Not totally a prop thing but a group build proposal....

[Flyboyf18]

Skyhawk174 and I were talking in Gen Disscuss on an unrelated thread so we thought we would bring it out front.

With the soon to be released CP-140 decals from Flightdecs we discussed a Long Range Maritime Patrol G.B. and of course you guys are being questioned about the concept.

We have P-3s, many nations use these, the Aurora, the Atlantique, used by several nations, Fokker F-28s, Dornier 228s (?), and then the jets, Nimrod, Viking, Boeing 737 and there are probably others.

Of course the only one missing, :unsure: is an Argus!!!

So what is the feeling on this one?

[anotherP51nut]

That G.B. sounds really interesting actually. Shackletons and post-war maritime Lancasters from diffrerent countries would be nice to see, as would some of the Russian aircraft.

Yes, a 1/72 Argus would be amazing! Not much hope for that though.

Cheers,

Richard

[phantom]

I have all ready built two CP-140's don't really see any more coming......But I do have a Lancaster I could do.......Would prefer it as the drone controller, I would "guess" that early CEPE Lanc was still considerded a Maritime patrol aircraft of sorts.

[kitnut617]

I've got a 1/72 scale Canadiar Argus (it's a vacuform) I could do. Problem is I don't have time right now to join in, going to be very busy for the next few months.

Robert

Edit: Of coarse, they've just had a CG/SAR GB over on the What-If Forum, this was my entry which falls into this one don't you think:

Edited July 14, 2008 by kitnut617

[Aaronw]

Don't forget the Liberator, Privateer, Ventura, Harpoon, Catalina, Mariner, Marlin, Mercator, Sunderland, Walrus etc. Tons of aircraft out there for this, and lots of them even have kits available.

I guess it really just comes down to how tight you want to make the definition, maritime patrol, patrol bombers, long range patrol (what is "long range"), do you include air-sea rescue services? etc. I have lots of kits that qualify so I'd probably come and play depending on the final decision of what qualifies.

[Slartibartfast]

Nor forget the odd B-17 doing Patrol and S&R dropping life boats. I forget the Navy designation.

Robert, just LOVE the Lanc in the "water" shot. Okay, so what if it's frozen water...

Edited July 14, 2008 by Slartibartfast

[illithid00]

I could be persuaded to build a Tu-95...

[kitnut617]

Robert, just LOVE the Lanc in the "water" shot. Okay, so what if it's frozen water...

Thanks Slartibartfast, the model started off with a Novo 1/72 Shackleton kit, I added a Flightpath Lincoln nose, stretched the rear fuselage about 30mm and added a Lanc tail turret with twin .5's, fins & rudders were made bigger and then re-shaped to look like a Lanc's, and then modified a Lanc canopy to fit. The wings got the Aeroclub Shackleton MR.2 conversion which included the dorsal turret with 20mm's and the engine nacelles I scratch built to suit the Wyvern props I put on it. Floats came from a 1/24 scale Spitfire.

After I had taken my inside photos of it the evening before, we had some fresh snow overnight so I thought this would simulate water quite well, my buddy James took that photo and photoshopped it into this:

[Flyboyf18]

Don't forget the Liberator, Privateer, Ventura, Harpoon, Catalina, Mariner, Marlin, Mercator, Sunderland, Walrus etc. Tons of aircraft out there for this, and lots of them even have kits available.

I guess it really just comes down to how tight you want to make the definition, maritime patrol, patrol bombers, long range patrol (what is "long range"), do you include air-sea rescue services? etc. I have lots of kits that qualify so I'd probably come and play depending on the final decision of what qualifies.

Long Range Maritime Patrol refers to fixed wing a/c that patrol the oceans looking for 'hostile?' sub surface and surface ships. Technically they are land based but since the Viking has AAR it can stay airborne as long as the crews bladders hold out!? They all usually have a SAR secondary tasking although unless it is a flying boat it is hard to do the R part!? So, my thoughts are strictly Maritime Patrol a/c, the birds that bored holes in the air for many hours looking for the needle (periscope) in the giant haystack (ocean) with the intent to sink it if necessary. To the best of my knowledge there has been no GB dedicated to this type of a/c, so with a new set of decals on the way I figured what the hey? Start time in the next few months, maybe Sept. when modelling season starts up again, again the thoughts of this community are important.

