F-4 intake question

[glefebvre]

Hello,

I'm new to the forum and have question about F-4 Phantom intakes. This is mainly for 1/48 kits. I have noticed several kits that have intake that have raised panels on them like the old Monogram F-4C/D kit. Most of the Hasegawa kits do not have these raise panels. Also, some of the after market update have the raised panels and some don't. Are the raised panels correct for certain models of the Phantom? If so, which models are they correct for?

Thanks,

Gary

[silverkite211]

Hello,

I'm new to the forum and have question about F-4 Phantom intakes. This is mainly for 1/48 kits. I have noticed several kits that have intake that have raised panels on them like the old Monogram F-4C/D kit. Most of the Hasegawa kits do not have these raise panels. Also, some of the after market update have the raised panels and some don't. Are the raised panels correct for certain models of the Phantom? If so, which models are they correct for?

Thanks,

Gary

No, there are not any raised panels on the splitter plates (or, more correctly, the vari-ramp) of actual Phantom IIs, it's just different model manufacturers way of trying to show the detail of the perforations that the vari-ramp has. Monogram once had a "Hi-Tech" version of their F-4C/D kit that came with a fret of photo-etch, it included the vari-ramp perforations.

[silverkite211]

Oh, welcome to the forum!

[glefebvre]

Thanks silverkite211,

I was more interested in the raise panels on the outside of the intakes and not the vari-ramp.

[silverkite211]

A couple of years ago I backdated a Monogram F-4J to a F-4B, I uesd the photoetch piece from a monogram kit to improve the vari-ramp, here's how it came out.

[glefebvre]

I was asking about these raised panels on the outside of the intakes.

Non-raised panels

Raised panels

[silverkite211]

It is a slightly raised panel, on the Monogram kit just sanding it down slightly will make it look more like it should, it is not a flush, engraved panel as Hasegawa has represented it.

[glefebvre]

Ok, thanks for the info silverkite221.

[Netz]

It's best to refer to the actual A/C your building, if not then try to find the same type.

Don't put too much trust in kit manufactures to be right, and don't compare kit to kit for accuracy, always refer to the real thing.

Look HERE for some shots of F-4's, if you don't have this web-site book marked I highly recommend it.

Prime Portal

Curt

Edited February 14, 2013 by Netz

[Gene K]

Look HERE for some shots of F-4's, if you don't have this web-site book marked I highly recommend it.

Great site with some good walk arounds of in-service airpalnes. However, not always so good as regards out of service airplanes - for example, if one were to model an F-4C as one photographed here on Prime Portal, it would come out very strange, being covered with Battle Damage Repair panels even worse than those on the Tamiya Phantoms.

USUALLY kit manufacturer do better research than the wonderful folks putting these grand old airplanes on display (but mileage will vary, of course). I used to shake my head in disbelief as I looked at the botched paint jobs on the magnificent air machines on display in front of Air University on Maxwell Air Force Base ... just yards away from the Simpson Historical Research Center (now the Air Force Historical Research Agency) at the AU Library!! Talk about ironic.

Gene K

[modelbillder]

The panels in question are scab patches from simulated battle damage. apparently an "ABDR" (airframe battle damage repair) aircraft, that's usaf parlance, was used for taking measurements by the model maker. surplus abdr jets have been scattered around airbases for structural repair technicians to get experience making such repairs in a wartime environment. tamiya's 32nd F-4s have these. to be really accurate, you should remove these unless you are modeling a fictitious aircraft with these installed.

[Ol Crew Dog]

The panels in question are scab patches from simulated battle damage. apparently an "ABDR" (airframe battle damage repair) aircraft, that's usaf parlance, was used for taking measurements by the model maker. surplus abdr jets have been scattered around airbases for structural repair technicians to get experience making such repairs in a wartime environment. tamiya's 32nd F-4s have these. to be really accurate, you should remove these unless you are modeling a fictitious aircraft with these installed.

The aircraft they used for measurements for the 1/32 Tamiya F-4 was an ABDR bird. I put a few holes and patched them a few times myself on this particular F-4.

