falcon04 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 - previously asked on Britmodeller where it unfortunately sank w/o a trace - To quote Tom Cooper on that forum about a year ago: "The light-blue-grey camouflage colour used by the PLAAF (applied 'overall' in the case of J-7s) is slightly darker than that used by the PLANAF." I've got all the relevant printed refs. inc. those co-authored by Mr.Cooper, as well as a ream of Web pics and mixes & color calls from kits, Frontpenny decals, etc., but there is no agreement - and my tired old eyes tell me that there were some variations between manufacturers as well as over time. Would love to have BSC / RAL / FS595 approximations or model paint colors or mixes and opinions always welcome. Hope this is not another of those unanswerable questions I manage to come up with ! For 1:48 J-7E, J-7G, J-8D, and J-8F. ( and other J-8 variants ) TIA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Hi "falcon04" ... to admit that's a good question and not easy to answer especially since I'm no longer a modeler. My only suggestion would be to mix them on Your own by using suitable images - here I can maybe help You - and take the book You mentioned from Tom and me (http://www.harpia-publishing.com/galleries/MCW/index.html) to compare. Just a question to be sure - but here I admit I'm not sure - are the colors given on the painting and marking guide so off ? It is indeed correct, that overall the PLANAF uses a very light grey color, whereas most of the current PLAAF J-7, J-8, J-10 and JH-7 have a slightly darker (+ a bit of blue-grey) scheme. I will look around and come back later when I have more ... Sorry, that I can't tell You the exact color. Deino http://www.hyperscale.com/2010/galleries/j10a48ym_1.htm http://www.model-making.eu/products/Chinese-PLAAF-J-10B-Vigorous-Dragon.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I can't tell you the colours - but I can post some photos wot I took in Chinese museums and airshows - you decide. Early J-8 in a Beijing museum...... Another, almost-white J-8 at Xiaotangshan...... JH-7A and J-8 II..... Mockup of the J-10 in darker grey.... Operational JH-7A at the 2010 Zhuhai airshow..... J-8F at the same show..... I've more from a visit in 2012 and 2013 if you want them ??? Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Early J-8 in a Beijing museum...... Another, almost-white J-8 at Xiaotangshan...... Damn I'd love a 1/72 plastic kit of this bird. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foxmulder_ms Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 My suggestion will be (somehow based on Trumpeter J-10 instructions) 50% Light ghost gray + 50% white. It looks good to me on my J-10 underside. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
falcon04 Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 A few pics to illustrate the conundrum: JH-7A, J-10A, and J-8DF at Zhuhai in 2008 AFAIK, these are all PLAAF aircraft, tarted up for the air show. The JH-7A and J-10A are close enough - similar to color calls close to FS36375, but the J-8DF is a distinctly different hue - closer to a gloss Light Gull Gray FS16440. A nice close up of J-8DF "21103 Yellow" is on page 91 of Andreas' "Dragon's Wings". As to PLANAF color calls, Frontpenny Decals: J-10A "83143 Red", Gunze C338 ( FS36495 ) overall. J-15 "100, 103, & 105" ( Blue ? ) 5 parts White + 1 part Gunze C308 ( FS36375 ) overall. Both calls give a suitably light gray. That's a sample of what I have - just tons of web pics searched both in English and Chinese, which certainly seem to concur with a lighter PLANAF gray, but beg many more questions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 That's a photoshop surely....... either that or its the first photo I have seen of a J-15S - tandem two-seat naval Flanker (the lighter of the two). What is that strange dark area above the port canard ?? Anyone ??? Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TomCooper Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 - previously asked on Britmodeller where it unfortunately sank w/o a trace - To quote Tom Cooper on that forum about a year ago: "The light-blue-grey camouflage colour used by the PLAAF (applied 'overall' in the case of J-7s) is slightly darker than that used by the PLANAF." I've got all the relevant printed refs. inc. those co-authored by Mr.Cooper, as well as a ream of Web pics and mixes & color calls from kits, Frontpenny decals, etc., but there is no agreement - and my tired old eyes tell me that there were some variations between manufacturers as well as over time. Sorry, haven't seen your inquiry on BM: last few weeks I'm primarily busy there helping gents that run the 'Lesser Built Air Forces GB'. Even so: sry, I don't have exact FS595 number for you (nor any RAL or BS numbers). Only experiences from drawing about 200 artworks for the book Modern Chinese Warplanes. I'm using Photoshop for drawing colour profiles and have started with FS35450, then clicked with 'pipette' on different photos and tested plenty of shades with very minor adjustments until I've got a shade that's 'working' on 'all' the aircraft I drew. That said, the PLAAF (Air Force) is