Do Employees Have Rights

[The_Animal]

Its the age old argument. I don't think that its a zero sum game though. For some products, consumers want to buy as cheaply as possible. For others, some consumers want to have the products and good service. There will always be a market of consumers who will pay for good service from good employees. I believe that most of these customers will recognize that added service and expertise will come at a premium.

But the pricing of the premium and how that translates to final product price, employee compensation and ultimately 'bottom line' is much more complicated.

Company has to buy from manufacturer...they price in a markup for profit and put the product on the shelf.

Customer buys the product... (purchase price - cost of product (from manufacturer) = profit margin.

Company pays bills + employee compensation out of that profit margin. If the profit margin doesn't meet up with the outlay in expenses and employee compensation, then the company ends up in the red. And too many years of that will put the company out of business. It's really simple.

Frankly, the profit margin isn't as high on products as you might think. Obviously the profit margin is higher on products that turnover quickly like groceries and other items, but when you're dealing in a product specific market such as electronics, you're not going to have that large of a profit margin.

As far as some consumers wanting to have products and good service; well...I had one that wanted to buy a Canon 40D and two pro-grade lenses and he wanted me to knock off $500.00 off the top for the body. Keep in mind that most profit margins for lenses and bodies are only about 10% at the most. That was about $380-400.00 more than I was willing to bargain down to. I told him, that "If you want me to give you that amount of a discount, are you prepared to pay my salary for the next year?"

His answer: "No...why should I?"

"Well, if I give you that discount, I'm going to be on your front doorstep demanding $38,000 (compensation for salary lost + damages), because I'm going to get my @$$ fired. And you can count on that."

He bought the camera at list price and the lenses. Some of these customers will push you to see how far you give. I have about as much give as a 5 foot thick concrete + rebar reinforced retaining wall.

Edited August 11, 2010 by The_Animal

[CorsairMan]

Company has to buy from manufacturer...they price in a markup for profit and put the product on the shelf.

Customer buys the product... (purchase price - cost of product (from manufacturer) = profit margin.

Company pays bills + employee compensation out of that profit margin. If the profit margin doesn't meet up with the outlay in expenses and employee compensation, then the company ends up in the red. And too many years of that will put the company out of business. It's really simple.

Is it? If you are the sort of business that simply buys from the local distributor, puts the MSRP on the box and puts it on the shelf while paying minimum wage... then yes, I suppose it is that simple. A different manager/owner will spend hours finding, negotiating supply, hire experts, spend on promotion and will price product different from the shelf stocker. Can the two compete on price? Likely not. Then again, the two won't be able to compete on service either. So no, I don't think its as simple as you say.

Frankly, the profit margin isn't as high on products as you might think. Obviously the profit margin is higher on products that turnover quickly like groceries and other items, but when you're dealing in a product specific market such as electronics, you're not going to have that large of a profit margin.

I don't want to bog this down but electronics has a ton of margin built into them - for the manufacturers. They are generally made in places where people make less than a dollar per hour and then brought over here to sell for rediculous amounts of money when first introduced.... then reduced by huge amounts as time goes by. Again, that is oversimplification but Apple did not make billions by selling product with razor thin margins.

I know you are talking retail though - and that is different.

[Jinxter13]

That's what happens when companies turn around and seek the "bottom-line".

An old friend of mine (WWII veteran) who owned a bar and met all kinds of "customers", and paid his personnel very well; said companies who want the profit margin to go up, and the overhead to go down hire unqualified people his adage was "When you pay peanuts and bananas, you're gonna get monkeys to work for you".

[The_Animal]

Is it? If you are the sort of business that simply buys from the local distributor, puts the MSRP on the box and puts it on the shelf while paying minimum wage... then yes, I suppose it is that simple. A different manager/owner will spend hours finding, negotiating supply, hire experts, spend on promotion and will price product different from the shelf stocker. Can the two compete on price? Likely not. Then again, the two won't be able to compete on service either. So no, I don't think its as simple as you say.

