Things I Learned Today

[chuck540z3]

That doesn't look like isopropyl alcohol to me, either. However, it may contain it

I thought Tamiya might have sent me the wrong MSDS. They didn't. That MSDS is inaccurate, the label information indicates that this is not proprietary composition, and therefore has to be disclosed on the MSDS as well as the product label. If the EPA or OSHA finds out about it, Tamiya USA may be in trouble.

Really?

Anyway, no matter what the composition is, it's a type of lacquer thinner and it can be mixed with acrylic paint, but maybe only paints with alcohol in them.

[Joel_W]

I was referring to Tamiya's X20-A, not their Yellow cap Lacquer Thinner. But as Chuck alluded to, the Tamiya Lacquer Thinner works great with Tamiya's Acrylic line.

Joel

Edited April 30, 2014 by Joel_W

[Triarius]

Both those chemicals are miscible with isopropyl alcohol. The ketone is moderately soluble in water. The question of compatibility involves the acrylic polymer, not the solvent system of the paint. Inferring that because a paint uses an alcohol solvent system this product is compatible with it is not valid. It may also be compatible with aqueous solvent paints.

As far as I am able to tell, this bears little relationship to the lacquer thinners one finds on paint or hardware store shelves. It is a specialty product formulated for a specific use. The term "lacquer thinner," as I have so often said and explained, is nearly meaningless. In this case, it is misleading, because it implies that other so-called lacquer thinners may be similar.

So when discussing the use of "Tamiya Lacquer Thinner" one should not shorten it to merely "lacquer thinner." Keep it specific so that no one can misread or misinterpret the term.

BTW: Have a look at the MSDSs for both. The one for the EGME is particularly frightening.

[Joel_W]

The only thing I use store Lacquer Thinner for these days is to clean my air brush after a session. I use the Tamiya Lacquer Thinner for Tamiya Acrylic paints, as well as cutting Testors Model Master Glosscoat and Dullcoat. Works great with both of them as well.

I don't understand what these two abbreviations mean? MSDSs for both. The one for the EGME is particularly frightening.

Joel

Edited April 30, 2014 by Joel_W

[chuck540z3]

As far as I am able to tell, this bears little relationship to the lacquer thinners one finds on paint or hardware store shelves. It is a specialty product formulated for a specific use. The term "lacquer thinner," as I have so often said and explained, is nearly meaningless. In this case, it is misleading, because it implies that other so-called lacquer thinners may be similar.

So when discussing the use of "Tamiya Lacquer Thinner" one should not shorten it to merely "lacquer thinner." Keep it specific so that no one can misread or misinterpret the term.

Triarius, I think you are back-peddling and laying blame to others for your incorrect statements. Perhaps a review of this thread is required.

Things you shouldn't have learned today:

Thinning any acrylic with Windex (or equivalent)—ammonia is hard on acrylic polymers.

Considering Tamiya acrylics as lacquers. They aren't. Nor should you use any "lacquer thinner" with an acrylic paint. Lacquer thinner is a blend of solvents, one of which is likely to work with any of a number of polymers—and several of which are probably incompatible. Lacquer thinners usually contain a high proportion of alcohol, the primary solvent for Tamiya and Gunze acrylics. Just use 90% isopropyl with a retarder, or Tamiya's thinner.

With "lacquer thinner" in quotes, you are implying all lacquer thinners- and maybe even those that you don't think should be called lacquer thinners- should not be mixed with acrylics.

I reply with the following, being very specific that I am talking about Tamiya lacquer thinner, and nothing else. Here I explain that your statement is not true, at least not with the Tamiya product and I provide evidence from Tamiya's own website that confirms same.

I have to disagree with the above statement, not because I actually use Tamiya lacquer thinner with their acrylic line, but a friend of mine does all the time and he swears by it. He also creates some of the very best paint finishes I've ever seen.

I found the following on Tamiya USA's website which explains why you might want to:

"Tamiya acrylic bottle paints are excellent for airbrushing plastic model kits whether you're building a model tank, airplane or car. When you begin using Tamiya bottled acrylic paints, we recommend thinning the paint for the best possible airbrush experience. Airbrushing Tamiya acrylic paint directly and un-thinned from the bottle is usually too thick for most applications. It's suggested to use the two thinner options available from Tamiya's finishing supply product line-up.

