Measuring Paint Colors Using Adobe Photo Shop

[David Rapasi]

Paint colors can be measured in Adobe Photo Shop to get the Color Hue°, and the percentages of Saturation and Brightness, ( H:S:B: ).

The paint chips below are all quite close in Color Hue°.

The Color (HUE) is between 38° and 45°.

The SHADE of these color chips is what makes them appear so different.

The SHADE of a color is determined by it’s SATURATION (SAT), the percentage of COLOR HUE to the percentage of GRAY.

The BRIGHTNESS (BRT) of GRAY is determined by the percentage of WHITE to the percentage of BLACK.

Below is the Adobe Photo Shop Color Picker, measuring an ANA 613 color chip.

The vertical bar in the center is the Color Hue°.

I can scan color paint chips and measure them for comparison.

I also use the Adobe Color Picker to mix paint.

I spray my paint mix on plastic card stock and scan it into Photo Shop.

The paint chips are compared to see what changes need to be made in Hue, Saturation, and Brightness.

Color photos can also be scanned and the color hues measured.

When I get a good sample of the color hue from a color photo, I can compare these measurements to the ANA Color chip measurements.

This process will give a good indication of what color an aircraft is painted.

ANA 603 Sea Gray has a Hue of 208°

ANA 605 Insignia Blue has a Hue of 231°

ANA 611 Interior Green has a Hue of 84°

ANA 612 Medium Green has a Hue of 153°

ANA 613 Olive Drab has a Hue of 40°

Dave

Edited February 3, 2012 by David Rapasi

[Jennings]

That's all really nice and really interesting, but it has virtually nothing to do with what color real airplanes were painted. Trying to measure down to the n'th degree using an image found online that's god-only-knows how many generations removed from the original film positive image is pretty much fruitless.

You can do some historical research and you might or might not come up with some kind of reference about what color something was painted. The other 99% of the time you're left to take your best educated guess. But usually that's the best it gets.

[Nineoniner]

Adding to what Jennings said, but not to sound as rude.

Your theory is okay, and it makes sense what you are trying to achieve, but when you use online pictures you are not getting the real H:S:B

You are getting the H S B of shadows, and light, and the film. So even if you get close, you are not getting the values of the Brute color, lets call it that.

Now, if there was a super scanner that could get the H:S:B out of physical aircraft without degrading the color with it's fluorescent light that would make the life of everybody easier, and make those wicked RLM bastards (I kid :P) be quiet for good :D

[David Rapasi]

That's all really nice and really interesting, but it has virtually nothing to do with what color real airplanes were painted. Trying to measure down to the n'th degree using an image found online that's god-only-knows how many generations removed from the original film positive image is pretty much fruitless.

You can do some historical research and you might or might not come up with some kind of reference about what color something was painted. The other 99% of the time you're left to take your best educated guess. But usually that's the best it gets.

The photos of the Mustangs and the Thunderbolt interiors are from a collection of original WW II Photos. The interior of the Ventura is a recent photo posted on this forum.

All that I am doing is measuring the color hue from the photo and matching it to the ANA colors used in WW II, I think that is better than just guessing.

In 2004 a client sent me this “ original Mustang photoâ€Â.

He wanted all four Mustangs built in 1/48th scale using Tamiya kits and painted to match the photo.

This client also wanted all of his plastic models painted un-weathered with a slight gloss so they would match the appearance of his die cast collection.

E2*A, and E2*C were built as early Ds without the fin fillet.

I scanned his Mustang photo into Photo Shop and came up with the colors attached to this photo.

The color hues scanned verified my view of the colors on the first three aircraft, C, S, and A.

The forth aircraft, H, was painted with a mix of 25% OD and 75% Medium Green

The client approved all of the colors and paid for the finished models.

This is what was most important to me at that time, the client was satisfied.

Dave

Edited February 4, 2012 by David Rapasi

[Nineoniner]

The photos of the Mustangs and the Thunderbolt interiors are from a collection of original WW II Photos. The interior of the Ventura is a recent photo posted on this forum.

All that I am doing is measuring the color hue from the photo and matching it to the ANA colors used in WW II, I think that is better than just guessing.

In 2004 a client sent me this “ original Mustang photoâ€Â.

He wanted all four Mustangs built in 1/48th scale using Tamiya kits and painted to match the photo.

This client also wanted all of his plastic models painted un-weathered with a slight gloss so they would match the appearance of his die cast collection.

E2*A, and E2*C were built as early Ds without the fin fillet.

I scanned his Mustang photo into Photo Shop and came up with the colors attached to this photo.

