Collings Foundation Tour

[ipms33206]

The B-24J 'Witchcraft' and the B-17G 'Nine O Nine' are here in Bozeman over the holiday weekend. My son and I went down to the airport to do some photography. I had no intention of doing the walkthrough so I thought I would be able to go on the tarmac just like all years before and take some photos. NOT SO!! To even take photos of the outsides you have to pay the $12 a head to get on the tarmac. Yes that would also get you a tour through both aircraft. But I have a back issue and I would not be able to do that. So I did not get any photos. This is the first time anywhere I have been that I was required to pay a fee just to see the planes! The guy at the gate, who was very pompus, said it was to pay for the gas. I thought that is what the rides were for??? The TP-51C is here too and it is kept out of view even from the fence. Just to keep things clear, it was the Foundation charging to get on the tarmac not the airport. Since they do not own the airport or the hanger, is that legal?

[thegoodsgt]

Interesting. I don't have a definitive answer, but the airport is private property, so if the airport authorities are cooperating with the Foundation, I imagine they could restrict your ability to stand near a fence or other open are to shoot photographs. That said, I can imagine how expensive those planes are to operate, so a small fee doesn't seem unreasonable.

Either way, I would encourage you to send your feedback directly to the Foundation.

[ipms33206]

I have sent an EMail to the Foundation. Not sure what good that will do but it makes me feel better. If they keep charging just to look at the planes, families will not come out to see their stuff. I was not the only one not happy about the situation out there. Several people that arrived at the same time as I did not go in either.

[ipms33206]

I got a respose back from the Foundation and I am not impressed. First of all it sounds as if is canned, pre written to send to any complaint. Second their math does not add up. They say it costs $4,000 an hour to operate the plane. CAF says it is around $1400 an hour. Below is their response to me:

Hello,

We have been conducting the Wings of Freedom Tour for 21 years. We have always had a fee at the gate for close access to the aircraft. The area that is roped off around our aircraft is an area that we are put in charge of so that people do not wander around the airport, so that gate fee is charged at the entry to that area. The gate fee is used to pay for the aircraft to fly into the city at no charge to the city or airport. The fee from the rides offsets the cost of flying the ride. The ride revenue does not go towards the $4,000 per hour per airplane it costs us to fly into a city. We would not be able to tour these aircraft without the gate fee, because if we spend $15,000-$20,000 to fly into a city, there is no guarantee that we are going to do any flights at all. It cost us more to fly to Bozeman from Kalispell than we had in total ride revenue for the entire weekend. That is why we charge to get close access to the aircraft. Without the gate fee and t-shirt sales, the planes would be parked at some central airport in the US, and people would have to go to them instead of them coming to your local airport. We feel that we reach more people by going to 110 locations throughout the country each year, and the only way we can afford to do that is to have a gate fee. We see the gate fee the same as paying to go see a movie together, paying to go to an amusement park, or paying to go into a museum. It is something that I wish we could offer for free so that the education of the next generation did not cost anything, but until a large sponsor steps up and pays for the tour, we have to charge the admission to get onto the ramp for close access to the aircraft.

Collings Foundation

And since when is seeing a couple of aircraft the same as a movie or an amusement park???

[jimz66]

Mark every time I have gone to see them. I have had to pay a fee.

[modelhead]

The Collings Foundation was here in Ft. Myers, FL this past winter and there was no fee for looking at the B-17, B-24 and P-51. You couldn't walk up to the aircraft but they were still close enough for some good pic's.

Tom

[ipms33206]

This is the first year both here and in Seattle that they wanted a fee. And before you could walk right up to the planes.

[ST0RM]

The aircraft are private property owned by the CF. If they choose to ask payment to view aircraft they've sunk money into, then I see no issues with it. I couldn't come close to a flight on any warbird, but I gladly donate or pay a fee when the aircraft are nearby to photograph.

-JS

[strikeeagle801]

This is the first year both here and in Seattle that they wanted a fee. And before you could walk right up to the planes.

