Some Pics from Army Flight Test...

[Loach Driver]

Not the Huey.. but have you seen this video of various float tests?

Thanks for that video link.

My question about the autorotation testing was in relation to the aerodynamic effects the deployed floats might have on the upward airflow that would turn the rotor. I think the autorotational performance of the main rotor on the Apache is adversely affected by the armament "wings". I would guess that the floats aren't big enough to have too bad an effect on the rotor system on that Huey.

Just as a side-note to autorotations to water, I was in contact recently with a former Hughes Test Pilot. He mentioned a story about having to test the lighting system that Hughes developed for use on the Hughes 500 when fitted with floats. This lighting system would provide enough illumination to allow the pilot make a safe, full autorotational landing onto water at night. In order to get the lighting system certified, my friend had to perform SIXTY full autorotations to a water landing, AT NIGHT! And it wasn't in to some nice, shallow, smooth, in-land lake. These certification flights were carried out on the open ocean. Suddenly, being a test pilot doesn't seem so glamourous! :)

LD.

[thatguy96]

Not to completely dig up an old portion of this thread, but I figured since we talked about the SS-11/AGM-22 missile and subsystems little in depth a few pages ago that people might be interested in this.

Its a pretty poor picture I'll admit. It comes from the scan of Report NR AVN 2260, dated 6 June 1960, dealing with the helicopter mounted SS-11 ATGM system. I had not known before I saw this report (now available online through DTIC/STINET) that the original system had a stowed position. That's what is shown in the picture I copied out from the online version of the report. I figured people might be interested to see it. I certainly was.

The report itself only mentions it as the "SS-11 system," lending weight to the theory that the "XM11" nomenclature was just a contraction of this. The report recommends the creation of a kit version of the system that could be readily mounted onto any HU-1 helicopter. This would likely be the XM22 system using the Bell Universal Mounts. The report also recommends the standardization of such a system as Type A, so I assume that this system was not intended to be standardized at all. Its looking more and more like this system never received a designation.

[EDWMatt]

Thanks for that video link.

My question about the autorotation testing was in relation to the aerodynamic effects the deployed floats might have on the upward airflow that would turn the rotor. I think the autorotational performance of the main rotor on the Apache is adversely affected by the armament "wings". I would guess that the floats aren't big enough to have too bad an effect on the rotor system on that Huey.

Just as a side-note to autorotations to water, I was in contact recently with a former Hughes Test Pilot. He mentioned a story about having to test the lighting system that Hughes developed for use on the Hughes 500 when fitted with floats. This lighting system would provide enough illumination to allow the pilot make a safe, full autorotational landing onto water at night. In order to get the lighting system certified, my friend had to perform SIXTY full autorotations to a water landing, AT NIGHT! And it wasn't in to some nice, shallow, smooth, in-land lake. These certification flights were carried out on the open ocean. Suddenly, being a test pilot doesn't seem so glamourous!

LD.

Yup, we did do "simulated autorotations" (rotor de-coupled with the engine at idle). Helicopter didn't care whether the floats were out or not. Other than the initially alarming oscillation at low speeds and some rather odd deformation of the floats in sideward flight (simulating hovering in winds), it didn't make much difference when the floats were deployed, which lead us to the conclusion that there would be no problem reaching a landing site if the floats accidentally deployed.

Worked Apaches for many years, but can't comment on the difference in autorotational characteristics with stores. We never did autorotational descent performance or true height-velocity testing on mult-engine helicopters, as the Army's position was that the chances of having a dual engine failure were remote. Of course, one of my buddies at Bell had a dual-engine failure in a 212 during an OGE hover check due to contaminated fuel....

[EDWMatt]

Good stuff as always guys. I haven't been posting much lately, but that pic of the former NASA support Huey made me think of this one. Although it's not "flight test" it was too hard to resist posting it here. I can't read the tail to see if it's the same bird Matt posted above or not. Anyway, I hope you will excuse the tangent.