One thing you have to remember with the stresses on the aircraft sortie after sortie panels develop cracks, these cracks are repair with a scab patch to maintain structure integrity. Like has been said over and inversely again, check your references on the particular aircraft you are modelling, not all aircraft have the same mods and fixes.

Dave

[Incaroad]

I was asking about these raised panels on the outside of the intakes.

Non-raised panels

Raised panels

Those raised panels are not on any Navy birds I've looked at. Take a look at this "N" and tell me where those raised panels are....

This one looks pretty slick to me except for that Antenna...

[Ol Crew Dog]

Those raised panels are not on any Navy birds I've looked at. Take a look at this "N" and tell me where those raised panels are....

This one looks pretty slick to me except for that Antenna...

Different aircraft get cracks in different areas, if the patch looks to symmetrical and pretty most likely a repair patch and not ABDR.....

[scotthldr]

In reality no a/c has raised panel lines. In modelling terms raised panel lines are generally found on older kits due to limitations in the moulding process when they were produced. Newer kits like the majority of the Hasegawa F-4's now come with recessed lines although but some kits still use some original sprues so you end up with a mix, these are mainly confined to pylons and drop tanks. At the moment there is no kit of the C/D version of the F4 with recessed lines although it's fairly straight forward to convert from a J version.

What version are you looking at building?

[glefebvre]

Right now I'm working on a hard wing E. I'm using the DMold seamless intakes that don't have the raise panels which I believe is correct for the plane I'm building. But the DMold intakes state that they are for E/F/G version and I was wondering if the same intakes can be used on B/C/D/N/J/S versions. I know DMold has intakes for J/S but they have the raised panels with enscrible panel lines.

Netz, great site for walk around photos. Thanks!

[Tailspin Turtle]

Right now I'm working on a hard wing E. I'm using the DMold seamless intakes that don't have the raise panels which I believe is correct for the plane I'm building. But the DMold intakes state that they are for E/F/G version and I was wondering if the same intakes can be used on B/C/D/N/J/S versions. I know DMold has intakes for J/S but they have the raised panels with enscrible panel lines.

Netz, great site for walk around photos. Thanks!

The F-4B thorough the S, except for the K and M, used the same intakes except for the ECM fairings.

[glefebvre]

Thanks Tailspin Turtle. Great info and helpful people.

[Ol Crew Dog]

In reality no a/c has raised panel lines. In modelling terms raised panel lines are generally found on older kits due to limitations in the moulding process when they were produced. Newer kits like the majority of the Hasegawa F-4's now come with recessed lines although but some kits still use some original sprues so you end up with a mix, these are mainly confined to pylons and drop tanks. At the moment there is no kit of the C/D version of the F4 with recessed lines although it's fairly straight forward to convert from a J version.

What version are you looking at building?

Please don't take this as an argument, just my 2 cents.

Older airframes do have raised panels when the panels crack they are beefed up externally with a Scab Patch.

My A Model F-15 had numerous raised panels all over the jet, 1 one each wing top measureing 2' X 2' and I have aseen a few F-4's with that same exact panel repaired with a raised scab panel.

My C Model F-15 had a raised 1' X 1' patch on the side of the intake.

WWII Bombers, B-24, B-17 had Lap Joints that could be considered if in Kit form Raised panels.

Some of the E-model F-15s i have worked on had scab patches.

It might be sopmewhat of a misconception about aircraft not haveing raidsed panerl lines but then again if you were to have engraved panel lines on the jet like they were on the model it would not be a good thing. figure and engraved panel line on a 1/48 aircraft model would equate to 2-3" on the real jet?

Cheers

[Scott R Wilson]

I was asking about these raised panels on the outside of the intakes.