The color hues scanned verified my view of the colors on the first three aircraft, C, S, and A.

The forth aircraft, H, was painted with a mix of 25% OD and 75% Medium Green

The client approved all of the colors and paid for the finished models.

This is what was most important to me at that time, the client was satisfied.

Dave

Well.. the issue here is that it is a fact there was not a blue E2 C. And it was all an effect caused by the pictures.

The photos are original sure. But you have to remember how they got into a computer. They might be radically different if you saw them in the flesh.

But if the costumers happy. Then who cares right? :D

[Stona]

I've been painting models for thirty years without needing a computer program to match the colour of some nth generation photograph taken on unknown film in unknown lighting using unknown filters and a whole heap of other unknowns.

I do where possible try to establish the original colours used and then make a concoction to REPRESENT that,in scale,on my models.

Threads like this make my head hurt. I always encourage other modellers to use a bit of artistic licence but the blue Mustang and Olive Drab of that anti-glare panel (on E2*S) are going beyond that,no matter what "Photoshop" might say.

Steve

[David Rapasi]

Well.. the issue here is that it is a fact there was not a blue E2 C. And it was all an effect caused by the pictures.

The photos are original sure. But you have to remember how they got into a computer. They might be radically different if you saw them in the flesh.

But if the costumers happy. Then who cares right? :D

E2*C is painted ANA 603 Sea Gray, which is very close in color to FS 36118 Gunship Gray.

In March of 1942 RAF Extra Dark Sea Gray replaced QMS #43 Neutral Gray.

Later RAF Extra Dark Sea Gray became known as Sea Gray and was given the ANA number of 603.

Dave

[David Rapasi]

I've been painting models for thirty years without needing a computer program to match the colour of some nth generation photograph taken on unknown film in unknown lighting using unknown filters and a whole heap of other unknowns.

I do where possible try to establish the original colours used and then make a concoction to REPRESENT that,in scale,on my models.

Threads like this make my head hurt. I always encourage other modellers to use a bit of artistic licence but the blue Mustang and Olive Drab of that anti-glare panel (on E2*S) are going beyond that,no matter what "Photoshop" might say.

Steve

The Mustang is painted Sea Gray ANA 603.

The nose of E2*S is painted ANA 612 Medium Green not ANA 613 O.D.

Dave

[Nineoniner]

E2*C is painted ANA 603 Sea Gray, which is very close in color to FS 36118 Gunship Gray.

In March of 1942 RAF Extra Dark Sea Gray replaced QMS #43 Neutral Gray.

Later RAF Extra Dark Sea Gray became known as Sea Gray and was given the ANA number of 603.

Dave

Uhm no.. not really, E2 C was never painted any other color other than OD, hell no aircraft from the 361st, this has been discussed for decades.

The only american planes that I recall were painted in RAF colors were P-47's and P-51MKIII, other than that I've never seen a USAF squadron carrying RAF camo.

Here, better quality scan.

they all look OD to me.

[tourist]

This is very interesting but if you want this to have any scientific value you have to do it on several pictures of the same subject taken in different conditions.

A picture is subject to all sorts of factors that can sometimes dramatically alter the result and that's before it's even developed and printed, let alone scanned.

I have several other pictures that clearly show that E2*S had the same color on the anti glare panel as it did on the rest of the fuselage.

Which picture better represents the reality?

I have taken cockpit pictures of a P-51D a few years ago, the plane was in a hangar (controlled environment), no flash was used and still some of the pictures show completely different colors.

Which ones would you choose for your test?

All you can say with certainty is "that's what this specific picture looks like when analyzed with Photoshop", not "that's what these planes color was".

I think the possibility of Sea Gray on LOU IV's repainted areas is intriguing...

[tourist]

Nineoniner, there is no way this is a better scan.

All the colors have been heavily altered.

[Nineoniner]

Nineoniner, there is no way this is a better scan.

All the colors have been heavily altered.

By better scan, I meant not as resized as the original, resizing pictures without vectorizing them causes enormous image quality loss.

Plus, it shows the point. All 4 aircraft look the same color.

[David Rapasi]

Uhm no.. not really, E2 C was never painted any other color other than OD, hell no aircraft from the 361st, this has been discussed for decades.

The only american planes that I recall were painted in RAF colors were P-47's and P-51MKIII, other than that I've never seen a USAF squadron carrying RAF camo.

Here, better quality scan.

they all look OD to me.

The reason for the quality of the scan of the four Mustangs in my article is, the photo was printed on a textured photo paper, a very expensive process during WW II.

ANA 603 Sea Gray is an American color not British.

