Jump to content

Would anyone be interested...


muscle car group build  

73 members have voted

  1. 1. would you consider it?

    • yes
      39
    • no
      20
    • maybe
      6
    • are you crazy?
      8


Recommended Posts

Caudleryan I applaud you for a great idea, and I'd love to join in with a couple of my favourite classics, but I really cant be doing with all these people arguing the toss about whether or not we should include supercars and late model stuff, I'm sure everyone who loves american muscle cars understands the sort of motors we are talking about and the general spirit of the proposal, to me its all getting a bit silly now and completely off track from your original idea!!!! :rofl:

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 102
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Caudleryan I applaud you for a great idea, and I'd love to join in with a couple of my favourite classics, but I really cant be doing with all these people arguing the toss about whether or not we should include supercars and late model stuff, I'm sure everyone who loves american muscle cars understands the sort of motors we are talking about and the general spirit of the proposal, to me its all getting a bit silly now and completely off track from your original idea!!!! :jaw-dropping:

Raf, On my side of the discussion "not arguing mind you" that I was talking about, Has really nothing to do with pushing ones idea one way or the other, I answered a question on what I believe to be European muscle cars which they are.

Saying that, For Caudleryan to decide on what fits and what does not depends on what his "Intent" is. Make rules to fit ones intention/purpose and stick with that intention.

If his intention is like your thoughts above the rules could be pretty simple American Muscle 1964-1972 emphasizing Big block power houses.

Link to post
Share on other sites
And comparatively to all of your choices, that "Stang" in your avatar handles like a barge too.

Can you tell that to SCCA for me :lol:

By classification, I would be racing STI's, EVO's and none ZO6 corvettes and the like. This day and age the STI and even its WRX brothers are classified as sports car, even insurance companies jumped on it.

Edit: Just looked into SCCA T2, your car is listed in the same category, guess they do not think your car is a barge either.

BMW M3 is in the same class also.

Not sure if you know this or not, there have been corner twisting Mustangs built since 1965 they had an R attached to the name and one needed a racing L.I.C to own them, that pretty much was not changed till the 00R came out.

The older R's did pretty good, enough so that GM argued on the point of sports car rules. They were beating the Corvettes, and GM did not like that, so the rules were writing "two seat" sports car, The Mustangs just lost the back seat to keep out of the classification as a sedan. Now this is a class called Sedan.

Edited by Wayne S
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wayne I did not mean anyone in particular in my post, just hope this GB takes off. I'm also not arguing but I would like to add that over here in the UK and Europe we dont class any cars as ' muscle ' cars, especially the exotica (ferraris, lambos, astons), its just not a term we use. :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites
Wayne I did not mean anyone in particular in my post, just hope this GB takes off. I'm also not arguing but I would like to add that over here in the UK and Europe we dont class any cars as ' muscle ' cars, especially the exotica (ferraris, lambos, astons), its just not a term we use. :lol:

Roger bud,

Keep in mind guys, cars that I did mention are not like the Porsche Carrera GT, Farrari F-430 Etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, to be a muscle car, doesn't the car need to have a rear seat? It's always been my understanding that is why the Corvette, Viper, most Ferarris, etc, etc, are considered sports cars and NOT muscle cars.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Also, to be a muscle car, doesn't the car need to have a rear seat? It's always been my understanding that is why the Corvette, Viper, most Ferarris, etc, etc, are considered sports cars and NOT muscle cars.

What would you call a Porsche 911?

Link to post
Share on other sites

WELL OK!!!! Looks like i get to go to the hobby shops tomorrow. Been a loooong time since i've built a big V-8 American Musclecar. Looked at the Revell/Monogram site, and there is more than enough variety of the classic Musclecar to keep me happy.

:coolio::thumbsup:

Don

Link to post
Share on other sites
Eurotrash.

(Running away)

kidding :coolio:

Don

LOL,

After looking at some peoples post, Remember I was talking about some cars that can be considered as sports cars.

Even if a car is a sports car like a GT does not mean it cannot be a Muscle car. Two cars that I can think of that some people think of as sports cars yet are Muscle cars, is the 69 corvette L88 and new ZL1. The L88 was put into production since, they needed to have production numbers so they could have their race vehicle fit into category rules, No different then say monte SS production car with the wing nose etc.

