AMMO MiG-17F in 48th scale

[dai phan]

8 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

Doesn't FCmodelmess do the Mig 3D stuff?

Tried their stuff twice (silly me) will avoid like the plague for ever!

I cannot believe Ammo did not check their products before packaging their Limited Edition ! People who did not know of my build will be in for a BIG surprise as the seat is over sized and thus worthless ! Dai 

[ya-gabor]

14 hours ago, dai phan said:

Since you are well regarded in Mig expert I am surprised Ammo did not consult with you ! Dai 

 

Hi Dai Phan,

 

I am just another modeller as any other on forums. Why should they listen to me? Apart from speaking to them (AMMO reps) at this years Moson show, I have absolutely no connection to them. So why would they listen to comments? I have sent to them my remarks through a friend.

 

There are companies who know me very well and I have good personal relation with some of them, in most cases they do not listen either. They have their own experts with in company (or long term outside contributors) who help them in design and development.

I don’t have any sleepless night because of this!

Have to say don’t really care! The one thing in which I am interested in is to see a good and authentic kit on my workbench. Parts missing or wrong design I replace with my own, it is like this with this kit also, already made many bits and pieces for myself.

 

I cannot believe Ammo did not check their products before packaging their Limited Edition ! People who did not know of my build will be in for a BIG surprise as the seat is over sized and thus worthless ! Dai  

 

How well do different parts fit? like 3D printed extras or cast resin parts? Or even photoetch. It was exactly with this MiG-17 kit that a Czech producer of photoetched parts did not do any test builds and pressed the product into production. So the 3D parts in this Limited set are not a big surprise for me. Actually the solution would be so simple, just scale down by few % points the design and press ENTER. It is not like one has to start from scratch to build a new master for resin casting!

 

Best regards

Gabor

Edited September 28, 2023 by ya-gabor

[ya-gabor]

Getting back to the question of Real Natural Metal finish with a clear varnish cote in comparison with the Varnish + Aluminium paste surface. It seems that this debate periodically resurfaces. Had a look in my archive and exactly 10 years ago here on ARC in another forum the same question was the topic of the day.

 

At the time I made some comparison photos of placing big chunks of metal next to each other so they are under same light condition and show well the difference.

 

 

The surface with clear varnish protection has a very distinct shine to it! In areas during spraying the varnish has accumulated too much and even “run down" in drops. It has a slight yellowish feel to it, very slight I should add, so don’t start mixing yellow to your clear varnish!

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

3 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

 

Hi Dai Phan,

 

I am just another modeller as any other on forums. Why should they listen to me? Apart from speaking to them (AMMO reps) at this years Moson show, I have absolutely no connection to them. So why would they listen to comments? I have sent to them my remarks through a friend.

 

There are companies who know me very well and I have good personal relation with some of them, in most cases they do not listen either. They have their own experts with in company (or long term outside contributors) who help them in design and development.

I don’t have any sleepless night because of this!

Have to say don’t really care! The one thing in which I am interested in is to see a good and authentic kit on my workbench. Parts missing or wrong design I replace with my own, it is like this with this kit also, already made many bits and pieces for myself.

 

I cannot believe Ammo did not check their products before packaging their Limited Edition ! People who did not know of my build will be in for a BIG surprise as the seat is over sized and thus worthless ! Dai  

 

How well do different parts fit? like 3D printed extras or cast resin parts? Or even photoetch. It was exactly with this MiG-17 kit that a Czech producer of photoetched parts did not do any test builds and pressed the product into production. So the 3D parts in this Limited set are not a big surprise for me. Actually the solution would be so simple, just scale down by few % points the design and press ENTER. It is not like one has to start from scratch to build a new master for resin casting!

 

Best regards

Gabor

I am sure Ammo will scale down the seats in subsequent releases. I wonder if they will send out replacements to affected ones like me. I am going to send Ammo a text to see what they say. Dai 

[GeneK]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:52 AM, dai phan said:

I think ones who want to order the limited edition should really consider. 

Wish I had know about the Limited Edition shortcomings before I laid down the extra dollars. Not a good way to highlight a new product.