Frankly, I don't think that most businesses that want to remain competitive do the second route. Because employees who are considered experts in their field don't come cheaply.

I don't want to bog this down but electronics has a ton of margin built into them - for the manufacturers. They are generally made in places where people make less than a dollar per hour and then brought over here to sell for rediculous amounts of money when first introduced.... then reduced by huge amounts as time goes by. Again, that is oversimplification but Apple did not make billions by selling product with razor thin margins.

I know you are talking retail though - and that is different.

It may be that the margin is built in. But most manufacturers have a MSRP and a Special Net which is the cost of the item to the purchaser (in this case, the store). That is the margin that you end up having to take into account when you deal with electronics. Until the Special Net is decreased, the margin doesn't increase, in which case, the MSRP is reduced accordingly. So no...you don't have that margin...and you cannot expect it from the store either. The manufacturer sets the MSRP...and the Special Net and that's what we stick to. And YOU...as the customer are NOT going to get the "Special Net" cost either.

Edited August 11, 2010 by The_Animal

[The_Animal]

http://notalwaysright.com/it-will-be-kilo-...he-gets-it/6351

Oh, the things I could do to this poor schmuck.

Me: “Alright, your cell phone will be in service in twenty to thirty minutes.â€

Customer: “How much is that in American time?â€

Me: “I’m sorry?â€

Customer: “Well, in Canada you use the Metric system, right?â€

"In Metric, one hour is equal to 2.35 American hrs, so your phone will be up in 1 hour and 20 minutes..."

Do not mess with this former CSR or he will happily pick your brain apart and leave you screaming for mercy. :)

Edited August 11, 2010 by The_Animal

[johnny_7713]

Obviously the profit margin is higher on products that turnover quickly like groceries and other items, but when you're dealing in a product specific market such as electronics, you're not going to have that large of a profit margin.

Actually the profit margin on groceries is very low. I remember reading an article in the newspaper that supermarkets (at least here in the Netherlands) have a profit margin in the order of 0.1%. They make their money off sheer volume, I'm guessing the same goes for most other high turnover items.

[DutyCat]

A lot of punters and staff alike forget that there's no obligation to serve anyone so long as you don't discriminate. The management reserves the right, etc etc, should be used more often. Unfortunately, big retailers and other organisations generally micro-manage their staff to an absurd degree*, show no trust in them whatsoever, and leave them absolutely no choice but to grin and bear it. Staff must be loyal to their employers; how loyal are the employers to their staff, hmm?

Well, I have to say that is a very European attitude. I have traveled much of Europe and one observation I have made is that there is not a lot of "customer needs are primary" attitude among most retail or wait staff. It is more of an attitude of "we are doing you a favor to serve you or help you." In the USA, it is the other way around. The customer is doing the establishment a favor by shopping there instead of at a competitor. It is the establishment's responsibility to earn and keep your patronage though excellent customer service. That is the standard.

As far as loyalty....well, just like the above.....it is a business decision. An employer is under no obligation to keep an employee if it is not cost effective to the company. An employee is under no obligation to stay with a company if he can get a better job elsewhere. Your job security relates to your value in the current business climate and labor market. If you want job security....look in the mirror. That is who is responsible for your job security and livelihood.

[pigsty]

Well, I have to say that is a very European attitude. [etc, etc]

What? Where in buggery did you find that in what I posted? I didn't say at all that staff should treat customers the way you describe. The OP was about punters being rude and unreasonable to staff, and all I did was point out that retailers are entitled to chuck 'em out the door if this happens, but don't do it as often as they might.

[phantom]

In my job it all depends. I have the right to defend myself and others from attack. I have done so on many an occasion.

But it all depends.

A lawyers and courts getting involved. "Why did you put him in a reverse arm bar and bloody his nose when a lolly-pop and a hug would have sufficed?"