They charged last year in Seattle. I remember because I could not afford to do it then either. The guy practically bit my head off for standing at the gate to get a picture without having to shoot through the fence. This year, however, I could have snuck right in...the guy taking the cash was talking to a WWII vet and did not even notice me standing a foot or two inside the gate snapping away at the B-17. Honestly, if my son was standing with me at the time, I probably would've kept on going. I would gladly pay to take a tour inside the bombers, but I'm not really willing to pay $12 to stand near them and take a few pictures.

Aaron

[Karaya-1]

The last time they were here in Indy, no one asked me for any fee - and I filled a couple of 2 GigaByte memory cards.

If I could afford to drop the coin for a ride, I'd go in a heartbeat.

One thing I WOULD really like to see, though - I heard they bought one of the Stormbirds Me262 replicas - I'd like to see them take THAT on tour with the bombers - I'd dearly LOVE to see that thing in the air.

-Kevin in Indy

[Steve N]

The 262 is supposed to be with the rest of the Collings aircraft at Thunder Over Michigan next month. I understand they're trying to get the last of the bugs worked out before she's ready to fly.

SN

[thegoodsgt]

I'm glad someone took the time to contact the Foundation. As with any organization or company's response, you may not like the answer but at least you know where they stand.

Personally, a couple of pictures generally aren't worth $12 to me, but then as aviation enthusiasts, it does make sense that we step up and support the Foundation's efforts. It would be hypocritical of me to bemoan the scrapping of F-14s in a boneyard out west but not pay $12 to enjoy spending a little time in the shadow of history.

[ipms33206]

I don't think it was the fee that really got me, it was the fact that there was no mention of it on their web site or even on the posters at the airport and other locations. All they said was the fee to go in the bombers and of course the flights. And as I had said before, I have been able to walk right up to the planes and take photos no questions asked.

[11bee]

I've seen them in Plymouth, MA a few times. This is a public airport and if you wanted to stay away from the aircraft, you could take pix to your heart's content. If you wanted to get in close (and take the walkthrough of both aircraft) you had to pay the fee. I see no issues with this at all. Honestly, the cost of operating these planes is astronomical and from what one of the staff told me, the money they make selling a few rides doesn't come close to paying for everything.

It's living history and they are doing a great job. Well worth $12 in any case. If, at the end of the day you feel otherwise, don't spend the money. You have the final say in the matter.

Regards,

John

[blunce]

Last time I saw them they were at the Olympia airshow, and I walked all around snapping tons of pictures. Didn't pay a dime, until I wanted to do the walk through. Pretty lame I think to charge people just to get close; Inside, sure, but walk around it? Puhleez

[zerosystem]

I've seen them in Plymouth, MA a few times. This is a public airport and if you wanted to stay away from the aircraft, you could take pix to your heart's content. If you wanted to get in close (and take the walkthrough of both aircraft) you had to pay the fee. I see no issues with this at all. Honestly, the cost of operating these planes is astronomical and from what one of the staff told me, the money they make selling a few rides doesn't come close to paying for everything.

It's living history and they are doing a great job. Well worth $12 in any case. If, at the end of the day you feel otherwise, don't spend the money. You have the final say in the matter.

Regards,

John

well said John, fyi b-17 liberty belle is going to be up in lawrence (yeah i know) this weekend. it was one of the aircraft that was wrecked at neam when the tornado ran through there years ago. its been fully restored and doing a couple of local stops...unfortunately thats the closest right now.

-peter

[Vesper]

This is kinda weird 'cuz the few times I've been able to see their aircraft I could walk around on the ramp for free, but if I wanted to get up close & personal then I'd have to pay to play (sounds like I'm picking up a hooker).

