neu Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Hi there :o I'm wondering if someone can point me out the differences in the VFC-13 Agressor F-5's I know there are some visible differences in the antennas, nose, leading edge extension, but I'm not completely confident about it. Especially not on the shark nose thing... Any help would be appreciated! Greetings, neu :o Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Well, I don't have any pics scanned of it, but originally the F-5's had conical, pointy radomes...and later they started getting radomes that had a slightly flattened tip, with a ridge on either side, very much like many shark noses. I *think* most if not all of the current adversary fleet has them, and the Swiss F-5E's and F's had them too if you google images of that.... Originally, I think it was just the Navy adversaries that had them, back in the 80's, with the AF aggressors having the conicals...I think. I just noticed Fuji is in here, probably posting...so you'll have images soon, I'd expect! :o Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 (edited) Where do you want me to start Neu? LOL The story of the F-5E in the USN is long and winding. Enough to say that they got them from varied sources at various times and hence lacked any real commonality. mixed bag as to Shark noses with Big LEX, Conical Nose with small LEX, Shark Nose on Small LEX and Conical on Big LEX. It was a nightmare! You really just have to look at the aircraft you are doing and study it. Recently they have bought enough former Swiss F-5E's to replace the older and very worn Tigers. These aircraft, after refurb at Northrup-Grumman in St. Augustine, FL, are known as F-5Ns. These aircraft all have the same configuration of Shark-Noses, Big LEXes, ECM bumps, antenna arrangements and NO Guns . All the ones at Key West are N's as are most at VFC-13 Fallon but they still have a few E's left to be replaced by the newer jets. The three F's left in the Navy are all hold outs, one even being the famous Viggen schemed Black 20 from Topgun which made its way to VF-45 in Key West for a time. This is one of the N's at Key West and all should have this configuration. If you have any questions drop me an email. Edited March 16, 2007 by Fuji Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Did the shark nose and larger LERXs on the F-5 come from the F-20 or vice versa ? Gregg Link to post Share on other sites
Iron Eagle Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Fuji, could you explain the pattern with the vents in front of the "NAVY"? I've seen it on some Ns (I believe, may have been Es), but not others. Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 (edited) Actually, those vents are the auxilliary air intakes, which open automatically during engine cranking, takeoff and low speed to increase engine air flow....similar to the MiG-29 although of course the main intakes don't seal shut. edit: Forgot to mention it should be on all E's, F's, and N's (not sure about A's and B's off the top of my head). Edited March 16, 2007 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Link to post Share on other sites
David Hingtgen Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I'm far from an F-5 expert, but I believe both the larger LEX and sharknose come from the F-20. Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Did the shark nose and larger LERXs on the F-5 come from the F-20 or vice versa ? Gregg I have been told that they came from the F-20 but I am not convinced of that. The nose on the F-20 is very different and the first F-20 had the F-5 style shark nose prior to the later two prototypes having the definitive F-20 nose. Note - After a quick Google search, the F-20 made its first flight in 1982 and the Swiss, who have always had the Shark Nosed E's bought them in 1976 Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Ah, interesting ! I knew they were different shark noses, I just wasn't sure if it was a development of the F-5E/F or if it was borne with the F-5G/F-20 ... Thanks Fuji & David for your answers ! Gregg Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Actually, those vents are the auxilliary air intakes, which open automatically during engine cranking, takeoff and low speed to increase engine air flow....similar to the MiG-29 although of course the main intakes don't seal shut.edit: Forgot to mention it should be on all E's, F's, and N's (not sure about A's and B's off the top of my head). They were on the F-5A and B, or the CF-116 and CF-116D as we called them in Canada. Link to post Share on other sites
Iron Eagle Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Actually, those vents are the auxilliary air intakes, which open automatically during engine cranking, takeoff and low speed to increase engine air flow....similar to the MiG-29 although of course the main intakes don't seal shut.edit: Forgot to mention it should be on all E's, F's, and N's (not sure about A's and B's off the top of my head). Thanks Andrew! I went back and looked at the photos again and can just barely see the panel lines of the intakes now that I know they're there. Link to post Share on other sites
David Hingtgen Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Trying to recall, but was there a change in the auxiliary intakes between the A/B and E/F? Something about how/where the louvers hinged or something? Link to post Share on other sites
OKB Krasnaya Zvezda Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Muy buenas fotos José! :lol: do you have a web site? Link to post Share on other sites
sundowner Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 I have been told that they came from the F-20 but I am not convinced of that. The nose on the F-20 is very different and the first F-20 had the F-5 style shark nose prior to the later two prototypes having the definitive F-20 nose. Note - After a quick Google search, the F-20 made its first flight in 1982 and the Swiss, who have always had the Shark Nosed E's bought them in 1976 I am not sure but I think they were introduced when the first F-5F's came in service , I have even seen some USAF F-5F's with the Sharknose and big LEX's . Henk Link to post Share on other sites
faassen Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 When the Swiss recieved their F-5E/F's back in 1976 they had the conical black radomes and no LEX. The were retrofitted with them back in the eighties. I don't know why because they didn't get the radar to go with it. Yes. the shark nose comes from the F-20!! It had a radar in it (i believe the APG-67). HTH Dick Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 Dick, thanks for the further information ... So, it seems the shark nose and larger LERXes on the F-5E/F were a development of the F-5G/F-20 afterall then retrofitted to the F-5E/F later on .... Gregg Link to post Share on other sites
