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Tweaklist to convert F-4E to F-4F Phantom

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Hi all,

 

I wonder if anyone is familiar with a tweak list to convert F-4E Phantom to a F-4F. Phantom.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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It might help if you gave a little more information as it kind of depends on

which F-4E (early/late/) you are starting with

which F-4F (early/or ICE mod) you want to end up with

what F-4E kit you have and

how detailed do you want to get....

 

Generally the differences are

F-4F's have

unslotted  stabilizers

Slated wings (Agile Eagle modification)

long cannon muzzles

not TIESO units on leading edge of left wing

Early F-4F only carried AIM 9 Sidewinders whilst the late ICE modified F-4F carried AIM-120s.

 

HTH

 

 

 

 

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Hi Robert,

 

It's a fairly short list; starting off with a slatted F-4E, off the top of my head:

 

1) Use a non-slotted Stabilator. This is the major external difference to the F-4E. Either remove or fill in the fixed slat or use a non-slotted one from another kit; in 1/48 my preferred option would be the Hypersonic set but this may be a little hard to obtain until Jeffrey is fully established in his new place. Watch out for the Academy ones, the demarcation for the outer panels is in the wrong place (too far inboard).

 

2) Use a plain fin cap (no RWR 'football').

 

3) Change the rear instrument panel. The F-4F has a different lay-out. This is the original http://f4phantomparts.com/fotos/COCKPITS/f-4f-rear.jpg. The ICE version has some detail differences such as a screen for the new navigation system behind the radar control joystick on the right hand console. You can see it in this walk around set from Large Scale Planes: https://www.largescaleplanes.com/walkaround/wk.php?wid=21

 

4) Fill in the forward fin slots of the missile bays. Because the F-4F wasn't AIM-7 capable the German Air Force installed a cover panel to reduce drag, the aft slots were left open. When the ICE/KWS upgrades added the AIM-120 capability a new launcher was installed. However these were only used when the jet was on Alert. Here's an example of the forward bays with covers and the AIM-120 launchers in the rear bays: http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/f-4f-phantom-ii-ice-1.jpg . Jets with the ICE upgrade can be identified by the grey radome; non-ICE aircraft retained the black version.  Except for the test aircraft, all were painted in the Norm 90 scheme.

 

5) To be fully representative, the leading edge slats and the flaps should be shown as deployed/down on a parked jet. The GAF are unique in doing this. There were sets from Paragon Resin for this configuration but these are long OOP and I don't know of an alternative. I wouldn't be surprised to see extended slats on the Zoukei Mura long nose variants given they did this on their F-4S.

 

6) The Mk7 seats are also of a slightly different configuration. These are highlighted here: http://www.ejectionsite.com/gh7aseat.htm

 

That's pretty much it. As with any other aircraft there are different aerial configurations which these vary over time. The usual advice of finding a photo of your intended subject applies.

 

HTH,

 

Jonathan

 

 

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Royale Resin makes some nice unslatted stabilators too. 

 

Ben

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17 hours ago, Wild Weasel V said:

4) Fill in the forward fin slots of the missile bays. Because the F-4F wasn't AIM-7 capable the German Air Force installed a cover panel to reduce drag, the aft slots were left open. When the ICE/KWS upgrades added the AIM-120 capability a new launcher was installed. However these were only used when the jet was on Alert. Here's an example of the forward bays with covers and the AIM-120 launchers in the rear bays: http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/f-4f-phantom-ii-ice-1.jpg . Jets with the ICE upgrade can be identified by the grey radome; non-ICE aircraft retained the black version.  Except for the test aircraft, all were painted in the Norm 90 scheme.

   the front sparrow bays look open to me, am i wrong?

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47 minutes ago, DarkKnight said:

   the front sparrow bays look open to me, am i wrong?

The bays are still there, he's just referring to the slots where the missile's forward fins stick up into the fuselage. On other F-4s, there are spring-loaded panels that close the opening, but on the F-4F, they put a cover over the forward slots. I just learned this myself a week or two ago, courtesy of the folks on this forum. If you look at the aft missile bays in the photo, you can see the slots about even with the trailing edges of the speed brakes. In the forward bays, the slots would normally be seen just about even with the leading edge of the intake duct. Hopefully, I'm not confusing the issue, which I have been known to do on occasion.

 

Ben

 

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, DarkKnight said:

   the front sparrow bays look open to me, am i wrong?

 

I think misunderstandings arise differentiating "slots" from "bays".

 

Gene K

 

EDIT: Opps, Ben. Sent the same time as yours.