I just finished a deal where because the family is sueing over a death (at his own hands) management tried to fire me for "negligent homicide". Now, because my records were in order I was able to defend myself just fine. Crap near the end of my "trial" they tried to PROMOTE me again!@!!! (I said "no".) But the union is fully aware 80-90% of staff would have been on the hook as my record keeping tends to be a little over the top and anal.

I have lost count of the amount of complaints, always fake, of a criminal claiming I "violated his rights " somehow. Always looking for a payout. One year it must have been 10. Most times its a crazy person issue, sometimes its just "ahhhh it was the big bald guy" when I was not even on duty that day.

All I have is the "right" to defend myself................. Only 12 years of this crap to go....only 12 years to go..............

[Oroka]

The customer is always right because as a business owner, you want them to come back next time. You tell them they are wrong, make them feel bad, they are never coming back. So if the boss gives that customer a coupon or free meal (if it is a restaurant), you lose money that day, but make it up because they come back time after time.

Customer service is a sh!tty career.

[Flying Penguin]

I'm going to leave aside the European baiting but:

In the USA, it is the other way around. The customer is doing the establishment a favor by shopping there instead of at a competitor. It is the establishment's responsibility to earn and keep your patronage though excellent customer service. That is the standard.

Now I don't know what parts of Europe you have been to, but that's exactly how it works here. We do however have different ideas of what is good service. I've travelled a lot in the US and the actual level of service seems no different (i.e. how many times people are helpful, proactive, knowledgeable etc), but the amount of corny non value add cheeriness is quite often ridiculous.

I'm not some miserable sod, I'm usually a pretty happy person, but really, don't ask how I am unless you actually care about the response. Don't greet me with that creepy "I'm on happy pills" smile. Good service is being knowledgeable about your product/service, competent at your job, having enough common sense to act sensibly and reasonably. The addition of greeters and the false cheeriness that a lot of American stores seem to think passes for good service doesn't add anything of value to the experience.

When I go into a store I want to find out what I need to know and purchase the item quickly and receive accurate information. I don't need to be greeted or for the staff to fawn over me. That does not add anything of value. I, like most people I know, choose shops on the basis of price, staff knowledge, staff responsiveness and location, not on how much they fawn.

"The customer is doing them a favour" is the sort of thing that leads to exactly the sort of attitude to staff that makes retail such an awful place to work.

Regards,

Jamie

[Flying Penguin]

The customer is always right because as a business owner, you want them to come back next time. You tell them they are wrong, make them feel bad, they are never coming back.

Sometimes that's the right thing to do. If someone abuses your staff, do you want them to come back? It's not necessarily commercial suicide to ban someone who is more trouble than they are worth.

Jamie

[Hawkeye's Hobbies]

There are good customers and there are bad ones. The owner has to determine which is which. A business cannot afford to have bad customers, that is any customer which costs more to keep than they produce in return for the energy spent to satisfy. You can't be all things to all people, nor should you try. Bad customers tend to take up most of your time and give you little return. They also can cost you the loss of good customers because many don't want to be in a confrontational environment when they patronize a business...even if the confrontation is instigated by another customer.

Our society has unfortunately been rewarding socially unacceptable behavior by condoning it. A customer who makes a scene gets a pass/freebie, so they continue the behavior and others mimic it. Soon everyone is taking advantage of it and the businesses seem to continue to allow and reward it.

I wrote this short article for our company blog/newsletter.

http://expressmarketingmemo.com/2010/07/27...er-never-wrong/

As far as this flight attendant, well his 15 minutes of fame will come and go as fast as the incident happened. All involved will feel some pain from the ordeal, but the general public will soon forget all about it. No lessons learned, no widespread changes in society's behavior. Customers and employees are disposable for most companies, that's part of the core problem!

[Flying Penguin]

There are good customers and there are bad ones. The owner has to determine which is which. A business cannot afford to have bad customers, that is any customer which costs more to keep than they produce in return for the energy spent to satisfy. You can't be all things to all people, nor should you try. Bad customers tend to take up most of your time and give you little return. They also can cost you the loss of good customers because many don't want to be in a confrontational environment when they patronize a business...even if the confrontation is instigated by another customer.