f5guy Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 (edited) Its always nice to see another F-5 thread.... Regarding the Swiss F-5s, the first group with serial numbers that start with 76-xxxx were delivered with the original round conical nose, and no wing root LEXs (they all had radars too). You can tell these in photos because the nose cone was black. The second group of Swiss F-5s had serial numbers in the 81-xxxx series. They were delivered with the duckbill nose cone and wing root LEXs. These can be distinguished in photos becase their nose cone is painted gray. However, at some point the entire 76-xxxx series was retrofitted with the duckbill nose cone and wing root LEXs, and they too were painted gray. Basically for the Swiss F-5s, if the nose cone is gray, it hase the newer nose and LEXs. If the nosecone is black, its the old style round cone, and no LEXs. All of the F-5Ns that the USN/USMC have received from the Swiss will have the mods, plus radar warning antennas, and a chaff/flare dispenser on the belly. As for the original USN F-5E/Fs (Topgun, VF-43), they did not have these mods (duckbill nosecone, or LEXs). Around the early 1980's though they started going in for overhaul, and came out with them. By the time they got passed onto VF-126, VF-43 (for the second time), and VF-45 in the late 80's/early 90's, and later onto VFA-127 (early 90's), all of the Navy F-5E/Fs had these mods. When VFC-13 stood up with F-5s at Fallon in the mid-90's, they had a mix of ex-USAF birds, plus the remaining USN F-5s. The easiest way to tell their heritage is that the ex-USAF machines serial number will start with 72/73/ or 74, and in the case of the one ex-USAF F-5F, 84. All of the original Navy F-5E/Fs will have serials starting with 159xxx, 160xxx, or 162xxx. Another easy way to tell is that the ex-USAF machines have bort (nose) numbers 00 through 07, and 10 to 15 for the E's, and 30 for the F. The original USN birds have bort numbers 20 to 25 for the E's, and 31 & 32 for the F's. So what does all of this mean you ask? Generally the ex-USAF F-5E's will have the round nose cone, and no LEXs. HOWEVER, this is not a hard fast rule because some did get retrofitted with the mods. Your best bet is a pic of the Tiger in question. The only ex-USAF F-5F (840456) has always had the mods because it was a very late build aircraft, and was built when the mods were standard. As Fuji mentioned, there were even one or two Saints F-5s that had a mix of round nose, with the wing root LEXs, but only one or two (#02 on the Twobobs Saints sheet is one of them). If you have a specific jet in mind, and aren't sure, shoot me a PM, and I'll see what I can find out from my end. HTH, Fred K. Edited March 18, 2007 by f5guy Link to post Share on other sites
f5guy Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 I am not sure but I think they were introduced when the first F-5F's came in service , I have even seen some USAF F-5F's with the Sharknose and big LEX's . Henk Hi Henk, I'm not sure which model introduced the shark/duckbill nose and LEXs to the F-5, but it was definately in the very early 1980's that it happened, after which time, they became standard equipment. You are indeed correct about some USAF F-5Fs having those mods. In fact, they were built with them. USAF F-5Fs with serial numbers starting with 82/83/ or 84 had them. All others did not. HTH, Fred K Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) They were on the F-5A and B, or the CF-116 and CF-116D as we called them in Canada. Not quite: they were on the Canadair-built CF-116A/D's and Dutch NF-5A/B's. Both Dutch and Canadian variants were fitted with 4300 lb (in afterburning) J85-CAN-15 engines; these required more air than the F-5A/B standard 4080 lb J85-GE-13s, hence the extra intakes. HTH, Andre Edited March 19, 2007 by Andre Link to post Share on other sites
jbrundt Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Actually, those vents are the auxilliary air intakes, which open automatically during engine cranking, takeoff and low speed to increase engine air flow....similar to the MiG-29 although of course the main intakes don't seal shut.edit: Forgot to mention it should be on all E's, F's, and N's (not sure about A's and B's off the top of my head). Just a side note on the aux intake louvers; If anyone plans on building a static jet these doors/louvers should remain closed. I know Hasegawa gives you the option of having opened louvers but unless you are depicting an aircraft with the engine running on the ground or on approach to land these should be in the closed position. Just a nit I have when I see an F-5 model......... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 If anyone plans on building a static jet these doors/louvers should remain closed. Agreed - AFAIK these were simply spring loaded and would open when the pressure on the inside was lower than on the outside. Cheers, Andre Link to post Share on other sites
faassen Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Does anyone know how many Swiss Tigers were handed over to the USA?? How many are left in Switzerland? What radar do they carry?? The APG-67??? Link to post Share on other sites
f5guy Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Does anyone know how many Swiss Tigers were handed over to the USA?? How many are left in Switzerland? What radar do they carry?? The APG-67??? Hi, If I remember right the USN got 32 F-5E's from the Swiss. As for the radar, I would assume that it would be whatever version the Swiss had in them. Sorry I can't be more specific at the moment ;0) Fred K Link to post Share on other sites
Fuji Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hi, If I remember right the USN got 32 F-5E's from the Swiss. As for the radar, I would assume that it would be whatever version the Swiss had in them. Sorry I can't be more specific at the moment ;0) Fred K Actually the Navy bought 44, 12 for VFC-111 at Key West, 12 for VMFT-401 at Yuma and the rest for VFC-13 at Fallon. Not sure of the Radar but I will find out as I am working on an article for Combat Aircraft. By the way, they each have only one F-5F. Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 What radar do they carry?? The APG-67??? AFAIK, the program to reequip the Swiss Tigers with the APG-69 was cancelled. So I *think* these birds are still carrying the AN/APQ-159. How many are left in Switzerland? Not sure about the numbers, but in addition to the Tigers that went back stateside, Austria leased 12 to replace their Drakens. HTH, Andre Link to post Share on other sites
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