[Aaronw]

I think it is a great idea for a build, I was just throwing some questions out there to think about. "Long Range Maritime Patrol" is a rather broad statement, I wasn't sure if you are looking for a narrow build focused on purpose built post-WW2 subhunters (P2V, P3) or a more open ended build including aircraft that had anti-shipping / subhunting as one of their uses.

The long range part is the most confusing, I know some like the P2V and P3 are there no question but what about smaller aircraft like the S2 Tracker or PV-1 / 2 Ventura / Harpoon?

The WW2 patrol bombers like the B-24, B-25 could fit, although I believe they were more concerned with surface targets, with subs more of a target of opportunity.

Aircraft like the Air Sea Rescue B-17s or USCG C130s could also fit although their mission isn't so much sub hunting as recon and search of large areas for people lost at sea, smugglers, enemy shipping etc.

Even a Sea King could potentially fit into the build as it hunts subs but I'm guessing is short range.

Not saying any of these should or should not be included just trying to get a feel for how wide a build you are considering. Then again maybe that was the point of your post, to find out how big a net you need. Regardless there are plenty of subjects I'm pretty sure would qualify that I could be interested in so I'd most likely join in, just need a little guidence to see what I have that would fit.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Aaronw

[Aaronw]

Does this wikipedia entry fit what you are picturing for the build? If so it has a pretty decent list of aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_aircraft

[philgold]

Gives me an excuse to drag that Nimrod out of the stash...

I've also got the newer 1/72 Revell Fw200 Kondor somewhere...

Phil

Edited July 15, 2008 by philgold

[skyhawk174]

You know I think I should talk to Graham and we can make a list of eligible aircraft. That way if it is not on the list then it is a no-no. I would think this would then make it easier to decide if you want to take part or not.

How about this definition from Wikipedia

A Maritime patrol aircraft, also simply patrol aircraft, or by the older term patrol bomber, is a fixed wing aircraft designed to operate for long durations over water in maritime patrol, anti-shipping, anti submarine and search and rescue roles.

I think we can eliminate the search and rescue component as well as any aircraft with a boat hull like the Do 24 or Emily. So for a first cut through here is a small list

Consolidated B-24 Liberator

Focke-Wulf Fw-200 Condor

Lockheed Ventura

Hawker Nimrod

Avro Shackelton

Grumman Tracker

Breguet Atlantique

Boeing P-8 Poseidon

Fairey Gannet

Canadair CP-107 Argus

Fokker F-27 Maritime

Ilyushin Il-38

Lockhheed P-2 Neptune

Lockheed P-3 Orion

Lockheed CP-140 Aurora

Lockheed S-3 Viking

Tupolev Tu-142

I believe there are kits for all of these, well except for the Argus. I only put that in there for Graham Some will take a little bit of conversion but nothing impossible.

Edited July 16, 2008 by skyhawk174

[Flyboyf18]

That's the best way to do this, use a list; and after having a quick look at the list in the Wiki entry I would use it completely gives a larger base to go from and add at least the Bear J (unless they mean that by Tu142) as you say this avoids problems of "How about this kit?"

How's that?

[skyhawk174]

That's the best way to do this, use a list; and after having a quick look at the list in the Wiki entry I would use it completely gives a larger base to go from and add at least the Bear J (unless they mean that by Tu142) as you say this avoids problems of "How about this kit?"

How's that?

Yeah the Tu-142 is a "Bear". Also, you see I put the Lib on the list since I remember that Aviaology recently released some CDN sheets for maritime patrol.

I was wondering about the Alizé but I think that is more ECM than Sub hunting?

[Chuck1945]

Dont forget:

Lockheed/Vega PV-2 Harpoon

Lockheed/Vega Hudson

Avro Lancaster

Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer

While post war the definition may have been more anti-sub, during WWII patrol bombers were also anti-ship. Eliminate the anti-ship and you loose the Fw 200, as well as most USN WWII patrol bombers from the Pacific were the mission was more anti-shipping then anti-sub.

Since many flying boats were labeled patrol bombers (as in PBY (Patrol Bomber Consolidated) Catalina) it is kinds hard to justify leaving them out. Also the Sunderland may not have had a PB label, but the ones in Coastal Command flew long patrols 'boring holes in the sky' seeking U-boats. so it is kinda hard to justify omitting them as well.

[DarylH]

It seems like the Albatros should fit in........