Our society has unfortunately been rewarding socially unacceptable behavior by condoning it. A customer who makes a scene gets a pass/freebie, so they continue the behavior and others mimic it. Soon everyone is taking advantage of it and the businesses seem to continue to allow and reward it.

Spot on!

Jamie

[Yuri]

The site notalwaysright reminded me of something that happened some years ago...

I was working for a consumer's protection association and this guy calls... telling he got a problem... a couple of nights before he had arrived at the train station, called a cab to go to work and....

Well.... it took him maybe 15 minutes to arrive to the point... beacause he wanted to know if the cab driver had some kind of insurance (?), no, not driving insurance... but against damages... uhm...

Because he wanted a refund from the cab company....

"Ok, ok, but, what happened exactly?"

"Well..... while I was on the cab... I had an... uhm... and attack of colitis.... and the cab driver asked 50 euros extra to clean! But I want my money back, don't they have an insurance for this kind of problems?"

Yeah... he sh*it himself inside the cab.... I just couldn't believe it wasn't a prank.... because it was crazy to try to have a refund for such a thing! I wouldn't even tell my mother, go figure ask a refund! The fact was that he wanted the money back FROM US!!!

So I explained him it doesn't work that way, we don't pay anyone.... we just offer legal assistance in case he wanted to sue the cab company for a refund and if he wanted he could have met our lawyer in a couple of days....

No, he never came to our office... but it became an interesting "inter-office" prank to go downstairs, ring the bell and when they answered the intercom say "Uh, I must see your legal, I called some days ago because I had a problem in a cab"

Edited August 12, 2010 by Yuri

[DutyCat]

What? Where in buggery did you find that in what I posted? I didn't say at all that staff should treat customers the way you describe. The OP was about punters being rude and unreasonable to staff, and all I did was point out that retailers are entitled to chuck 'em out the door if this happens, but don't do it as often as they might.

I didn't mean to imply you did. My observation was from my read on this statement:

" A lot of punters and staff alike forget that there's no obligation to serve anyone so long as you don't discriminate. The management reserves the right, etc etc, should be used more often."

In the USA, there is an obligation (inferred) to serve unless a person is being overly abusive. However, it is not a customer's obligation to be nice to a merchant. It certainly makes for a more pleasant business transaction, though. Personally, I always try to be as nice as I can to anyone I am dealing with, especially if they are service industry workers. They have a tough lot.

I guess the best way I can put it is, over on this side of the pond, it is considered the role of business to anticipate and respond to the needs of the customer, even if that customer is having a bad day. Clerk's are expected to take some minor customer complaining as part of the job. Your statement does not seem to represent this value, which is more typically American. No right or wrong....just culturally different.

I'm going to leave aside the European baiting but:

Now I don't know what parts of Europe you have been to, but that's exactly how it works here. We do however have different ideas of what is good service. I've travelled a lot in the US and the actual level of service seems no different (i.e. how many times people are helpful, proactive, knowledgeable etc), but the amount of corny non value add cheeriness is quite often ridiculous.

I'm not some miserable sod, I'm usually a pretty happy person, but really, don't ask how I am unless you actually care about the response. Don't greet me with that creepy "I'm on happy pills" smile. Good service is being knowledgeable about your product/service, competent at your job, having enough common sense to act sensibly and reasonably. The addition of greeters and the false cheeriness that a lot of American stores seem to think passes for good service doesn't add anything of value to the experience.

When I go into a store I want to find out what I need to know and purchase the item quickly and receive accurate information. I don't need to be greeted or for the staff to fawn over me. That does not add anything of value. I, like most people I know, choose shops on the basis of price, staff knowledge, staff responsiveness and location, not on how much they fawn.

"The customer is doing them a favour" is the sort of thing that leads to exactly the sort of attitude to staff that makes retail such an awful place to work.

Regards,

Jamie

Jamie,

Again, it is cultural. No European baiting was intended.

