B-24H and J Differences

[Astronerd]

The Monogram kit was designed during the days of its glory. While I don't have the kit (I still build in God's One True Scale, Amen - 1/72), from what I've seen of it, it is a great looking kit.

There are a couple of things to mention, however. I'm not sure what the cheek gun configuration is and I don't know which articles online are showing the kit as it comes. There are about five or six different variations on the cheek guns. The one I THINK the kit has is an early one with no suport frame going from left to right across the top of the ball socket mounting frame. I can't find my notes on what sn's had this mod, but it was an early one.

Second, from what I can see the tail turret is completely wrong. I don't know what turret was/is mounted on the B-24 at the USAF Museum - which is probably the aircraft they measured for the kit - but that one may not have been correct at the time. The turret that I believe is on the kit is an A6B Motor Products Turret. It should be an A6 or an A6A. This turret would have staggered .50 cal guns with the right one (gunner's right) set back 6 inches from the one on the left. Also, the glass on the A6 and A6A was flat, not curved. Also, the turret would not have had the external metal covering the gun mechanism. They removed it to lighten the turret as they didn't need to worry about draft since it faced backwards.

If you go to b24bestweb.com and look for photos of B-24Ds and B-24J-COs before about block 45 you will eventually find photos of the tail turret that show this well. If you send me your email address I can send you a closeup photo that will answer all your questions about this tail turret. My email is ag122651@hotmail.com

So to make this short, build the kit and enjoy the heck out of it, just knowing that the decals may or may not be right for the cheek gun configuration of the kit. You can probably find a photo of the aircraft you want to build on www.b24bestweb.com and see what configuration it had.

Alan

Do you have photos of a specific aircraft... "Queen of the Strip", a B-24M I think? I am trying to combine a Revell B-24D and a Monogram B-24J to serve as a presentation to Al Busedu who served as the tail gunner for "Queen of the Strip". I found the nose art but I haven't seen photos of the rest of the aircraft.

[Jennings]

Chris of Obscureco is supposed to be working on a new A6A tail turret for the Hasegawa kit. If he doesn't, I'm going to break his ever-so-talented fingers next time I see him

J

[Steve N]

Mr. Bucholz mentioned that to me awhile back, but I hadn't wanted to say anything on the open forums.

SN

[Jennings]

I sent him photos and begged, and pleaded, and whined, and pleaded some more. He *better* do it!

[Steve N]

I sent him pics as well, including a bunch of an A6A that was recently offered on Ebay..it was bit beat up, and missing the plexi (and guns of course) but otherwise mostly complete.

SN

[DonSS3]

For 1/48th, doesn't Bill Koster make a turret set for the B-24? Maybe combined with one of his conversion sets? Memory fails me now…

[caughtinthemiddle]

Dear all B-24 experts,

I've bought Hasegawa's B-24J some time ago.

I'd like to build F7A "Photo Queen" - what should I modify or change in the kit?

Thank you in advance for any hints.

MG

[rpeck]

Just picked up the Kits-Word decals for the B-24 so this helps me also.

Kits-Word decal are printed perfect.

[Phil marchese]

Nither the " b-24 expert "or Al's great book have the answer se out clearly. Itis exteremly simple. Unless there has been a repair to the nose area, there is one and only one two ( logical *)dection feature for a B-24H. The H series regardless of assembler ( 3) and paint scheme will always have the appox 8"slanted brace within the lower nose side panel. This should not be confused with the many forms of bomb scan windows aft the lower side panels side. I have posted a simpliar reply to the AAF forum many years ago where it went largely unheaded (circa 1999). Sinc 2000, the following tool has been available via the 7 BG site and B24bestweb at the nose turret button.

http://www.7thbg.org/B24Recco3chg.htm

From a frontal view, The H series also has a framed spilt in the center line above the optical flat bomb aiming panel where the two side panels meetin. I'm am not certain if this is two-way proof. *"A" always has it and all others never have it.

Of navigator windows, local modifications, enclosed waist, A-15 turret, outward nose door, etc; none are exclusive to the H series.

Copyright 1998/99 for prive use only, Allrights reserved.

Phil Marchese

[Phil marchese]

posted in error while re-reading earlier post

Edited December 15, 2010 by Phil marchese

[Phil marchese]

seriously, what did I hit? twice times.

Well, might as well clear the air on the B-24 nose turrets since I can't fully delete the post:

In Nov 1942, Maj Unruh was detached from the 90th BG ( then 7th AF) and assigned to the Hawaiian Air Depot where in cooperation with others develoed the B-24D1 prototype.

In March 1943 HAD sent a representative to the SWPA where a 90th BG (now 5th AF) B-24D was fitted with the first of 12 kits supplied by HAD.