The first choice is the X-20A Thinner and the second is the Tamiya Lacquer Thinner. Tamiya X-20A is the easiest to work with as clean-up is simple and less messy for modelers who are new to airbrushing. The paint will dry slower using X-20A which will give modelers more time to work with the paint.

For advanced modelers Tamiya Lacquer Thinner will yield two main benefits, but at the expense of a messier clean-up. Tamiya paint thinned with Tamiya Lacquer Thinner will result in the paint drying much faster and the paint will have a harder shell. For modelers who sand their work, a harder finish is preferable. A softer shell is easier to over-sand and it's easier to go too deep into the paint.

A good starting point for achieving the proper paint to thinner ratio is to get your mixture close to the consistency of milk. If the paint is thinned too heavily the paint will appear opaque and it will be easier to run and drip."

You respond with the following, which basically says that the Tamiya lacquer thinner must be concentrated isopropyl alcohol and still not lacquer thinner in any way shape or form...

I just looked at the MSDS for Tamiya lacquer thinner. While it contains almost no useful information, the flash point is listed as 53.06°F (Tag open cup), identical with isopropyl alcohol.

From the description of the behavior of the two Tamiya thinners, their X-20A is probably isopropyl alcohol, possibly slightly diluted, with a small amount of retarder. Their "lacquer thinner" is probably a more concentrated isopropyl alcohol, possibly with additives. It is perfectly legitimate for them to use the imprecise and common term "lacquer thinner" to describe the latter product. If it is, indeed, isopropyl alcohol, then it will thin most non-synthetic lacquers.

So why use lacquer thinner at all? Isopropyl is cheaper and can be had in any (US) drug store. Lacquer thinner often contains (it can contain anything) other, much more noxious solvents that are also aggressive to plastic. Using such a solvent, to me, indicates an unwillingness to learn to use a material properly. When you mistreat a material, sooner or later it bites back.

Contra stultitia, deos ipsos se frustra contendere. Quare ergo me?

I respond with the following, which discloses the two main ingredients of Tamiya lacquer thinner, which are clearly not isopropyl alcohol. I then go on to explain that it walks like lacquer thinner and talks like lacquer thinner. It is much stronger than paint solvent and it even mixes very well with "real" lacquers.

My container of Tamiya lacquer thinner says it contains the following:

Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether and methyl isobutyl ketone.

It is likely the very same stuff that's in their basic putty, because it smells the very same and it mixes very well with it. I also use it to thin "real" lacquers, like Alclad, Krylon, etc. with no issues and it cleans my paint brushes when ordinary paint solvent won't. Although it is safe for plastics, it does bite a bit and will leave the surface a bit rough. Tamiya calls it "a diluted lacquer thinner".

Now you claim that "when discussing the use of "Tamiya Lacquer Thinner" one should not shorten it to merely "lacquer thinner." Keep it specific so that no one can misread or misinterpret the term." So, how did you not get the Tamiya lacquer thinner memo? I have checked the contents of other lacquer thinners and while I fully admit to not knowing what the heck they all are, they are all over the map, so I don't think a "true" lacquer thinner exists. If the solvent is called lacquer thinner, acts like lacquer thinner and mixes well with lacquer paints, I think it's "lacquer thinner", no matter what the brand.

Also, you are wrong that mixing Windex with acrylic paint or acrylic Future is bad. I've done it a million times and it always works great, so what's the big problem? I have pointed this out to you before, but you continue to preach the evils of Windex in the face of many successes using this product. Why?

[Triarius]

The only thing I use store Lacquer Thinner for these days is to clean my air brush after a session. I use the Tamiya Lacquer Thinner for Tamiya Acrylic paints, as well as cutting Testors Model Master Glosscoat and Dullcoat. Works great with both of them as well.

I don't understand what these two abbreviations mean? MSDSs for both. The one for the EGME is particularly frightening.

Joel

MSDS: Material Safety Data Sheet: everything you have a right to know about a product—or it should be. As mentioned previously, the Tamiya MSDS for their "Lacquer Thinner" is incorrect.

EGME: Ethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether

[Triarius]

Chuck, you aren't reading carefully. Apparently you think that taking qualified statements out of context and using them in ad hominem attacks is proper behavior. If you cannot discuss things without doing so, I suggest you not do so at all.

As for using Windex or equivalent as a solvent, no one's stopping you. I merely advise against the abuse of materials, based on thirty years experience diagnosing and fixing the problems that creates.