I have spent loads of time in all over Europe, and my impression is as I have described. I was married to a European for 15 years, plus all of my military traveling. (two overseas tours of duty and several cruises). When I first got married, my ex was astonished at the level of retail customer service in the USA. She was used to being left alone when shopping unless she hunted down a clerk. Her girlfriend, who had been over here and visited, used to tease me about being American by saying in an exaggerated voice "Have a NICE day!" I have extended family who live in Germany, and every year when they visit, without fail they remark on the level of interest shown by store clerks here as compared to what they are used to in Europe. I was at a MAC terminal at RAF Mildenhall once. I was trying to get back to the USA. There was a older English gentleman behind the counter. I approached him and said. "Hi, I need to get back to Charleston. What do you have heading out?" This gentleman proceeded to dress me down and basically told me he was "not concerned about what I needed." If, on the other hand, I would "ask" him if he could help me, then he would check the schedule. My jaw just dropped. I sucked up and asked him for help, because I needed to get home. But from an American's view, it was this man's job to respond to my needs, as if I had walked into a hardware store and said to a clerk, "Hi, I need to get a box of nails. I am building a shed behind my house." The European view seems to be that a customer most show respect and appreciation in advance if you want a clerk to help you. Americans are a little more brash and impatient. We want to feel appreciated, and after that we want our needs met now. The thanks usually comes after we have received our goods or services. As an example, we tip generously in restaurants for rapid, attentive service (15-25%). I don't think that the custom in Europe, where a server is lucky to get pocket change after a meal, unless it is at a high end restaurant. No wonder they act like they are doing you a favor by serving you. It even extends down to fast food, where you are charged extra for a packet of ketchup. From an American's point of view, this is ridiculous, cheap, and most assuredly not good customer service.

Those of us who live in the USA are used to being greeted cheerfully and offered help. Often, if we are not approached, we feel unappreciated. Once the clerk has done their due diligence, they are expected to loiter at a discrete distance or help other customers.

The marketing people have figured out that the more personal attention a person gets, the more likely they are to buy. It is just basic marketing and consumers here are used to it. Store clerks are considered sales staff. It is their job to sell you stuff and most are on commission. IIRC, most retail staff in Europe are not on commission. Is that an accurate statement? Whether being greeted and fawned over adds value to the product is not the issue over here. The perception of value is in the pleasantness of the shopping experience.

Now, having said all of that, I think customer service in the USA is going to hell in a hand basket in some industries....airlines, post sale customer IT support, large low priced retail establishments etc.

Edited August 12, 2010 by DutyCat

[johnny_7713]

The thanks usually comes after we have received our goods or services. As an example, we tip generously in restaurants for rapid, attentive service (15-25%). I don't think that the custom in Europe, where a server is lucky to get pocket change after a meal, unless it is at a high end restaurant. No wonder they act like they are doing you a favor by serving you.

One reason for the difference in tipping is that in Europe (well, in Holland at least, but AFAIK the rest of Europe as well) service is included in the price of the meal, unlike in America where waiters have to live off their tips*. Since you are already paying for the service, a tip is an extra 'present' given in recognition of above average service. Having said that, 10% is a customary amount to tip in restaurants.

In Holland (not sure about the rest of Europe) part of the 'experience' of going out for a meal is having a chance to talk with each other without a waiter constantly breathing down your neck. However any establishment where staff act as if they are doing you a favour by serving you (in Dutch eyes) will certainly see a sharp loss of custom.

To Dutch people the American 'Hi, I'm John, I'm here to serve you tonight' style of serving often comes across as overdone and fake. As you said this is mainly a cultural thing, no right or wrong to it.

Your story about the MAC terminal comes across as typically British behaviour by the way (again, cultural differences, not saying anyone is right or wrong), I also have the feeling this occurred some years ago. Any Dutch person I know would be just as shocked as you were, and I think even in Britain today such behaviour would not be accepted.

*Altough I remember reading somewhere the employer has to supplement any tips so that the staff is paid at least the minimum wage