painting all of its combat aircraft (except for J-11/16s, Q-5s and bottom surfaces of J-10s) in exactly the same colour (i.e. something similar to FS35450). That means: whether you're building a J-7E, J-7G, J-8D (i.e. J-8DH now), or J-8F, they're all painted in same colour. Any 'differences' you might see on different photos are caused by light and wear. The same colour is used on many, but not all combat-support types (and training aircraft are a completely different story). The PLANAF (Naval Aviation) is using a significantly lighter shade. Obviously, the two services are using different colours for their prominent serials too. PLAAF is using yellow, very similar to that used by the USAF. Though not always: there are few regiments (primarily in the Shanghai area) using the same orange-red like the PLANAF. I learned not to trust any kind of 'museum pieces', i.e. aircraft put on display in museums. They're either painted in wrong colours or showing camo patterns that are not in use any more. Anyway, I'll check with Andy Rupprecht: perhaps he's got some details meanwhile (back in 2012 he hasn't Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TomCooper Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Flankerman's photos of operational aircraft are nicely representative for the same colour used on JH-7s and J-8s (and to re-fresh my skills in 'reading' PLAAF serials): This aircraft is serving with the Weifang-Weixian AB-based 15th Air Regiment, 5th Ground-Attack Division, Jinan MRAF. J-8F at the same show..... This one is from the Anshan-based 3rd Air Regiment, 1st Figther Division, Shenyang MRAF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 To admit after reading the last post - and it seems fine that there at least a few - I need to correct myself and You Tom too. This image is the reason: A few pics to illustrate the conundrum: JH-7A, J-10A, and J-8DF at Zhuhai in 2008 .... If You look closely, then my first statement and Yours is not correct. .... That said, the PLAAF (Air Force) is painting all of its combat aircraft (except for J-11/16s, Q-5s and bottom surfaces of J-10s) in exactly the same colour (i.e. something similar to FS35450). That means: whether you're building a J-7E, J-7G, J-8D (i.e. J-8DH now), or J-8F, they're all painted in same colour. Any 'differences' you might see on different photos are caused by light and wear. The same colour is used on many, but not all combat-support types (and training aircraft are a completely different story). No, the colors are indeed different ... depending how recent the last overhaul and painting was: the J-10A/AS and now B have a slightly darker two-tone color with IMO a bit of blue in the upper-grey. The lower tone is lighter. I'm not 100% sure, but I have that strange feeling that even the JH-7 and JH-7A's grey is a bit lighter than the J-10's top color. The J-8F's on Your image are of an older date and they have again a lighter color ... however the most recent ones have the same grey like the JH-7. I have an interesting image showing a J-10, a J-8F and a JH-7A standing side by side and they are the same, but sadly my imageShack account has ended. .... The PLANAF (Naval Aviation) is using a significantly lighter shade. Obviously, the two services are using different colours for their prominent serials too. PLAAF is using yellow, very similar to that used by the USAF. Though not always: there are few regiments (primarily in the Shanghai area) using the same orange-red like the PLANAF. I learned not to trust any kind of 'museum pieces', i.e. aircraft put on display in museums. They're either painted in wrong colours or showing camo patterns that are not in use any more. Anyway, I'll check with Andy Rupprecht: perhaps he's got some details meanwhile (back in 2012 he hasn't Yes, the PLANAF again is a different story and sadly like Tom mentioned I have no new details ... as such like Tom suggested try and try again to mix Your own color. Sorry that I don't have more. Deino Quote Link to post Share on other sites
falcon04 Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Thanks for all the commentary - an obscure topic which needs more research. On the J-8DF - it is the only gloss finished acft of the 3 - but looks a fresh paint job - stencils and all - perhaps for the show or because DF's are conversions / upgrades of older airframes ? As to FS35450 - that's Air Superiority Blue - way too blue in my estimation. FS 595 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TomCooper Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Talking about the Devil... :P/> Andy, are you sure the two J-8s here are none of (older) J-8Bs (with green radomes)? No, the colors are indeed different ... depending how recent the last overhaul and painting was: the J-10A/AS and now B have a slightly darker two-tone color with IMO a bit of blue in the upper-grey. The lower tone is lighter. I'm not 100% sure, but I have that strange feeling that even the JH-7 and JH-7A's grey is a bit lighter than the J-10's top color. The J-8F's on Your image are of an older date and they have again a lighter color ... however the most recent ones have the same grey like the JH-7.I call this 'normal'. There are seven different factories, far away from each other, and in a huge country. Each has surely its own paint manufacturer: each is mixing the 'same' colour, but with slightly different results. Add some weathering and 'that's it'. That said: sure, undersides of J-10s are lighter (as mentioned above). Falcon, FS35450 was just my 'starting point', not the 'definite colour'. ...and this: ...is not exactly 'Photoshop': Max3D or some other sort of 3D/CAD software, no genuine photo. ;-) Edited March 22, 2015 by TomCooper Quote Link to post Share on other sites