Both the L88 "427" and ZL1 "to me", fit the muscle car plate since they have gobs of unusable power in the street trim vehicles.

Other vehicles I can think of that can be subjective in the realm of a muscle machine, is the (1999-2004) Ford Lighting. It's man purpose does not actually fit the pickup truck criteria, yet it is a pickup truck, same could be said about the GMC Syclone and Typhoon. Would they just be performance vehicles? Heck even the use of the word performance depends on what criteria performance is meant to be, perform as a work truck, Off road truck, grocery getter? :thumbsup:

I am guessing some might call a Suzuki Hayabusa a superbike and others might call it a muscle bike, whats the new word these days hyper?

Edited by Wayne S
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok no flame war was intended here. But when someone posts a suggestion about rules or guidelines in good faith and another member picks apart that post nearly line for line, one must expect rebuttal. Seriously, I live in Indianapolis Indiana, discussion of cars, racing, racing league politics, and one series versus another is something of a semi-contact sport around here, racing and the business surrounding it is serious in this town. I'm not saying that makes me especially qualified or anything it's just this is a car/racing oriented community, discussion comes with the territory.

WayneS, sorry not trying to offend you.

When you posted you said " to me"__ __ and "in my opinion", ok, you're entitled to an opinion. But, TO ME this is not a subjective matter of opinion. It is a matter of definition.

I was making serious suggestions, and trying to clarify what were doing, not convalude it with "to me"s and other subjectivity. Specific definitions matter, facts either matter to us or they don't. We have to choose or make it open. Open is fine but the only way the subjectivity of the " to me" enters the picture is under an open " run what ya brung" type of build. I realize this is a model build, its supposed to be fun, so lets just have a model build and if some folks wanna bring their Euro-cars to the party, ok fine. We'll get more participants that way.

There will be plenty of time to debate the definition of what really constitutes a sports car vs a muscle car on the new automotive ARC, but I'm hoping the "to me"s are kept in check.

Edited by Expat Tomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites
Don't forget the >>> Chrysler 300<<<, one of the earliest Muscle Cars ...

Gregg

actually the letter cars are known as the first muscle cars. You might also add in the Dodge D500 & D501 series and maybe a Hudson with Twin H power. Then I notice no mention of Studebakers with "R Series" engines!

I'd think that a muscle car and a pro street car are completely different animals, and this only opens the door for factory race cars.

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
A more comprehensive list including some foreign ones as well.

ModelsUnited StatesMotor Trend identified the following models as "musclecars" in 1965:

1962–1965 Dodge Dart 413/426 Max Wedge/426 Hemi/Plymouth Fury 413/426 Max Wedge/426 Hemi

1964–1965 Ford Thunderbolt 427

1965–1969 Buick Skylark Gran Sport

1965–1970 Dodge Coronet/Plymouth Belvedere 426-S

1965 Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu SS

1965–1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442

Road & Track identified the following models as "musclecars" in 1965:

1964–1965 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans/GTO

1965–1975 Buick Riviera Gran Sport

1965–1969 Buick Skylark Gran Sport

1965–1970 Dodge Coronet/Plymouth Belvedere 426-S

1965 Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu SS

1965–1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442

Car and Driver also created a list of the 10 Best muscle cars for its January 1990 issue. The magazine focused on the engines and included:

1966–1967 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi

1968–1969 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi

1970–1971 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi

1966–1967 Chevy II SS327

1966–1969 Chevrolet Chevelle SS396

1968–1969 Chevy II Nova SS396

1969 Ford Torino Cobra 428

1969 Plymouth Road Runner/Dodge Super Bee 440 Six Pack

1970 Chevrolet Chevelle SS454

1969 Pontiac GTO

1987 Buick Grand National

Other muscle cars include the following:

Full-size muscle models

1962-1970 Buick Wildcat

1965-1974 Buick Riviera GS until 1972, then Riviera GS Stage1 models

1961-1976 Chevrolet Impala SS until '69, then any high HP-engined models

1958-1975 Chevrolet Bel Air

1958-1972 Chevrolet Biscayne

1965-1976 Chevrolet Caprice

1959-1975 Ford Galaxie

1962-1967 Mercury S-55 (1964 and 1965 badged as a Marauder)