Edited by Gene K

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Thanks Ben and Gene,

 

Yes, I mean the slots in the missile bays; Darknight compare the forward bays to the rear ones, you'll see the larger rectangular slots for the forward fins visible in the aft bays are blanked off. Here's a picture with all four blanking panels installed:

 

http://www.irishairpics.com/photo/1046396/L/McDonnell-Douglas-F-4F-ICE-Phantom-II/3824/Luftwaffe/

 

The dark lines you can see between the speedbrakes and the aft well would be unpainted reinforcing strips. If you have a copy,  there's some fantastic close-up photos on page 202 of Jake Melampy's Modern Phantom Guide of both the panels and the launchers.

 

Compare it to this shot of an Iranian F-4E (look at the area inboard of the boundary layer vents on the intakes): https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8380360

 

HTH,

 

Jonathan

 

P.S. Ben, thanks for reminding me about Royale Resin's F-4 stabilators, I'd forgotten about the other fantastic stuff that Doug makes. :doh:

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You obviously know your Phantom "stuff", Jonathan. :thumbsup:

 

Thanks for all the links --  new sites I can explore.

 

Gene K

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thanks for the help guys, I get it now, Luftwaffe Phantoms always looked cool to me, always wondered why they bought such a "downgraded" version at first

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Hi. Lots of questions answered already. Thank you all so far. I have no kit on stash but I want to build one in Norm 90 scheme. The grey shades are just beautiful. So what will be the best kit to start with as want to build in 1/32 scale. Revell has the nose job to fix, might be a minor issue but I prefer the Tamiya kits. For an early Tam 60310 kit I have to fix the wings and create the slats from scratch or use aftermarket. Correct me if I'm wrong, I am not an expert. So any advise will be welcome. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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9 hours ago, DarkKnight said:

thanks for the help guys, I get it now, Luftwaffe Phantoms always looked cool to me, always wondered why they bought such a "downgraded" version at first


Cost & mission mostly. They were tip of the spear and deployed to JaBo units (Fighter-Bomber), so they were not expected to engage in BVR combat but rather a mixture of point defence and strike roles. Hence no reason to spend money or mass on the Sparrow capability.

After reunification the mission changed and they were deployed as air defence interceptors, thus the need for the ICE refits to gain BVR capability.

Note the Luftwaffe actually did have 10 F-4E's until the mid 90's, but they were based in the US for training, I'm not sure about specifics on airframes (and IIRC they wore US markings just like the US-based F-104G's did).

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Hi all. This is what I have in mind to replicate.

Wittmundshafen, Norm 90 F-4F. Real worn out by weathering conditions, love this picture. 

 

https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiO3f--66raAhXF6Y8KHaI_BhwQjRx6BAgAEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flugrevue.de%2Fmilitaerluftfahrt%2Fkampfflugzeuge-helikopter%2Ff-4f-phantom-die-letzten-missionen-fliegen-ist-handarbeit%2F575920%3Fseite%3D2&psig=AOvVaw1ROav0wCxSst0e6ywxlLYv&ust=1523272193529407

 

Decided to go with a TAM 60310 early version, which is still widely available. Found slats from Wingman, good price, including costs to send to Thailand.

Have no idea when to start this, first to finish the D version. Stash is calling for it, so action.

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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On 4/7/2018 at 2:59 AM, BrockyTaz said:

Generally the differences are

F-4F's have

unslotted  stabilizers

Slated wings (Agile Eagle modification)

long cannon muzzles

not TIESO units on leading edge of left wing

Early F-4F only carried AIM 9 Sidewinders whilst the late ICE modified F-4F carried AIM-120s.

 

Ok I found the Flightpath AIM-120s, Flightpath makes them and ordered a set. what AIM-9 Sidewinders were deployed for the late GAF F-4F?

What I also want to know is the fact if the Avionix cockpit is worth the money for this build. Almost no other options on the market, except for the Aires, but is designed for the F-4J.

 

Search continues,

 

Robert Jan

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Hi Robert,

 

I have the Avionix F-4E cockpit and it looks pretty good. I don't know how accurate it is, but it looks busy. I seem to recall that it is for an early F-4E, so you'd probably have to make a few modifications to the instrument panels if you want to get it closer to an F-4F cockpit.

 

I think the Wingman slats are the old Isracast slats, which is a good thing. I have a set, and they good pretty good. Hopefully, they fit as good as they look! :whistle: I can't remember if anyone made unslotted stabilators for the 1/32 F-4s, but you might be able to find someone here or on the Large Scale Planes forum who has a set of stabs left over from a Tamiya F-4C/D kit. If not, you can just remove the slots from the kit parts.