Ray

Oh, that's a classic shot, Ray! The Huey in the picture is not 331, but 67-17145, which was the usual Shuttle support Huey. 145 is somewhat interesting in that it spent it's entire career at Edwards, coming right from Bell until it was 'de-mil'ed in 1994 or so. I've seen a data base that says 145 is a static display somewhere, but that's either a mistake or the display aircraft is mis-marked, 'cause I saw 145 smashed flat as a pancake. When the Army started to draw down the active duty Huey fleet, a bunch of the aircraft were slated to be 'de-militarized', and 145 was one. All the valuable components (dynamic system, instruments, etc) were removed and the remaining airframe was crushed with a 10-ton weight dropped from a crane. We did it in the storage yard at AEFA, and the helicopter was about 18" high when we were done. Real shame, that airframe had about 2500 total hours on it.

Here's a shot of 145 with the stabilized camera seat installed for a shuttle landing:

Interestingly, one of my first tasks upon coming to NASA, working on the X-38 program, was to get an Airworthiness Release to install the camera seat in a YPG Huey. Since I had connections in the Huey office at AVSCOM engineering, this was a relatively easy task (well, as easy as working with Forrest in the Huey office ever was!)

[rotorwash]

Good stuff as always, gentlemen! Matt, thanks for the info on 145. Sorry to hear she ended up squashed though B)

I thought we might go a little old school tonight. These are from back in the ACR (Aerial Combat Reconnaissance) platoon days and reflect the diversity of weapons that were hung on helos by "Vanderpool's Fools." I'm sure Joe will be along shortly with more detailed info about these systems. Enjoy!

Ray

ACR OH-13 fitted with two French SS-10 missiles (this was the grandaddy of the M-22 system)

Various lengths of rocket tubes were tested early on to find the optimal length for accuracy and practicality. This H-19 is fitted with T-214 10 ft. tubes firing 15 2 in. FFAR rockets. The tubes were found to be (surprise, surprise) rather awkward but did add significantly to the rocket's accuracy (40%) over the 6 foot tubes. Also, on at least one occasion the tubes did not allow for expansion of the rocket and some of the tubes went with the rockets when they were fired! The 2 inch rocket lost out to the 2.75 inch FFAR due to the corrosive effects and bad smoke trail of the former.

Here is an H-21C firing 2.75 inch rockets from belly mounted pods.

H-21C fitted with a .50 Cal B-29 gun turret designed by GE for the ACR but it exceeded weight limitations. Too bad, we could have used a couple of these at Ap Bac.

Edited April 13, 2010 by rotorwash

[thatguy96]

Not much to add to those descriptions. Using Griminger's letter assignments, the first picture is of Kit K, the second is of Kit T, the third is Kit P, and the last is of Kit O. Kit T was apparently also fitted to an H-34 series helicopter at some point. The thought process behind Kit O seems to have led to the Emerson XM153 fire suppression kit.

It appears from the picture that the third picture is of Kit P using the 6' tubes, though its not entirely easy to tell. I also can't tell if the machine guns are fitted. Kits M, N, P, and Q, all basically used the mounting hardware. The mount allowed for the carriage of two rocket assemblies along with two .50 caliber AN/M2 machine guns and two .30 caliber AN/M2 machine guns. Variants of each were tested with and without all or some of the guns. Kit M used the 8 cm Oerlikon rocket. Kit N used the 2.75" FFAR rocket in conjunction with pods built by Packmeyer, Inc. Kit P used the 2.75" FFAR rocket in conjunction with six-tube packs built by the ACR. Kit Q used the 2" T214 in similar six-tube packs. Both Kit P and Kit Q were tested with 6' and 10' tubes.

[arkhunter2002]

H-21C fitted with a .50 Cal B-29 gun turret designed by GE for the ACR but it exceeded weight limitations. Too bad, we could have used a couple of these at Ap Bac.

Now that is just plain cool! Any more pics?

Take care,

Austin

[hovering]

Now that is just plain cool! Any more pics?

Take care,

Austin

yeah.. looks great!

Any photos of it on the ground.. that gun hangs down a bit.