Dave

[Otto]

You can never go by an antique color picture. Old color film will do funny things. If it is a modern picture I even wouldn't trust it. Some film leans toward red some toward blue some toward green and some toward yellow. I studied photography in College and unless a photographer takes extreme care with exposure measurements and selection of film, the colors are seldom true in a photo. Examples. the picture in the top is representative of actual color, the picture below taken with FujiChrome isn't. Take a look for example at the mech at the nose of the second picture. I have three pairs of those overalls. The color is nothing like that.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Otto

[Nineoniner]

The reason for the quality of the scan of the four Mustangs in my article is, the photo was printed on a textured photo paper, a very expensive process during WW II.

ANA 603 Sea Gray is an American color not British.

Dave

''In March of 1942 RAF Extra Dark Sea Gray replaced QMS #43 Neutral Gray.

Later RAF Extra Dark Sea Gray became known as Sea Gray and was given the ANA number of 603.''

When did it become Sea Gray? When were these 361st Mustang painted? Was it before, or after it had turned into an American Color?

Is there only one mustang that was not painted in standard silver/OD all around?

[David Rapasi]

You are all missing the point of this article.

I had three photos of these Mustangs, the one my client sent, and two photos from a book I found in the library.

All of them original and unaltered.

I had to come up with colors that were in use during WW II that looked like the colors in the photos.

I measured the color hue of the photos and matched them to ANA color chips.

The client was satisfied with the colors I painted his models.

If you have better ways of matching colors for model aircraft from this period I would like to know them, this is the only method I have.

Dave

[zipplex]

Guys

The problem with using Adobe to measure paint colors is unless your PC monitor is properly calibrated the results can be well off the mark.

Most monitors and graphics cards tend to be set with a 9300°K color temperature for their white point out of the box, which tends to give everything a bluish tint so some form of calibration needs to be done either through software or hardware to lower this down. Adobe Gamma which comes bundled with Photoshop is better than nothing BUT is very basic.

Si

[tourist]

You are all missing the point of this article.

...

I had to come up with colors that were in use during WW II that looked like the colors in the photos.

With all due respect I don't think we missed anything.

All you did was measure the colors as seen on these specific versions of the pictures, not as seen on the aircraft during WWII.

That's the difference I and others were trying to point out.

Also your research doesn't reflect the repainted areas clearly visible on several LOU IV pictures and other known subtleties of the "Bottisham Four".

[Rex]

David, maybe try to use a Non-controversial photo to illustrate your idea

I agree, if no one's idea can be used to figure this out,,,,then what is the better idea?

I posted on HS about 4 years ago, I made a plastic card with 4 or 5 paint samples of a few colors, I cut out a rectangle for the spot on the FS book page for that chip,,,,,,and posted a pic of it,,,,,,pointing out which paint company matched the colors, for about 3 different colors,,,the 3 I picked had a great match available, but from 3 different paint ranges

it was shot down, and I stopped doing them for public use, just for myself from then on

how was it shot down?

someone started off with " the monitor has to be calibrated to spec # blah, blah, blah", and a few other people jumped right in there

it really sounds like it would derail your idea,,,,,,except

if the paint swatches and the chip are In The Same Photo,,,,,,they could all be greens with a purple tint on your monitor, and greens with an orange tint on his monitor, and greens with a great tonal fidelity on mine,,,,,,the swatch that matches would STILL match,,,even if converted to gray scale

too many people are ready to shoot down, and not enough are posting a real way to just do it (and every single method comes under fire,,,,,,the only 2012 "right way" is down to "nyuk, nyuk, it looks like some sort of green or sumpin' to me",,,,,,anything more accurate is the "color Nazi" method

[timc]

The only american planes that I recall were painted in RAF colors were P-47's and P-51MKIII, other than that I've never seen a USAF squadron carrying RAF camo.

Um, the 357th most probably used RAF paints to camouflage many of their Mustangs. That from a statement in Merle Olmsteads book To War with the Yoxford Boys, the Complete Story of the 357th FG. He cites his authority based on his time as a crew chief in the 357th and due to the fact that lend lease worked both ways. He goes on to say that war materials such as paint were not a priority so only some found its way to the UK. Consequently when the decision was made to "green up" the aircraft that might be deployed to the Continent, RAF grays and greens were readily available. He further states that some aircraft were camo'd with OD and others RAF Dark Green/Grey. He leaves it up to the individual to determine which is correct for any given aircraft.