[skyhawk174]

Dont forget:

Lockheed/Vega PV-2 Harpoon

Lockheed/Vega Hudson

Avro Lancaster

Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer

While post war the definition may have been more anti-sub, during WWII patrol bombers were also anti-ship. Eliminate the anti-ship and you loose the Fw 200, as well as most USN WWII patrol bombers from the Pacific were the mission was more anti-shipping then anti-sub.

Since many flying boats were labeled patrol bombers (as in PBY (Patrol Bomber Consolidated) Catalina) it is kinds hard to justify leaving them out. Also the Sunderland may not have had a PB label, but the ones in Coastal Command flew long patrols 'boring holes in the sky' seeking U-boats. so it is kinda hard to justify omitting them as well.

PV-2 I could go with as well as the Hudson. Privateer is a definite. I think the Lancaster was more a search and rescue but I may be wrong here. I keep seeing SAR on Red bands in my mind when I think of CDN Lancs.

[Chuck1945]

...I think the Lancaster was more a search and rescue but I may be wrong here. I keep seeing SAR on Red bands in my mind when I think of CDN Lancs.

Canadian Lancs may have been S&R (I really dont know anything about the RCAF), but in the immediate post-war period before the Shackleton was available, the RAF use Lancasters (MR/GR designations) as a long range patrol aircraft.

[skyhawk174]

It seems like the Albatros should fit in........

Daryl I think we will be steering away from anything with a boat hull. Makes it simpler.

[Chuck1945]

Daryl I think we will be steering away from anything with a boat hull. Makes it simpler.

If the proposal is for patrol bombers, defined at least in part as long range aircraft flying anti-sub patrols, you cant exclude flying boats. For one thing, the USN defined them as Patrol Bombers (PB) and more importantly, the Sunderland/Catalina/Mariner were all used for anti-sub long range patrols, even being equiped (in the PBY's case) with early forms of MAD gear.

Instead of any inclusive definition of patrol bombers, that could easily exclude an aircraft that was used for strictly S&R (that would be determined by markings, not a/c type) you want to gerrymander the definition of 'patrol bomber' to exclude valid long range anti-sub types just to exclude flying boats? To make it simpler??

[ian lanc]

that linc/lanc/shac 'what if' is ace ! ;) talk about hijacking a thread with style :lol:

Edited July 17, 2008 by ian lanc

[Aaronw]

It doesn't make a lot of sense to exclude some of the major aircraft just because it can land in the water. Before air to air refueling flying boats were the ultimate long range aircraft since most already had a long range (1000-3000 miles) and they could land and refuel from ships at sea. They also could carry decent sized bomb loads so naturally made good subhunters.

Obviously not all flying boats were used to hunt subs, for example the HU-16 Albatros mentioned was designed and used primarily as a search and rescue aircraft, not anti-ship/sub patrol so I can see the reason to exclude it along many other flying boats.

The Catalina, Coronado, Mariner and Sunderland were a major part of the Allied WW2 anti-sub effort.

The Martin Marlin, Soviet Be-6 and Be-12 were post war maritime patrol aircraft designed for anti-sub patrols, the Marlin carried MAD gear which is pretty specific for hunting subs.

[JasonW]

It doesn't make a lot of sense to exclude some of the major aircraft just because it can land in the water. Before air to air refueling flying boats were the ultimate long range aircraft since most already had a long range (1000-3000 miles) and they could land and refuel from ships at sea. They also could carry decent sized bomb loads so naturally made good subhunters.

Obviously not all flying boats were used to hunt subs, for example the HU-16 Albatros mentioned was designed and used primarily as a search and rescue aircraft, not anti-ship/sub patrol so I can see the reason to exclude it along many other flying boats.

The Catalina, Coronado, Mariner and Sunderland were a major part of the Allied WW2 anti-sub effort.

The Martin Marlin, Soviet Be-6 and Be-12 were post war maritime patrol aircraft designed for anti-sub patrols, the Marlin carried MAD gear which is pretty specific for hunting subs.

I would tend to agree with this.

I think the qualifier would be to not allow SAR and only permit Maritime Patrol/ASW type aircraft. Maybe also add the qualifier that is must be multi-engined and primarily non-ship based. The S2F would count because several nations used it as a land based ASW patrol type. Marlin, Be-6/10/12, and the Martin P6M Sea Master would be allowed as well because their primary mission was that of maritime patrol and ASW.

Just my $0.02 (or, with inflation $0.0002)

Edited July 18, 2008 by JasonW

[VG 33]

Hello

The Breguet Alizé is the same type as the Gannet.

But the MACH 2 kit is not a piece of cake.

Patrick