[rotorwash]

Now that is just plain cool! Any more pics?

Take care,

Austin

yeah.. looks great!

Any photos of it on the ground.. that gun hangs down a bit.

Is the pope a member of a popular non-protestant denomination?! Here ya go. The guns are missing from the black and white pics on the ground. The color photo is the only color photo of the system I have seen thus far. Enjoy!

[arkhunter2002]

Thanks Ray!

[BrittMac]

Those are remarkable pics. Learn something new everyday!

Thanks Ray,

Brandon

[hovering]

Thanks Ray... fantastic detail photos... looks great with a gun under the nose.

If they were having weight issues with that mount.. I cant imagine the troubles they'd have when it would be beefed up.

I like the pitot tube extension.

[rotorwash]

Glad you guys like em. Hopefully you will make the "US Army Flight Test" thread your first stop when you are looking for that out of the ordinary build. I think we all owe Matt a big "thank you" for starting this thread. I am having a blast and learning a LOT as well!

Ray

[kuman]

Hi Matt

Could I also trouble you for some more pics of that OH-58D(I) as above? I also feel a modelling project coming on

I'm curious as to the shade of brown on the front section of the dog box (?). Would that be due to the material it's made of?

Thanks

Grant

hi Matt...

i'm building a OH-58D and the scheme you posted above is very nice.

care to share some more pics of the above OH-58D as well?

and the yellow is Chromate color right? anyone know of the mixture or the equivalent paint for Gunze or Tamiya Acrylic?

thanks in advance

kuman

[EDWMatt]

Glad you guys like em. Hopefully you will make the "US Army Flight Test" thread your first stop when you are looking for that out of the ordinary build. I think we all owe Matt a big "thank you" for starting this thread. I am having a blast and learning a LOT as well!

Ray

Ray,

I started this thread for the very reason you mention - to try to provide some inspiration for other modelers out there looking for something interesting to build. There are some 'weird and wonderful' test aircraft out there that most people have never seen. I sure appreciate you participation with your fantastic archives. I'm still digging through my stuff, but have more coming (how about some Special Ops stuff?) when my job duties allow me to get to it.

I love that OH-13 with the SS-11s. I think that's going to be a new project for me soon.

[EDWMatt]

hi Matt...

i'm building a OH-58D and the scheme you posted above is very nice.

care to share some more pics of the above OH-58D as well?

and the yellow is Chromate color right? anyone know of the mixture or the equivalent paint for Gunze or Tamiya Acrylic?

thanks in advance

kuman

Kuman,

I've replied to your PM with another shot.

As to colors. I'm working this helo in 1/35th and have put together a collection of colors. There were several shades of chromate on that bird, but most of it was that horrible, bright, almost-dayglo yellow/green Mil-Spec 377 primer that seems to go on everything now. I'm not sure about Gunze, but Tamiya yellow-green is a pretty good place to start.

Some of the other colors I'm using are Testors Acrylic yellow chromate (which is yellower than Tamiya) and an old bottle of Monogram Pro-Modeller Chromate (which is sort of yellow-brown). I also have some Testors enamel Zinc Chromate (in the small bottles) which is sort of a bright yellow.

The green is regular Army CARC Aircraft Green. The only really good match for that is the Testors Acrylic Helo Drab (the enamel is too gray), though in a pinch you might be able to get away with Tamiya Black Green. The front of the rotor doghouse was a fiberglass color. Tamiya Buff might be a good choice, and the little orange flight test pieces were International Orange.

Good luck with your project!

[Loach Driver]

I'm still digging through my stuff, but have more coming (how about some Special Ops stuff?) when my job duties allow me to get to it.

Matt, this sounds good. This thread is easily one of the best on ARC in the last year. Thanks for starting it and thanks to Ray and everyone else for contributing.

LD.

[thatguy96]

This thread is easily one of the best on ARC in the last year. Thanks for starting it and thanks to Ray and everyone else for contributing.

Agreed. Between this and the Helo Proposals Thread, its the one I most look forward to updates in.