Ves

[ipms33206]

I guess there was an interesting situation when the aircraft arrived. The host aviation service allowed people on the ramp to witness the aircraft arriving. After they landed, one of the crew ran over to the receptionist and screamed her out because they didn't charge the people to be out there! :unsure: Isn't that the discression of the flight service???? And since the planes were not there at the time that the people were let on the ramp, the Foundation has no real right in asking them to be charged. To me, it sounds like the Collings Foundation is trying to become an 'elitest' organization.

[11bee]

I guess there was an interesting situation when the aircraft arrived. The host aviation service allowed people on the ramp to witness the aircraft arriving. After they landed, one of the crew ran over to the receptionist and screamed her out because they didn't charge the people to be out there! :lol: Isn't that the discression of the flight service???? And since the planes were not there at the time that the people were let on the ramp, the Foundation has no real right in asking them to be charged. To me, it sounds like the Collings Foundation is trying to become an 'elitest' organization.

Your description of these events is 180 degrees apart from what I have witnessed over the years (I've seen them 5 years in a row). Each time, I have noted that the personnel from this outfit have been friendly and courteous. They all seem to be airplane nuts and have been more than happy to shoot the bull about the aircraft. Every time I went, I observed plenty of folks who did not pay the $12, wandering around taking pictures and no one from the foundation ever voiced an issue.

Not sure if there were extenuating circumstances or other issues which you are leaving out but what I have seen over the years doesn't jive with your story at all. Maybe there was a safety concern with people wandering around the ramp while the planes were taxying in. Regardless, something smells a bit fishy here.

IMHO, the Collins Foundation are one of the "good guys" out there. Even if they aren't, $12 these days barely covers a meal at McDonalds. I would be hard pressed to whine about paying that in order to support a non-profit group that is devoted a cause like this.

John

Edited July 9, 2010 by 11bee

[ipms33206]

All I have done is report the facts based on observances and reports from other parties. The situation at the arrival was reported by an employee of the flight service. At this stop you could not talk to any of the personel, or even get anywhere close to the aircraft without paying the $12. In my research of this, I have found out that they are doing this practice selectively. Not all stops are charged to take photos or talk to the pilots and crew. I have not voiced any opinions here, only facts.

[jimh]

This is my first post on this forum. It was brought to my attention by a good friend of mine from warbirdinformationexchange.org. I'm here not to argue, or rant in any capacity. I've been with the Collings Foundation full time for 8 years. The Wings of Freedom Tour is in its 21st year, and from day one, as a 501c3 non profit organization has asked a nominal donation to tour or enter the ramp at a tour location. The ride program started in the middle 1990's as a way to further enhance the tour experience, fund the aircraft and future aquisitions. We are by definition an educational foundation and it is our goal to bring all eras of aviation history to life through flying aircraft. We operate everything from a Bleriot to an F-4 Phantom. For the most part it is self funding. We are all volunteers. The foundation covers our hotel expenses and atleast 1 rental car per tour stop. We travel to an average of 100 cities per year, it is a 7 day a week job. We love these aircraft and the veterans that made the history, it is why we do it...plain and simple. We fly under a Congressional Exemption and adhere to FAA policies as strict as airline service. The operating costs are astrinomical, without the gate fee and ride donations we could not operate. examples:

B-17/B-24 200 gallons per hour @ an average of $4.50 per gallon

R-1820 replacement $65,000

Ham Standard Prop $20-25,000 overhauled

Merlin Engine $220,000

Insurance $200,000 per year

the list goes on and on. We understand if someone doesn't have the means to support the airplanes...we also know what it takes TO support the airplanes. We cannot accomodate everyone. The aircraft do not come to each city free of charge therefore we need to generate income by charging a gate fee. We cannot apologize for that, otherwise thousands of people would have to drive to an airmuseum, generally hundreds of miles away at a greater expense than 12 bucks...AND not have the option of going for a flight experience AND not being able to climb inside the aircraft. Feel free to PM me or email at frenese@aol.com if you have any questions.

jim harley

B-24 pilot

PS the 262 is still being finished, fingers are crossed for Thunder but doubtful.

Edited July 10, 2010 by jimh