 

Gene K

 

[dai phan]

11 minutes ago, GeneK said:

Wish I had know about the Limited Edition shortcomings before I laid down the extra dollars. Not a good way to highlight a new product.

 

Gene K

 

Hi Gene

 

I will send Ammo my concerns so perhaps they will stop rolling out the production. Will keep you here all informed. Dai 

[dai phan]

Greetings to all,

 

Sent to Ammo this morning along with this photo... Will keep you all updated. Dai 

 

Hello,

I am building the new Mig 17 with the Limited Edition. The 3D printed seat unfortunately is much bigger than the kit's. Therefore it does not fit into the tub. I would like to let you know of the problem. Correction the seat size should not be difficult with software. For those who are affected by this, any chance you may send us replacements? Thank you very much and I look forward to hearing from you. Dai Phan 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by dai phan

[ya-gabor]

Concerning the size of the ejection seat in the AMMO kit and the 3D version.

 

Actually I have measured the real MiG-17 seat that I have and compared it to the AMMO 3D seat and the original plastic parts in the kit. The real 1/1 scale seat in size is somewhere half way between the plastic and the 3D printed!   It is exactly the same as for example the Eduard 48th scale MiG-21 kit RS-2US missiles which were made both from plastic (in the kit) and also as Brassin extra. The real missile is completely different in size when compared to both kit version and Brassin!!!  

 

The plastic kit seat fits into the cockpit just right. It is smaller than the real seat but here you have to take into account that there has to be a certain minimal thickness to the plastic parts in injection moulding technology which will most certainly not be the same thickness as that of the aluminium sheets on the real aircraft! I would accept this minimal “correction” in size for the seat to fit into the cockpit.

 

As for the 3D printed part, as mentioned before it should be down scaled to at least the size of the plastic version! Will AMMO do this? It will be interesting to see what they answer to Dai Phan’s letter!

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

Hi Dai Phan,

I had a quick look at the fit of the cockpit parts. Actually on the inner face of the fuselage parts there are grooves for positioning the cockpit inside the fuselage. The side walls fit perfectly into the grooves! I don’t see any problems here. This is why I made no mention of this in the first place.

 

Yes, it could have been even more “certain” fit with a peg and hole arrangement but it works OK as it is and you don’t get any shrinkage marks on the outer side of the fuselage due to a hole and a ring around it ( as it is the case on so many kits) .

 

 

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

Gabor,

 

Yes I discovered the grooves and the cockpit tube fits fine although there is some play front and back, I mentioned this on my build in the other page. Let’s see what Ammo says about the seat. I hope my letter will stop them from printing any more seats. I cannot thank you enough for your feedback. Dai 

[ya-gabor]

OK. So what colour is the cockpit of the MiG-17.

Well basically it depends in which aircraft factory it was built. On the way out of the factory they had an almost standard colour. What happened after that is a completely different story. Here is a good example for this.

 

The “Curtain” type ejection seat in the MiG-17’s was the more advanced version differing considerably from the original ejection seat used in MiG-15’s and early MiG-17’s. It was redesigned in many ways, but the most noticeable was the new big headrest with a face curtain, hence the new name. The reason was simple, one of the problems on ejection with the MiG-15 seats was that after the seat left the cockpit, it was forced by the slipstream air to start an uncontrolled spin which in many cases caused injuries to the pilot. To stabilize the seat a new headrest was designed which had mechanically opening stabilizing flaps as soon as the seat left the guiding rails. The inner surface of these flaps in 99% of its lifetime never seen the light of day so its paint did not really fade!

 

Here comes into view the colour question.

I took a photo of one of these flaps which shows well the problem with cockpit colours. Although the paint was not aged by light, but it did age in a way and started to peel off in places where the surface was not properly cleaned / degreased prior to painting.

 

So what we have here???  

 

 

Several layers of completely different paint / colour overlapping each other on the MiG-17 ejection seat! The given aircraft was manufactured in Soviet Union, it served in Hungarian AF but the overhaul was completed in Bulgaria. Each time a completely different paint was used to repaint the cockpit, including the ejection seats!