Non-raised panels

Raised panels

Those raised panels were actually flush maintenance access panels. For whatever reason several model companies have depicted them standing well proud of the surrounding surface. In reality they should be flush. Occasionally you might find a particular airplane in which the sealant under the edge of the access panel was a bit thick and the panel would stand proud of the surrounding surface very slightly, but no where near as much as on the model pieces you have there. Here's a few photos I took showing those panels on real F-4s:

Here's a nice DoD photo of an F-4C that also shows those panels flush:

I absolutely do not buy the idea that Tamiya took measurements from an ABDR trainer and duplicated the patches. That's a myth that should die a quiet death, imho. The raised panels are almost without exception maintenance access panels whch should not be raised; doublers which existed on the real airpanes, and a raised area around the oval shaped access panel on the side of the fuselage above the flap hinge that doesn't correspond to any existing panel. The closest thing to ABDR patches I can find are small scab patches on the inboard rear corners of the stabilators. Here's a shot of a real ABDR trainer I took, note the patches are irregular, not corresponding to the access panels. They are also generally heavily riveted:

And there are indeed raised panel lines on some aircraft. There were some panel seams on the C-130s and C-141s I worked on that had been caulked, the caulk forming a raised line. Some F-4s even had the same treatment; here's an F-4F I photographed a few years back. The caulk was applied in a fairly wide band so didn't look like a raised line you'd find on a model though. Note the raised line behind the star and bar insignia:

Edited February 14, 2013 by Scott R Wilson

[scotthldr]

From memory the DMold F-4 E/F/G intakes cannot be used on the J/S and RF kits, as the intakes are a different shape from a modelling perspective.

[Netz]

Right now I'm working on a hard wing E. I'm using the DMold seamless intakes that don't have the raise panels which I believe is correct for the plane I'm building. But the DMold intakes state that they are for E/F/G version and I was wondering if the same intakes can be used on B/C/D/N/J/S versions. I know DMold has intakes for J/S but they have the raised panels with enscrible panel lines.

Netz, great site for walk around photos. Thanks!

No they won't fit due to the tooling differences in the kits, the fuselage and wings are different from the E/F/G and C Through N.

Curt

[Spectre711]

Those are some nice photos and there are more in here.

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/shawn_antunes/yf-4j_151497/

[Ol Crew Dog]

Those raised panels were actually flush maintenance access panels. For whatever reason several model companies have depicted them standing well proud of the surrounding surface. In reality they should be flush. Occasionally you might find a particular airplane in which the sealant under the edge of the access panel was a bit thick and the panel would stand proud of the surrounding surface very slightly, but no where near as much as on the model pieces you have there. Here's a few photos I took showing those panels on real F-4s:

Here's a nice DoD photo of an F-4C that also shows those panels flush:

I absolutely do not buy the idea that Tamiya took measurements from an ABDR trainer and duplicated the patches. That's a myth that should die a quiet death, imho. The raised panels are almost without exception maintenance access panels whch should not be raised; doublers which existed on the real airpanes, and a raised area around the oval shaped access panel on the side of the fuselage above the flap hinge that doesn't correspond to any existing panel. The closest thing to ABDR patches I can find are small scab patches on the inboard rear corners of the stabilators. Here's a shot of a real ABDR trainer I took, note the patches are irregular, not corresponding to the access panels. They are also generally heavily riveted:

And there are indeed raised panel lines on some aircraft. There were some panel seams on the C-130s and C-141s I worked on that had been caulked, the caulk forming a raised line. Some F-4s even had the same treatment; here's an F-4F I photographed a few years back. The caulk was applied in a fairly wide band so didn't look like a raised line you'd find on a model though. Note the raised line behind the star and bar insignia:

Scott,

Hate to disagree but I have seen the jet they used to measure and those patches were on that aircraft. It is not a myth I have actually touched that jet.

We had a couple of D model up in Alaska that had that access panel cracked and repaired with a scab panel, although not as proud but still not flush.

Cheers

[Ol Crew Dog]

Scott,

Hate to disagree but I have seen the jet they used to measure and those patches were on that aircraft. It is not a myth I have actually touched that jet.

We had a couple of D model up in Alaska that had that access panel cracked and repaired with a scab panel, although not as proud but still not flush.

Cheers

Sorry the patches weren't the original ABDR but made pretty for the display bird it became.