1959-1974 Mercury Monterey

1960-1973 Dodge Polara

Mid-size muscle models

1970–1971 AMC Rebel and Matador The Machine[45][46]

1968–1969 Buick Gran Sport

1970–1974 Buick GSX

1965–1973 Chevrolet Chevelle SS

1966–1974 Dodge Charger

1968–1971 Dodge Super Bee

1969 Dodge Charger Daytona[47]

1966–1969 Ford Fairlane GT, GTA, and Cobra

1968–1974 Ford Torino (GT, Cobra, and Talladega)

1966-1972 Mercury Cyclone

1970-1971 Mercury Montego

1968–1971 Oldsmobile 442

1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass "Ram-Rod" 350

1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass W-31

1967–1971 Plymouth GTX

1968–1974 Plymouth Road Runner[47]

1970 Plymouth Superbird

1964–1974 Pontiac GTO

Compact muscle models

1969 AMC SC/Rambler

1971 AMC Hornet SC 360

1963–1974 Chevrolet Nova SS

1968–1976 Dodge Dart GT, GTS, Swinger, and Demon

1970–1976 Plymouth Duster

1964-1969 Ford Falcon

1970-1976 Ford Maverick Grabber

1964-1975 Mercury Comet

Pony car muscle models

1968–1970 AMC AMX

1968-1974 AMC Javelin and AMX

1967-1974 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 & SS

1970–1974 Dodge Challenger

1965-1970 Shelby Mustang GT350 & GT500

1967-1971 Mustang Cobra Jet

1969-1973 Mustang Mach 1

1969-1970 Boss 302 Mustang

1969-1970 Mustang Boss 429

1971 Mustang Boss 351

1969-1970 Mercury Cougar Eliminator

1964–1974 Plymouth Barracuda

1967-1979 Pontiac Firebird & Trans Am

Muscle trucks

1965-1987 Chevrolet El Camino SS

1967-1979 Ford Ranchero

1971-1977 GMC Sprint

1978-1987 GMC Caballero

AustraliaChrysler

VH model

1971-1972 Charger R/T E37 (101 built)

1971-1972 Charger R/T E38 - 280 bhp (210 kW) - 3 Speed Gearbox (Track pack and Big tank were options and a fully blueprinted engine) (316 built)

1972-1973 Charger R/T E48 (2 built)

1972-1973 Charger R/T E49 - 302 bhp (225 kW) - 4 Speed Gearbox (Track pack and Big tank were options and a fully blueprinted engine) (149 built)

1972-1973 Charger S/E E55 - 275 bhp (205 kW) - 727 Torqueflite Auto (340 cubic inch Chrysler LA engine) (124 built)

1969-1971 Valiant Hardtop (318 or 360ci V8s)

VJ model (R/T nomenclature dropped) were:

1973-1974 Charger E48 (169 built)

1973 Charger E49 (4 built)

1973-1974 Charger 770 E55 (212 built)

Ford

1967 XR Falcon GT (289)

1968 XT Falcon GT (302)

1969–1970 XW Falcon GT (351)

1969–1970 XW Falcon/Fairmont GS 302 and 351

1969 XW Falcon GTHO Phase I (351W)

1970 XW Falcon GTHO Phase II (351C)

1970-1971 XY Falcon/Fairmont GS 302 and 351

1970-1971 XY Falcon GT (351)

1971 XY Falcon Phase III GTHO (351)

1972 XA Falcon Phase IV GTHO 4 door (only four made: three prototypes, one production) (351)

1972–1973 XA Falcon GT hardtop coupe/4 Door Sedan (351)

1972–1973 XA Falcon GS Hardtop/Sedan/Ute (302, 351)

1973 XA Falcon Superbird (302)

1973–1976 XB Falcon GT hardtop coupe/4 Door Sedan (351)

1973–1976 XB Falcon/Fairmont GS Hardtop/Sedan/Ute (302, 351)

1974–1975 XB Falcon John Goss Special (302)

1976-1979 XC Fairmont GXL (302C or 351C as the desirable GT Power-pack Option)

1978 XC Falcon Cobra 5.8, Bathurst Homologation

1979 XD Fairmont Ghia ESP (302C, 351C)

1982-84 XE Fairmont Ghia ESP (302C, 351C)

Holden

1968–1969 HK Monaro GTS (327)

1969–1970 HT Monaro GTS (350)