As far as getting colors from photoshop is concerned, I think that's akin to overengineering a project. However, that's just my opinion. You obviously have had success doing it so more power to you. I like to rely on contemporary documents such as technical orders, memo's and other things like that. Color photography, particularly in the 1940's was not what it is today. Coloration could be different depending on the development of the film as well as the film itself. So, having said that, I look at period color photographs as a guide of sorts to the correct color, not an absolute rendition of it. In my own case, I weigh what might have been put on there with what was possibly available to use. Like Christian, I find the application of the dark grey on the Mustang somewhat interesting.

[Rex]

but, Tim,,,,,,that is how this all goes around and around,,,,,for every guy like you that uses "colors available in the set at the time", plus looking at the picture, then choosing the paints,,,,,,,there are ten more shouting that "you can't use paint standards"

I do it just like you do,,,,,,I have a set of colors that would be used for the aircraft I model, a bunch of photos in color or black and white,,,,,and I pick colors from the "possible" set to model what I see in the pics

[Steve N]

Some years ago Dana Bell gave a seminar about US WWII colors and markings at the IPMS Naitonal Convention. He handed out a paper with a dozen color chips, ranging all over the spectrum of blues, greens, browns, even yellow and purple, and asked us to ID the various colors. After we'd all had fun guessing, he said "Nope..they're ALL Olive Drab." Each chip was "sampled" from different photos of various aircraft, all of which were actually painted OD. The purpose of the exercise was to demostrate that samping a color from a single photo is all but useless..even different pictures of the same aircraft will look radically different depending on the lighting conditions, type of light, film stock, processing, and printing.

Here's an interesting example. These are pictures of the cockpit of the sole surviving Curtiss XP-55 Ascender, which I assume to be the standard "Curtiss Cockpit Green" used on P-40s. The first photo shows the cockpit when the aircraft first arrived at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo after decades of storage at the Smithsonian..this is a scan of a print, which I shot it on 33mm film with flash. I punched up the contrast a bit after scanning, but left the original colors of the photos alone.

And here is the same aircraf after it was put on display. The exterior was repainted, but the cockpit was simply cleaned and left in it's original condition. This was shot on a digital camera with flash. As you can see, even though the paint is exactly the same (other than removal of some superficial dust and dirt) the colors show up as radically different.

Since I personally took both sets of photos, and followed the restoration process, I can confirm the the actual colors in the cockpit are unchanged.

Here's another example. Both are of the same aircraft, from the same vantage point, taken within seconds of one another..one with flash, one without. As you can see, the colors appear very different.

The bottom line is this: while color photos are certainly useful, all they can do is get you in the ballpark..and even then, as the examples above show, they can give you wildly different results. You have to take into account the lighting, photographic medium, and processing. When it comes to figuring out the actual paint colors, you have to cross-reference photographic evidence with other sources of information. Even then, it still comes down to making your best guess based on an analysis of ALL the info.

SN

[tourist]

Thank you Steve, as mentioned earlier in this thread I've had the same experience photographing a Mustang cockpit.

Great pictures BTW.

[tornado64]

to some degree checking colours on photo's can be an average aid to reaserch but only used alongside given knowns !! this method is a practical impossibility to give a correct paint colour as there are too many variables

what type of light was it exposed in ??? inside ?? outside ?? mid day ?? evening all can give difrent subtle colour casts

what film stock was originaly used ??? ideas on correct colour varied wildly when colour film was still in its infancy !!

what developing techniques were used and what colour filtration was used whilst printing the photo ??

how many people has it gone through with thier own take on what is the right colour during processing ??

where do you take your sample from ?? and which is correct ?? in the shade ?? bright higlights ?? without refrence how do you know what is the bang on average to take a test from ??

in reality you are not getting the correct paint colour !! what you are getting is the colour in that area of a photograph wich will probably be wrong

i use this method for oil paintings to give correct colour in given areas what you fail to mention is that you can take a reading in one area but move very little distance away in the same colour area and it can vary hugely

i'll leave you with a famous little nugget of relying on old colour photo's for colours the mistake was made by the biggest kit manufacturer going and on what should have been easy research as the kit was released a relatively short time after ww2 and of a uk based aircraft with common markings/colours

the elevators were obviously replacements taken from an olive drab bird but colour of the time on airfixes refrence shot was purple a mistake that stayed on the kit / instructions for many years until the obvious error was pointed out

photo's can be a good starting point but only with other forms of known refrence and facts

[Steve N]

Good point. I once saw a model of that B-17 with the anti-glare panel in front of the cockpit painted the same yellow as the tail..because the faded Olive Drab appeared that way in this well-known photo.

SN

Edited February 5, 2012 by Steve N