 

So ONLY the original aircraft factory colour was certain!

One other thing is also certain that in the 1950-60’s the MiG-17 cockpits NEVER had the later Migs common turquois blue/green colour!

 

Research your subject!!! Which time period in its life time do you want to represent.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

[ya-gabor]

Hi Dai Phan,

 

Nice work! Thanks for taking the time to have a closer look!

 

A nice early plain MiG-17 with nonafterburning VK-1 engine, early style small airbrakes, narrow rear fuselage, "early" MiG-15 style ejection seat. But it already has the canopy with a periscope.

Yes, it would be nice to give at least a proper wash to it. Shame for the camouflage scheme.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

5 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

Hi Dai Phan,

 

Nice work! Thanks for taking the time to have a closer look!

 

A nice early plain MiG-17 with nonafterburning VK-1 engine, early style small airbrakes, narrow rear fuselage, "early" MiG-15 style ejection seat. But it already has the canopy with a periscope.

Yes, it would be nice to give at least a proper wash to it. Shame for the camouflage scheme.

 

Best regards

Gabor

Sadly it is rooting away. In 10 years it will be a rusty eye sore. Dai

[ya-gabor]

Yes, unfortunately it is visible! It should be kept under roof! And I would completely wash it down, not only the dirt and leaves but also the false paint on it. This could be a great exhibit!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More over since it is an early "simple" MiG-17 with nonafterburning VK-1 engine. Back in ex Soviet states today there are hundreds of these all around! But on this side of the new Iron Curtain there are very few of them! Most of the exhibits in US museums (and the flying examples) are the later versions with afterburner engines or even the radar equipped ones. As a direct opposite on the Soviet side you dont really find these later versions only the really early ones. 

 

So it could be a very special exhibits in right hands!!!!!!! As far as I can see from the photos it has all the panels, all the parts! OK the gun barrels are missing, but that could be replaced with replicas. Even I have some original muzzles so it would be absolutely no problem to make new replicas!

 

I know in Germany some museums have pre organized weekends for aviation enthusiasts where they can do some so to say "charity work" and spend hours in doing the work that the given museum either has no money or manpower for. It is a Win-Win situation where aviation "fanatics" get a chance to do some work on beloved aircraft, while the museum gets the aircraft cleaned / resored at no cost what so ever. All they have to provide is access, electricity, water and a minimal support. So many aircraft are cleaned, washed to make them look much much much better. 

In the past even the Monino museum not far from Moscow had a volunteer band of guys and even girls going out every weekend to do some real work, in the winter to get the snow from the wings, restore, repaint some parts, remake some canopies . . . 

 

Here in Hungary until about a decade ago we also had a chance to do this kind of volunteer work in the Air Force Museum, but some military leaders were not so happy about civilians and now state museum owners have banned this sort of thing! : )  : )   : )   Simply stupid!!! 

 

Best regards

Gabor 

[P-38 guy]

On 9/26/2023 at 2:09 PM, dai phan said:

Hi all,

 

I went back and check per recommendation of Raymond and yes there is a groove to hold the tub in. However it slides 3 mm back and forth so I will need to check the references to see where the seat sits. Dai 

I just got the point of test fitting the cockpit and don't have a problem. There are groves top and bottom that match the lips on the cockpit sides and it lines right up in those and does not move. Maybe double check your alignment again.

 

Mike

[Curt B]

On 10/1/2023 at 5:00 AM, dai phan said:

Sadly it is rooting away. In 10 years it will be a rusty eye sore. Dai

That is so sad...but thanks, Dai, for taking and posting those great pictures!  I still haven't made it over to  Nellis AFB, due to some medical issues, but I still plan to do so relatively soon and post the images I take.

[ya-gabor]

6 hours ago, Curt B said:

That is so sad...but thanks, Dai, for taking and posting those great pictures!  I still haven't made it over to  Nellis AFB, due to some medical issues, but I still plan to do so relatively soon and post the images I take.

Get well!