Contra stultitia, deos ipsos se frustra contendere. Quare ergo me?

[chuck540z3]

quote name='Triarius' timestamp='1398714308' post='2609291']

1) Thinning any acrylic with Windex (or equivalent)—ammonia is hard on acrylic polymers.

2) Nor should you use any "lacquer thinner" with an acrylic paint.

As a post in the Tools 'n Tips forum, readers are looking for advice, information and occasionally differing points of view on a variety of modeling subjects, including the application of a variety of paints. I disagreed with the second point above and made my case, nothing more, as a differing opinion. It wasn't until today that you claimed that we were being vague on what type of lacquer thinner we were talking about ("So when discussing the use of "Tamiya Lacquer Thinner" one should not shorten it to merely "lacquer thinner." Keep it specific so that no one can misread or misinterpret the term"), that I felt a reality check was in order- hence the post above and the challenge of the first point to go with it.

You are or were a chemist of some kind and you obviously know a lot about the chemical industry. Odds are overwhelming that you know what you are talking about most of the time, but not all of the time. Nothing was taken out of context and there were no "ad hominem attacks". Tamiya acrylic paint can be thinned by Tamiya lacquer thinner, period, as I stated. Tamiya even recommends it.

BTW, your latin jibberish at the end of two of your posts in response to mine are not exactly flattering, so playing the sympathy card is a bit much:

"Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain. Why me?"

Edited April 30, 2014 by chuck540z3

[Thommo]

See what happens when you let Australians start mixing all sorts of incompatible stuff at the workbench....we bring a major japanese model manufacturer to the brink of destruction :lol:

Next, I'm gonna try thinning Humbrol enamels with this nice Canadian maple syrup we've got in our cupboard :o

[Joel_W]

Triarius,

I started using Tamiya's Lacquer Thinner to thin their Acrylic paints after reading the recommendation on their web site, as well as Chuck's, and other modelers on this site as well as on the Large Scale Planes (LSP) forum. The paints do indeed thin extremely well, and the resulting painted surface dries quicker, smoother, and to some extent harder (seems to resist the usual scratching from my carelessness), then when I use their X20-A thinner.

I see no difference in it's dangers then what we've come to expect from other lacquer based products. For me, it's specifically Allcad 11s, Dullcoat, and Glosscoat. I've built and use a spray booth to vent the fumes directly outside. When I don't use it, I use a surgical mask for such short applications as glossing or dullcoating.

As far as Windex-D application goes, it's generally used to thin water based paints like Vallejo and Italeri paints. It also works extremely well with Future/Pledge, which is what I use it for. It's clean up is the longest and messiest for me as I always finish a cleaning session with lacquer thinner.

Since I don't speak Latin, had no idea of what point you were trying to make with that phrase. "Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain. Why me?" is hardly necessary, and certainly is demeaning to those who have a different opinion then yours.

Joel

Edited April 30, 2014 by Joel_W

[chuck540z3]

Triarius.

Since my last post, I have had some time to think about what was said, what was debated and what my last two posts entailed. Your input is quite valued here in this Tools 'N Tips forum that you frequent, and while I have no idea what you are talking about at the best of times based upon your very technical detail provided, I do believe you are correct most of the time. I would like to offer a peace offering.

Peace, out,

Chuck

Edited May 1, 2014 by chuck540z3

[SBARC]

Life is short guys...value each moment.

[galileo1]

Rob,

That's very interesting. I just go with what the base of the paint is. Thinking about it, X20-A is alcohol based, but it does contain distilled water. So I'm thinking that it will thin water based paints. Just don't mix those base paints together.

Joel

It also works wonders with Vallejo's polyurethane primers as well as AK and AMMO primers.

Rob

[Thommo]

Last night I mixed nothing except Tamiya, Tamiya and Tamiya - it worked a treat :D

Only problem is I still have shocking tennis & golf elbow (yes the double whammy - hurts medial & lateral) from a weeks fly-fishing in NZ back in Feb, and the one thing that aggravates it most is....airbrushing :( I did some left handed, but for fine control, have to use the right hand. Maybe I need to learn how to hold an Aztec like Brett Green :o

[Joel_W]

I'm left handed. Can't do anything much with the right hand. Anyway, my Paasche-H single action gun has the cup off centered to the left side, making holding the gun uncomfortable, and somewhat awkward. Some how I just gravitated to using my right hand for holding the air brush. Soon it became 2nd nature. Now I can't paint left handed. Go figure.