 

I would think the ICE F-4Fs would carry the AIM-9L/M. Others will know more.

 

If you haven't got to this point on your F-4D, the intakes are a pain in the neck. DMold, Rhino, and GT Resin all make resin replacements that more or less drop right in.

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

 

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Hi Ben. I got back to the F-4 because of the Beautiful and very well documented build log from Chuck, He did an after Vietnam F-4E based at Rammstein, he is a Canadian member I believe (think the build was from 2012 already). Learned about the tweaks for slats from this build. Think the AIM-9L will come from the Zacto Man, already have some D versions from him, look absolute perfect and accurate, with perfect decals and documentation. The Flightpath resin for the AMRAAM, I don't know, no experience with this brand , see what comes to my door. For the intakes I used the Rhino's on my F-4D, very soft resin, which is nice to shape and scribing the details. Options to choose from. See what the internet market offers for sprues, other wise take your advise and re-shape the kit parts.

Thanks for watching in and advise, learning every day.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan 

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To continue, I send a message to HAHEN, located in Essen Germany, for decals of a F-4F Phantom II JG 71 for Norm 90. Look pretty good.

But what about the stencils? Were German F-4's on every spot bilingual for, e.g. No Step or other warnings? Can I add the English stencils?

Seen no specific sheets with stencils in German for the F-4F so far. Anyone familiar with this?

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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Also, does the AirDoc set for 73 Norm, and the 90 Norm F-4F provide stencils or not?

Not clear on this when I see the offering on Hannants website. Norm 90 is out of stock right now, maybe discontinued. If so, are the 73 Norm stencils(if they are on the sheet) applicable for a Norm 90 layout?

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan 

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Hi Robert,

 

It looks like Hahen's 1/32 Norm 90 sheet provides some stencils. I don't think the Norm 90 jets carried very many stencils, similar to how the USAF's Hill Gray camouflaged F-4s had very few stencils.

 

Flighpath's  products are very good, but can sometimes be a little complicated to build, due to their extensive use of photo etched parts.

 

Ben

 

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Hi all.what I can see from Legend LA3204 cockpit set for Revell F-4E phantom, is that the office in the back comes very closet that of the GAF F-4F.

Some opinions on that?Took the advantage to download all Pdf. from Eduard to match the different displays and see if I can combine some to match up with the F-4F.

On the other hand, I read a rather negative comment on the fit of Legends resin and PE from this specific kit. More expensive than the Avionix piece, but my skills in detail painting have to increase for that to pop out they it should be. Optivisor will be needed.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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Hi all. Question about the function of the 'belly strap' on F-4Es. From the information GT resin is giving F-4E/G had these.

What is it and does the F-4F of the GAF have this? From the pictures posted earlier I can not discover they were used. 

Text from GT Resin:

"1/32 F-4E/G Belly Strap. Fits both Revell and Tamiya Kits. The belly strap was used on all of the hard wing F-4E’s (about 1/3 of those built) when upgraded with maneuvering slats. All F-4G’s used these as they were converted hard wing E’S."

I am a little confused.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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5 minutes ago, Speedy said:

Hi all. Question about the function of the 'belly strap' on F-4Es. From the information GT resin is giving F-4E/G had these.

What is it and does the F-4F of the GAF have this? From the pictures posted earlier I can not discover they were used. 

Text from GT Resin:

"1/32 F-4E/G Belly Strap. Fits both Revell and Tamiya Kits. The belly strap was used on all of the hard wing F-4E’s (about 1/3 of those built) when upgraded with maneuvering slats. All F-4G’s used these as they were converted hard wing E’S."

I am a little confused.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan


All F-4F's were built with slats and thus did not require the belly strap reinforcement.

The strap was a reinforcement for additional stresses on the wing when the slats were deployed. Slatted wing aircraft from the factory had a thicker belly skin to handle the stress.

The straps were only present on F-4E's that were built with hard wings and converted to a slatted wing later (all G's were converted from E's built with hard wings). The F-4S also had a similar strap fitted for the same reason.

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Ok! Thanks for the information.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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Hi all. I found this nice F-4F build by Ingo Degenhardt on Hyperscale. What is the Pod called in the left front bay?

Where did they use it for? 

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

 

 

20070312_173659_003_Phantom_fs.jpg

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Looks like an ALQ-119 ECM pod, not sure which variant. 

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