 

Gabor

[dai phan]

Hi all,

 

I will write a letter to the Curator of the deteriorating condition of the Mig. Perhaps Gofundme set up by me may provide the restoration process ? Dai 

[dai phan]

Please advise and I will write a letter to the Curator if Gofundme could provide restoration process. It is so sad to see this Mig rotting away. Dai

[ya-gabor]

Hi Dai Phan,

 

The idea is fantastic! Hope it works!

I can only help with some of my own experiences when we did a “Big Wash” of a MiG-21F-13 aircraft here.

 

First and most important is to speak with the Curator or the most important person / owner! We did our work on the Fishbed with full cooperation from the Technical Director of the airfield. BUT the follow up of the work was stopped by the highest owner who was very annoyed with “civilians” doing work at their own expense and time on his airfield! So get, preferably a written agreement from the most important person of the given museum!

 

You will need a small group of enthusiast willing to spend time and work on the given aircraft. The optimal is around 4-5 persons, the maximum is around 7 or 8. Very simple, you will not have enough space around and on the aircraft for more than that, more participants would get into way of others during work! So no point in getting a big team. In our team we had all sorts of people but common denominator was that they very interested in keeping the aircraft in good shape, restoring it. Even had an aviation engineer who has in his life time seen and did some work on a real MiG-21F-13!

 

It is not easy to agree on one particular date which would be acceptable for each participant and for the museum also. It takes some phone calls and emails to get it all arranged. I was lucky in bringing it all together in around two weeks.

 

Apart from agreement from Curator, the museum would need to provide minimal support in the form of mains, some water supply, ladders and it would be easier if they can provide their own power washer equipment so you don’t have to take your own.

 

Do some planning of what you want to do and show this plan to the Curator and have him/her agree on this! The only thing which is out of your control is weather!

 

Apart from enthusiasm and your work / time what you would need are basic cleaning things, gloves, brushes, paper towels, buckets, basic tool box. . . No real costs here, everything that one has at home.

 

It is important to decide on what you want to achieve with your project / work.

Washing down the aircraft will most probably take off some (most) of the flaking paint. It will result in a patchy overall look to the aircraft which would hardly be acceptable to the museum in long run. So you certainly need a second step of painting after this!

 

To strip down completely the current paint would take more effort than just a simple wash. (but of course it depends on the condition of the aircraft) If you strip it down, you will need to repaint it also somehow for protecting the surfaces for the years to come. I would say this would be another weekend at least! And of course this would involve buying some paints, thinners. . . From here on it is not only enthusiasm but also some money! Making some mask for the aircraft numbers, national insignias. . . What scheme should it be? Once again close coordination with Curator and constant feedback!

 

Striping down would reveal the true identity of the aircraft, its original markings, aircraft number and even stencils. Question is, does the museum want this to happen? Do they want to keep the aircraft as a Vietnamese counterpart from the Vietnam war? (In view of the Phantom in the background)

A plain aluminium scheme was used by the Vietnamese for most of the war, so a clear varnish protection overall paint could work just as well! Not only a camouflage!

 

It is important to record all steps of your work!

 

I would most certainly air out the cockpit! There is a very high likelihood that you will find a lot of water in the bottom of the cockpit! (In another museum MiG-21 we found some 120 litres of water!!!!!!!!)  

The rubber pressurization seals around the canopy edge rots away with time and rain and condensation tends to accumulate inside! And of course it is always interesting to see what is inside an early MiG-17 cockpit!  : )  : )

 

It is possible to do all this!!! But takes thinking through everything and lots of preplanning, time and some money in the end! The end result could be a fantastic exhibit!!!!! Which would be in the interest of the museum, an excellent project to do in saving a nice aircraft and also some pride to you!

 

Good luck!

I would love to be in this team but it is a bit far away for me from here in Europe! : (  : (

 

Here is what we did with the MiG-21F-13.

 

Pali hard at work!

 

 

Washing the wing top surface 

 

 

 

 

A lot of dirt and moss accumulated in many decades on the aircraft!

 

 

It is important to record, in this case on a tracing paper the exact shape and size of any markings you find on the surface under the dirt and latter paint layers, to have a 100% correct copy of what there was! It will be essential in manufacturing the masks for repainting the markings in authentic way!  In this case there were several versions of the aircraft number applied with each general overhaul! Also in slightly different position. And with different colours of red (applied at the very same overhaul paint shop with few years of difference!!!), so I had at hand an Federal Standard chart with me to get the colours right.