Joel

[habu2]

When I tried to understand and untangle the whole "acrylic/enamel/laquer" qestion I found this page most helpful:

Paint Types

Good info there.

[Thommo]

I'm left handed. Can't do anything much with the right hand. Anyway, my Paasche-H single action gun has the cup off centered to the left side, making holding the gun uncomfortable, and somewhat awkward. Some how I just gravitated to using my right hand for holding the air brush. Soon it became 2nd nature. Now I can't paint left handed. Go figure.

Joel

OK, you've convinced me to try harder Joel, as this problem ain't gonna heal unless I rest it from the airbrush. Weird thing is, I actually write (and shoot) left handed, everything else including airbrushing & fly-casting is right handed.

Airbrushing actually aggravates in more than push ups/pull ups in the gym :blink: Typing and using the mouse ain't great either so I'm trying to do left hand one finger work :wacko:

[Joel_W]

OK, you've convinced me to try harder Joel, as this problem ain't gonna heal unless I rest it from the airbrush. Weird thing is, I actually write (and shoot) left handed, everything else including airbrushing & fly-casting is right handed.

Airbrushing actually aggravates in more than push ups/pull ups in the gym :blink:/> Typing and using the mouse ain't great either so I'm trying to do left hand one finger work :wacko:/>

I'm strictly a left handed guy for when it comes to my mouse, not because I can't use it right handed, but because I would have to switch the functions of the right and left buttons. I think you would be surprised out how easy it is to learn to air brush with your other hand.

Joel

[Thommo]

I also learned that if you keep putting the distilled water diluted Polyscale Clear Gloss back in the jar because you are a tight-arse, then keep diluting it again with DW everytime you put it in the airbrush pot, eventually it does not do a very good job

And that 20+ year old Matchbox decals have a tendency to break into several bits in water, not bed down too well, and silver.

[Joel_W]

I also learned that if you keep putting the distilled water diluted Polyscale Clear Gloss back in the jar because you are a tight-arse, then keep diluting it again with DW everytime you put it in the airbrush pot, eventually it does not do a very good job :doh:/>

And that 20+ year old Matchbox decals have a tendency to break into several bits in water, not bed down too well, and silver.

Anything that I dilute I toss after use. I never, ever, put it back into the original jar. After a while of using any paint or sealing product, you should have a pretty good idea of how much it takes to do a similar job so you're not throwing out that much. In any event, none of these products cost so much where you need to save the left overs.

Joel

[Mike C]

Anything that I dilute I toss after use. I never, ever, put it back into the original jar. After a while of using any paint or sealing product, you should have a pretty good idea of how much it takes to do a similar job so you're not throwing out that much. In any event, none of these products cost so much where you need to save the left overs.

Joel

Depends on what you dilute the paint with. I have quite a few bottles of pre-thinned Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous that I've kept for over 2 years, and they're still good. I thinned them with X-20A or methylated spirit (no Windex or lacquer thinner).

[Joel_W]

Depends on what you dilute the paint with. I have quite a few bottles of pre-thinned Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous that I've kept for over 2 years, and they're still good. I thinned them with X-20A or methylated spirit (no Windex or lacquer thinner).

Mike,

If you pre-thin the entire jar, that's a different scenario, because you're not going to thin the paint mixture every time you use it. I was replying to a post where he was just returning the thinned paints back to the original jar that wasn't thinned. After a while the paint becomes too thin for you to really know how much thinning agent to use for the next use.

Joel

[balls47]

Gentlemen, If you put thinned enamel paint back in the original jar of unthinned paint, it won't be long, and that jar of paint will be pretty much useless. Don't ask me how I learned this, but it only took one ruined jar of MM enamel paint to learn my lesson. Ever hear of the "school of hard knocks?" I have graditated from that school many times. I also need to go to a school for spelling, then I can "graditate" from that school, also. I figured that this post could use a little humor!

When I get to the point of painting a model, I try and guesstimate how much paint I will need. I take that amount and thin it in a separate container. In my world, that container would be a 35mm film canister. When 35mm film was still widely used, I would go to our local drug store/film developer, and clean them out. I would take all of the clear canisters and leave a few black ones for the store. They were happy and I were happy. I now have a lifetime supply. In case I needed extra paint, the thinner that I added took care of that. This stuff was good for a week or so. After I was done with it, I pitched it. Good Luck, men!!!