The USN at EWA recieved the balance of the first 35 kits (23). The SWPA took to the first week in July to attach all 12 kits but had already been recieving HAD nose mod since 2 in May

Eventuall a total of 77 HAD kits were installed in the SWPA of the 100 produced ( see 23 USN above).

Meanwhile the basic HAD solution was adapted by the Fairfield Air Depot ( FAD) near Dayon's Wright Field circa Feb 1943. It added 8" in depth to the nose and large scanning windows. In so much as these were originally intended for the 7 & 13 AF, the prototype's ( 41-11804 ), tail positgion followed the practice preferred by those two Commands. The AAFAC (Antisumarine Command ) also saw and adapted the nose turret solution. Ten were produced by FAD appeared in the 11AF ( Northern Pacific).

In April 1943 Middletown Air Depot was designated the AAFAC support site and by late May began delivering D1 in addition to its early radar planes. Of a planned 63 the program was curtained after 31-41 planes. Some were redirected to the Pacific as SB-24D. The MAD prototype 42-40484, was based on 41-11804 but was did not have the Pacific tails.

Meanwhile three other events occured. The FAD prototype also went to OCAD OK for a design prototype and OCAD began inducting B-24D for the modification. Unfortunately the first deliveries did not occure until Sept 1943 while the factories were in production of the nose turret series. Most records indicate 66 were modified including one Ferret for the 11 AF.

Second, the AAF decided on the Emerson turret for the B-24 and began allocating production of the turrets . The Ford style H , and the NAA K series ( twin tail) were to get the Emerson, while the Consolidate types (early J series) would continue with the A-6 variants until mid 1944. The planned NAA B-24K after delay with first 25 G series became the G-1 block et seq circa September which allowed the K series designation to pass to the single tail program at that late date. The H debuted in then last days of June. The Convairs in Aug (CO) and September (CF).

The HAD continued production line style modification for the 5,7,and 13 AFs in slightly different armament from April thru September with the last 15 or 16 straggelers delivered in by Jan1944. A total of nearly 300 were modified with about 275 by September 1943. These therefore comprised the bulk of the pre-factory B-24D1 (with nose turrets).

Also continuing into 1944 were former AAFAC planes modified into SB-24D1 snoopers and LAB search and inderdiction day/night bombers. MAD and OCAD did the work.

By mid- 1944 the five plants in the B-24 pool were producing six types of Emerson nosed B-24J. NAA and CO used the NAA B-24K designed(produced as the G and J series); Ford with Douglas and 57 CF used an improved H design and CF indigenious manufacture used yet another design All but about 200 of these Emerson nosed J-CF were lend lease, including those that eventual were in India and returned to US decades later as gate guards and flying examples. The L and M continues with slight variations those noses used in the J series from CO and Ford.

A sperical Emerson turret was the preferred choice of the AAF in early 1943 even before the A-15 ( then plaanned for tails of B-24) were modified and allocated to nose use. Prototyped on a NAA B-24G, the Ford B-24N finally adapted the spherical Emerson in its prototype and service test final pre-production series.

A few experements with the Bell booster as used in many B-26 and later B-25 tails were not allocated to the B-24 program.

PCM 2000

Edited December 15, 2010 by Phil marchese

[Phil marchese]

As I ve stated many years ago on up to 4 different forums the only 2 way B-24H identification feature is the 5 section lower nose windows before the modification of the commom modification to add the trapazoidal bombadier scannining windows which , when present, raises the total to seven. ©. Phil Marchese 1998 all rights reserved.

* by two way I mean only the H series has the feature and in conjuction, no other series has the feature.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Phil marchese

[B24RESEARCHER]

I recommend you find someone with a copy of my new book, "Consolidated Mess", and look at the photos, drawings and manual page reproductions for a fairly complete and well-illustrated examination of the H and J noses (Ls and Ms, too, for that matter) and their differences. I say "fairly" as it is clear that research on the B-24 can NEVER END!!! It is unquestionably the most fooled-around-with aircraft from the factory floor to the combat unit ramp of any aircraft in WWII and new information is constantly coming forward.

Always ask someone who posts here or elsewhere for the specific documentary references he/she is using to back up their statements! Then ask them for copies so you can start building a strong reference library of original-source information.

Alan Griffith

Aviation Author/Researcher/Illustrator

[Phil marchese]

Well this poster for one is well researched and collaborated with researchers far more experienced than yourself. Based upon your released drawing you clearly and emphatically demonstrated not the least basic knowleedge og the B-24H and its transitionally steps during the Ford J into the L series. The sample profile was a mess. Like most if not all of the nose turreted kits your drawing was as ficticious composite and the very point of the regimented Ford manufacturing processes as reflected in a fairly uniform paint scheme, you also misrepressented. Anyone with two good pictures of an undamaged H-FO witll have all the.research material needed to self evaluate the drawing. From the drawingn whatever conclusions one can extrapolate to your overall scholarship is like all product comments here ultimately cavit emptor.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Phil marchese

[Phil marchese]

A reminder...the use of caps as a manner of emphasis is not acceptable here.