falcon04 Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 That's a photoshop surely Please, don't call me Shirley :rolleyes:/> I'm certain you are correct - if you Google the filename of the pic it will take you to the site where other PS are to be found :smiley-transport008:/> Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TomCooper Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Point is: a) noses of both aircraft are 'wrong'; B) photos of armed PLAAF or PLANAF aircraft are extremely rare; c) combined formations of PLAAF and PLANAF aircraft next to 'unheard of'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TomCooper Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 BTW, is there a way to upload photos to this forum (or is it so I can only link those already online)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
falcon04 Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) are you sure the two J-8s here are none of (older) J-8Bs (with green radomes) ? Late D's - not B's. Not DF's either - the green radome says not DF - my error - and most photo captions on Chinese websites call them D's. (1) modified afterburner fairing (2) RWR array on vertical stab. and under nose. (3) Flare / chaff dispensers each side of ventral fin, deleted from forward fuselage. The DF has the black F-type radome with a better radar and missile capability as in the F, but still has the one fence wing, solid speed boards. Some DF's have more antennas - GPS and data link on spine, ILS on vertical stab - like these: I don't think B's were upgraded - and were retired by 2008 Edited March 22, 2015 by falcon04 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 My head hurts! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B.Sin Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Damn I'd love a 1/72 plastic kit of this bird. I second that, but in 1:48 scale! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vince Maddux Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Remember, everyone sees colors differently, so it might be a pigment of your imagination. But look at the photos of what your building and get as close as you can and go with it. There are so many variables in picking the right shade it will make your head spin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Remember, everyone sees colors differently, so it might be a pigment of your imagination. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Tom, You are correct ... these are standard unmodified D models actually - exactly the same as in the second image with the J-10 behind - from the 9. Division. Late D's - not B's. Not DF's either - the green radome says not DF - my error - and most photo captions on Chinese websites call them D's. ... I don't think B's were upgraded - and were retired by 2008 Yes and No, there are actually still a few original J-8II's flying around and these can be identified on the black tip of their tail and wider black/dark green leading edge of the vertical tail. The later J-8B, D (= B + IFR-probe) are different like You described. Here's a good comparison of a II vs. a recce JZ-8F (now JC-8F) http://photo.blog.sina.com.cn/showpic.html#blogid=609bccb40102v2q3&url=http://album.sina.com.cn/pic/001LGOa0gy6LxX5GocCce from Cadder: http://blog.sina.com.cn/cadder Anyway ... a very interesting topic indeed, Deino Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TomCooper Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 My head hurts! Now imagine all the headaches when trying to get and sort out all the necessary info, photos, insignia, and then organize - and present - an 'easy to use' ORBAT for about 30 divisions and some 80 regiments and/or brigades... :P Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Now imagine all the headaches when trying to get and sort out all the necessary info, photos, insignia, and then organize - and present - an 'easy to use' ORBAT for about 30 divisions and some 80 regiments and/or brigades... :P/> But for that You are not alone ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brad-M Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Is the J-7D (Mig-21MF) included in this as well? Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Is the J-7D (Mig-21MF) included in this as well? Brad Yes ... if You take their latest operational regiment today. They are now grey too: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HM84QRgdcg0/UjkGOmLKHzI/AAAAAAAAGcQ/Zbeg9Q6LIUQ/s1600/J-7D1.jpg Deino Edited March 27, 2015 by Deino Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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