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

1 hour ago, ya-gabor said:

Hi Dai Phan,

 

The idea is fantastic! Hope it works!

I can only help with some of my own experiences when we did a “Big Wash” of a MiG-21F-13 aircraft here.

 

First and most important is to speak with the Curator or the most important person / owner! We did our work on the Fishbed with full cooperation from the Technical Director of the airfield. BUT the follow up of the work was stopped by the highest owner who was very annoyed with “civilians” doing work at their own expense and time on his airfield! So get, preferably a written agreement from the most important person of the given museum!

 

You will need a small group of enthusiast willing to spend time and work on the given aircraft. The optimal is around 4-5 persons, the maximum is around 7 or 8. Very simple, you will not have enough space around and on the aircraft for more than that, more participants would get into way of others during work! So no point in getting a big team. In our team we had all sorts of people but common denominator was that they very interested in keeping the aircraft in good shape, restoring it. Even had an aviation engineer who has in his life time seen and did some work on a real MiG-21F-13!

 

It is not easy to agree on one particular date which would be acceptable for each participant and for the museum also. It takes some phone calls and emails to get it all arranged. I was lucky in bringing it all together in around two weeks.

 

Apart from agreement from Curator, the museum would need to provide minimal support in the form of mains, some water supply, ladders and it would be easier if they can provide their own power washer equipment so you don’t have to take your own.

 

Do some planning of what you want to do and show this plan to the Curator and have him/her agree on this! The only thing which is out of your control is weather!

 

Apart from enthusiasm and your work / time what you would need are basic cleaning things, gloves, brushes, paper towels, buckets, basic tool box. . . No real costs here, everything that one has at home.

 

It is important to decide on what you want to achieve with your project / work.

Washing down the aircraft will most probably take off some (most) of the flaking paint. It will result in a patchy overall look to the aircraft which would hardly be acceptable to the museum in long run. So you certainly need a second step of painting after this!

 

To strip down completely the current paint would take more effort than just a simple wash. (but of course it depends on the condition of the aircraft) If you strip it down, you will need to repaint it also somehow for protecting the surfaces for the years to come. I would say this would be another weekend at least! And of course this would involve buying some paints, thinners. . . From here on it is not only enthusiasm but also some money! Making some mask for the aircraft numbers, national insignias. . . What scheme should it be? Once again close coordination with Curator and constant feedback!

 

Striping down would reveal the true identity of the aircraft, its original markings, aircraft number and even stencils. Question is, does the museum want this to happen? Do they want to keep the aircraft as a Vietnamese counterpart from the Vietnam war? (In view of the Phantom in the background)

A plain aluminium scheme was used by the Vietnamese for most of the war, so a clear varnish protection overall paint could work just as well! Not only a camouflage!

 

It is important to record all steps of your work!

 

I would most certainly air out the cockpit! There is a very high likelihood that you will find a lot of water in the bottom of the cockpit! (In another museum MiG-21 we found some 120 litres of water!!!!!!!!)  

The rubber pressurization seals around the canopy edge rots away with time and rain and condensation tends to accumulate inside! And of course it is always interesting to see what is inside an early MiG-17 cockpit!  : )  : )

 

It is possible to do all this!!! But takes thinking through everything and lots of preplanning, time and some money in the end! The end result could be a fantastic exhibit!!!!! Which would be in the interest of the museum, an excellent project to do in saving a nice aircraft and also some pride to you!

 

Good luck!

I would love to be in this team but it is a bit far away for me from here in Europe! : (  : (

 

Here is what we did with the MiG-21F-13.

 

Pali hard at work!

 

 

Washing the wing top surface 

 

 

 

 

A lot of dirt and moss accumulated in many decades on the aircraft!