[Alvis 3.1]

A reminder from somebody who is an actual real live ARC Moderator that personal squabbling between two posters is becoming tedious and will not be tolerated. Period. If you have conflicting information, fine. Post it, and lay off the whining.

Al P

ARC Moderation Team

[Phil marchese]

I posted a full delineation of the developement of the Ford S curve on this forum several years ago that is presented in progressive development. A search on the B-24 Ford S curve should resurface the post. I checked it last week and it was available. Period.

[Alvis 3.1]

That's great news Phil! If you rediscover the post, link it into this thread, so it's easier for everyone to find. Thanks,

Alvis 3.1

[B24RESEARCHER]

A nice write-up by Joe Baugher on the B-24Ds, but - based on a very quick read-through - with a couple of mistakes and ommissions.

First, there was another nose-turreted D-mod carried on at the Middleton Air Depot specific to ASW aircraft. I don't have my data right in front of me, but they were similar to the Oklahoma City (OCAD) Mods with a major visual difference being in the side windows on the lower front nose. On the OCAD mods the side windows were in a straight line with one another. On the Middleton mods they were at a slight upward angle with the front window being higher than the rear.

Second, only the Hawaiian Air Depot (HAD) nose-turret mods going to the 5th AF were labeled D1, with that identifier being placed on the aircraft record card to differentiate it from the standard Ds, so you could have both a B-24D-125-CO and a B-24D1-125-CO in the 5th. The OCAD, MAD (Middleton) and 7AF and 13AF remained Ds, although you sometimes see them called D1s as an easy pnemonic device to know they'd had the nose mod. Aside from the nose they had in common, 5AF mods differed from those for the 7AF and 13AF. The 5AF typically (though not always) had the bottom turret removed where present and had a hand-held twin .50cal gun turret installed. 7AF and 13AF aircraft had the tail turret removed and replaced by a hand-held twin .50 cal mount. Some aircraft received BOTH mods - incorrectly, but also shown in my book. Part of the HAD mod was also to replace the tail bumper with an 8-inch rubber wheel to eliminate damage to the aircraft from being towed backwards into their revetments. Again, all shown in photos and drawings.

Third, the first nose-turreted B-24 was not 41-23759 to my knowledge. The serial number of the first HAD-nosed B-24 is still unknoown and the topic of occasionally heated debate, with one person believing it is one SN and pretty much everyone else believing it is another. Both may be wrong. What IS known is that it was used in the December, 1942 raid from Midway on Wake Island. Photos of this aircraft appear in my book, "Consolidated Mess", I believe for the first time in print and gathered from photos of aircraft preparing for this raid found at the National Archives II. Folowing the Wake Island raid the airplane appears to have been sent back to the U.S. for testing and analysis. B-24D1-5-CO 5AF 90BG 321BS s/n 41-23765 "Connell's Special" was the second aircraft so modified and in Australia and the first to see extended combat ops. The nose turret used on the "Connell's Special" mod was the tail turret from another wrecked B-24. I don't recall the SN, so that may be 41-23759.

The story of the nose-turret modified Ds is an interesting one and all three mods (HAD, OCAD and MAD) are covered at some length in "Consolidated Mess", for the first time with numerous photos, drawings and blue-print reproductions.

Finally, aircraft built to the D configuration but having different variant identifiers were the B-24E built by Ford and the first 24 B-24G-1s built by North American. Then again, these weren't officially "Ds" so Joe correctly left them out.

I hope this helps. The B-24 is an incredibly complex aircraft and story, and no small snippets here from me will ever do it justice or fully tell the story.

Alan Griffith

Aviation Author/Researcher/Illustrator

[RAF Liberators]

Hey all

I know it's an old thread but just thought I'd say thanks for the info. I'm not B-24 expert, I just have a passing interest. I'm mainly interested in it's use by the RAF and Commonwealth but I'm always reading and reading found this robust discussion enlightening, thanks. Also thanks for the plug, yes the document linked is incomplete I don't think the information will ever be finished. Joe Baugher kindly gave me permission to use all of his published docs on the site so you'll find them up there now.

I've recently had a big boost to morale and I've been adding new content and updating the documents like a mad person, we also have some new "staff" members who have finally started to help me make the site how I envisioned it to be 14 years ago when it started as acseac.co.uk

Anyway thanks again and keep up the good work, and if any of you nice gentlemen have anything you would like to add to the site please just give me a yell, I'm always on the lookout for new material and research.

Gary

RAF Liberator Squadrons - www.rafb24.com

Edited May 10, 2012 by RAF Liberators