is the reason that I thought all of the 1/72 scale wings should be checked, thinking that maybe that mistake had been done before,,,,,,,luckily, it wasn't Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Wow, thank you very much for your efforts!! That does sound very promising indeed. Jeffrey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene K Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) Gene, it seems like your inbox is full.... Sorry - I cleaned up, so please try me again. As for the 1/72 outboard pylons, I assume you'll be making masters based on the fit to the Hasegawa wing? Most of the Fujimi Navy kits have outboard pylons, but as Rex pointed out, they have weapons adapters (the early AF pylons didn't need an adapter as the pylons had integrated weapons release wiring/mechanism). Since the Hasegawa 1/72 Phantom kits don't have outboard pylons, there's probably a market for them (separate from the tank/pylon combo, both Navy and Air Force. Since you'll have separate pylons already made for the tanks, .... hmmmmm. Rex, What Revell of Germany kit are you referring to? Can't think of any early Phantoms from them. Gene K Edited February 8, 2014 by Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I wonder what type of tank this was: http://www.memock.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/jet-damage-at-ubon-vietnam-war.png Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Gene, I did all the Phantoms, I didn't worry about early or late types I did that because an F-4J could have the McD tanks, so, I thought what they heck, let's check all the wings (except for those two I mentioned in my post) And I agree,,,,,a USAF outerwing weapons pylon would be useful, also,,,,,,,,for those, Jeffrey might have to start from drawings and massage the wing joint for fit,,,,I don't know of any USAF weapons pylons to start from in plastic But, I do hope Jeffrey uses the USN weapons pylon with part removed for his McD tanks, instead of the SF tanks' pylons,,the SF pylons differed in real life from the McD's Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene K Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 And I agree,,,,,a USAF outerwing weapons pylon would be useful, .... OK, just a little trip back into the ARC archives : had to convert old links to the new arcforums.com domain since ARC has changed too many times in the pase, losing a lot of good reference and discussions. For example, these links contain a lot of good info, pictures and illustrations of Air Force and Navy Phantom pylons that Jeffrey may find useful: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=146427 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=149030 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=203326 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=149030 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=146427 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=165857 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=230512 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=137235 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=146427 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=108453 Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) I looked through those older threads, Gene, thanks for taking the time to search them out one thing that I didn't see, that I think Jeffrey could make use of, is the page with Figure 1-11 on it, which is USAF weapons pylon with MER shifted forward, and MER shifted aft It was in the set of pages you sent me a long time ago It acts as the best illustration of the flat bottomed USAF outerwing pylon, which is not just the USAF wing tank pylon without a tank, nor is it the USN Tank Pylon that their weapons adapter attached to the USAF is flat along the bottom, the USN type is curved (and the panel lines are different on each type) I will send that page to Jeffrey to add to his drawings collection, and will post that up here (since I just realized it is not copyrighted) I need to get a pic taken to post it sometime Saturday, though Rex quick edit: I checked the fit against late style kits (RoG F-4E, for example) because the TO says "F-4C, D and E" on it,,,,sure as heck, there would be one F-4E show up with McD tanks on it if one of us says they weren't on the F-4E,,,,,same for the RF-4s,,,one of the Navy sheets says for "F-4A/B and RF-4B" Edited February 8, 2014 by Rex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 Many thanks guys! Tied up at work today, proper response tomorrow. J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) here Jeffrey, the F-4C,D, and E outerwing pylon with a MER attached, per the TO top of the page Note that the bottom of the USAF weapons pylon is straight, unlike the curve in the USN Tank Pylon with Weapons adapter (those remained curved to allow tanks to be fitted to them) bottom of that page (just to show it completely) I really hope I sent you the USN drawing before, because now I can't find it. There is a good side view of the USN pylon with weapons adapter in that group of photos posted in other posts up above, though. Edited February 9, 2014 by Rex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thank you so much, that's extremely valuable information! When I went through the links and saw that clear picture of the early pylon with adapter I held my breath for a second a two. I hadn't seen that photo before and of course it would have been of very good use when making my pylons... I mainly referred to the USN tech drawing showing the pylon and McD tank installation for details as none of the pictures I had showed the details very well. Luckily, I think I got it more or less right: When I get onto the CAD again for the 1:72 tanks/pylons I'll see if I can do a weapons' adapter for the pylon in 1:48 as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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