 

 

It is important to record, in this case on a tracing paper the exact shape and size of any markings you find on the surface under the dirt and latter paint layers, to have a 100% correct copy of what there was! It will be essential in manufacturing the masks for repainting the markings in authentic way!  In this case there were several versions of the aircraft number applied with each general overhaul! Also in slightly different position. And with different colours of red (applied at the very same overhaul paint shop with few years of difference!!!), so I had at hand an Federal Standard chart with me to get the colours right.

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

Outstanding! And so many great ideas too! Dai

 

[ya-gabor]

In Progress forum had some comments about YouTube videos in the build of the AMMO MiG-17 kit. Since the videos were published here it is important to comment on it.

 

There are plain simple kit bashings by some “commenters” be it on whatever forum: fakebook, YouTube or modelling forums or the complete opposite. If it makes them happy so be it, internet is such a media.

 

Since I have published first a You Tube unboxing of the AMMO MiG-17 kit, I feel that some of the above comments are a critique of my short films. Everyone can have their own opinion both about a kit and about a review. I for one did those few videos as a pure LOOK at what is inside the box! Some obvious mistakes were noted and mentioned but apart from that it was plain and simple look at frames and everything else in the box. Those questionable 3D printed parts were also shown in close up so that you can decide if you want them or not.

 

Based on this everyone can make up their own mind!

 

In my opinion there is no point in influencing anybody either way, for or against a given kit! I believe this is the right way and will do the same in future! Everyone have their own priorities when buying a kit, all one can do is to have a LOOK and show what is inside the box.

 

The actual AMMO MiG-17 I received from a friend who knew that I am very interested in it! It was not from the company and have no connection or any obligation to them. So had no reason to go either way in the videos, it was just a LOOK inside the box nothing more.   

 

One can hardly say that I have bias in my latest “look” at a kit released in 1986, which is long gone from shops, the company itself has been out of business for around 30 years. So what kind of future cooperation and free samples would I expect???  : )  : )  : )

 

The 1986 kit is a P.P. Models Eager Beaver forklift tractor in 72nd scale, it is just a time travel into the past! Pure look at modelling history, where our hobby originates who were some of the pioneering players in the past.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

3 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

In Progress forum had some comments about YouTube videos in the build of the AMMO MiG-17 kit. Since the videos were published here it is important to comment on it.

 

There are plain simple kit bashings by some “commenters” be it on whatever forum: fakebook, YouTube or modelling forums or the complete opposite. If it makes them happy so be it, internet is such a media.

 

Since I have published first a You Tube unboxing of the AMMO MiG-17 kit, I feel that some of the above comments are a critique of my short films. Everyone can have their own opinion both about a kit and about a review. I for one did those few videos as a pure LOOK at what is inside the box! Some obvious mistakes were noted and mentioned but apart from that it was plain and simple look at frames and everything else in the box. Those questionable 3D printed parts were also shown in close up so that you can decide if you want them or not.

 

Based on this everyone can make up their own mind!

 

In my opinion there is no point in influencing anybody either way, for or against a given kit! I believe this is the right way and will do the same in future! Everyone have their own priorities when buying a kit, all one can do is to have a LOOK and show what is inside the box.

 

The actual AMMO MiG-17 I received from a friend who knew that I am very interested in it! It was not from the company and have no connection or any obligation to them. So had no reason to go either way in the videos, it was just a LOOK inside the box nothing more.   

 

One can hardly say that I have bias in my latest “look” at a kit released in 1986, which is long gone from shops, the company itself has been out of business for around 30 years. So what kind of future cooperation and free samples would I expect???  : )  : )  : )

 

The 1986 kit is a P.P. Models Eager Beaver forklift tractor in 72nd scale, it is just a time travel into the past! Pure look at modelling history, where our hobby originates who were some of the pioneering players in the past.

 

Best regards

Gabor

I cannot thank you enough for every thing you have done. Dai 

[ya-gabor]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:38 AM, Curt B said:

That is so sad...but thanks, Dai, for taking and posting those great pictures!  I still haven't made it over to  Nellis AFB, due to some medical issues, but I still plan to do so relatively soon and post the images I take.

Hi Curt B,

 

Hope you are well!

Did you ever manage to get out to that MiG-17 at the base?

 

Best regards

Gabor