[kuman]

Kuman,

I've replied to your PM with another shot.

As to colors. I'm working this helo in 1/35th and have put together a collection of colors. There were several shades of chromate on that bird, but most of it was that horrible, bright, almost-dayglo yellow/green Mil-Spec 377 primer that seems to go on everything now. I'm not sure about Gunze, but Tamiya yellow-green is a pretty good place to start.

Some of the other colors I'm using are Testors Acrylic yellow chromate (which is yellower than Tamiya) and an old bottle of Monogram Pro-Modeller Chromate (which is sort of yellow-brown). I also have some Testors enamel Zinc Chromate (in the small bottles) which is sort of a bright yellow.

The green is regular Army CARC Aircraft Green. The only really good match for that is the Testors Acrylic Helo Drab (the enamel is too gray), though in a pinch you might be able to get away with Tamiya Black Green. The front of the rotor doghouse was a fiberglass color. Tamiya Buff might be a good choice, and the little orange flight test pieces were International Orange.

Good luck with your project!

Matt,

thanks for the shot..

the color call-out you mentioned above is also very useful indeed.

i think i read somewhere that the Tamiya XF-4 also a close match to the chromate color.

i'll try to source for some of the color you mentioned locally and see if i can find it else will need to mix and match then.

Thanks again :D :)

[Longbow Mech]

Is the pope a member of a popular non-protestant denomination?! Here ya go. The guns are missing from the black and white pics on the ground. The color photo is the only color photo of the system I have seen thus far. Enjoy!

I love these pics Ray! Awesome find my friend.

Brock

[Youngtiger1]

Man this is becoming a great thread. I love test birds both jets and helo. May I ask if you guys have any more photos of AH-64. I've got a revell kit that I would like to build it into a test helo. TIA.

Mike

[rotorwash]

Man this is becoming a great thread. I love test birds both jets and helo. May I ask if you guys have any more photos of AH-64. I've got a revell kit that I would like to build it into a test helo. TIA.

Mike

Mike,

Here's you a little inspiration. First, very early YAH-64 with T-tail:

I wasn't aware that more than one T-tail was built, but the pics don't lie. Also, these have the full length sponsons. I assume they are still YAH-64's.

If you wanted to go with 1/72, the Hsagawa kit comes with markings for this bird:

Here's a few more of 03 and 05. The first pic below and the one above look to have fake guns. Were these just for looks or were they to simulate the aerodynamics of the real thing?:

Here are a couple of a test rig I hope Matt can tell us more about. I have no idea what the pods under the stub wings are for:

Finally, I think this pic will help a LOT when it comes time to build a test boom:

HTH

Ray

Edited April 16, 2010 by rotorwash

[arkhunter2002]

Wait wait wait, what is on the nose of the yellow 06 in the first and third picture of it. Is that just a standard FLIR turret or what?

Another question. Why does the original T tail bird have a short rotor mast and what caused them to change it?

TIA,

Austin

BTW, I never knew the YAH-64 was that much different than even the production a models (short sponsons and all)

Edit: anyone thought about getting this topic pinned?

Edited April 16, 2010 by arkhunter2002

[rotorwash]

Wait wait wait, what is on the nose of the yellow 06 in the first and third picture of it. Is that just a standard FLIR turret or what?

Another question. Why does the original T tail bird have a short rotor mast and what caused them to change it?

TIA,

Austin

BTW, I never knew the YAH-64 was that much different than even the production a models (short sponsons and all)

Edit: anyone thought about getting this topic pinned?

Good eye, Austin. I think that was one of the tested, but not fielded, FLIR turrets. Here's a couple of better shots of it. I know Matt or Jon or somebody will have the skinny on it.

Ray

Edited April 16, 2010 by rotorwash

[thatguy96]

I have no idea what the pods under the stub wings are for

From the underside shots provided, they look a lot like "cartridge dispensers" I've seen associated with either photoflash cartridges or ones for cloud seeding. That's my best guess. I'm sure Matt will be able to clue us in.