1970–1971 HG Monaro GTS (350)

1971–1974 HQ Monaro GTS (350)

1974–1976 HJ Monaro GTS (308)

1970–1971 LC Torana GTR XU-1 (186)

1972–1973 LJ Torana GTR XU-1 (202)

1974–1976 LH Torana SL/R 5000 (308)

1974 LH Torana SL/R 5000 L34 (308)

1976–1978 LX Torana SL/R 5000 (308)

1976–1978 LX Torana SS (308)

1977 LX Torana SL/R 5000 A9X (308)

1977 LX Torana SS A9X (308)

Leyland

P76 "Force Seven". This was a coupe version of the Leyland P76, and the company's answer to the Holden Monaro GTS, Ford Falcon GT and Chrysler Valiant Charger. The company ran into financial difficulties and ceased Australian production before the 3 door Force Seven could be released. The eight completed examples were sold at auction.

BrazilChevrolet

1971-1975 1st generation Opala SS with engine 250 I6

1975-1979 2nd generation Opala SS with engine 250-S I6

1979-1980 3rd generation Opala SS with engine 250-S I6

1976-1979 1st generation Caravan SS

1980 2nd generation Caravan SS

Ford

1971-1975 1st generation Maverick GT 302 V8

1975-1979 2nd generation Maverick GT 302 V8

1966-1971 Galaxie 500 289 V8

1971-1980 LTD Landau 302 V8

1980-1983 Landau 302 V8

Dodge

1969-1975 Dart 318 V8

1971-1979 1st generation Charger R/T 318 V8 (1969 Dart modified sold under the name of Charger)

1980 2nd generation Charger R/T 318 V8 (1976 Dart modified sold under the name of Charger)

Puma

1975-1979 GTB S1

1980-1988 GTB S2

1988-1994 AMV

Santa-Matilde

1979-1988 SM4.1

some small errors in the list:

* all Plymouth & Dodge muscle cars prior to 1966 were wedge powered, and the street hemi wasn't detuned till the 1966 model run. But if you were brave and wanted something very unique you could build a 1965 Dodge Cornet with the low compression race hemi (rumor has it that they built around twenty). This is probably still the fastest muscle car ever built (mid tens thru the mufflers). With the exception of the street hemi; virtually all race hemis were shipped in two door sedan bodies unless you goto the Dart & Cuda in 1968. BUT there was a very small handfull of Plymouths sold in the two door hard top body (maybe eight or ten)

* the 427 Thunderbolt was never a DOT certifiable car, and thus you could not plate it. There was no 1965 Thunderbolt!

* There was a cataloged option for a 327 / 350hp engine in the 1965, but none were shipped. The 350hp engine was on shipped in 1966.

The rest for 1967 were smog motors

* there was a tripower ram air option on the 1966, 442. Kinda rare, but I've seen them. All were in the two door sedan F85 body

* The Olds were called W30 and W31 around 60 or 1970

gary

Edited by ChesshireCat
Link to post
Share on other sites
LOL,

After looking at some peoples post, Remember I was talking about some cars that can be considered as sports cars.

Even if a car is a sports car like a GT does not mean it cannot be a Muscle car. Two cars that I can think of that some people think of as sports cars yet are Muscle cars, is the 69 corvette L88 and new ZL1. The L88 was put into production since, they needed to have production numbers so they could have their race vehicle fit into category rules, No different then say monte SS production car with the wing nose etc.

Both the L88 "427" and ZL1 "to me", fit the muscle car plate since they have gobs of unusable power in the street trim vehicles.

Other vehicles I can think of that can be subjective in the realm of a muscle machine, is the (1999-2004) Ford Lighting. It's man purpose does not actually fit the pickup truck criteria, yet it is a pickup truck, same could be said about the GMC Syclone and Typhoon. Would they just be performance vehicles? Heck even the use of the word performance depends on what criteria performance is meant to be, perform as a work truck, Off road truck, grocery getter? :wacko:

I am guessing some might call a Suzuki Hayabusa a superbike and others might call it a muscle bike, whats the new word these days hyper?

they only built three L88 Corvettes, so you can't count it as a production run without counting the 1964 race hemi Plymouth and the 1965 low compression race hemi cars. The ZL-1 fits the bill.

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
they only built three L88 Corvettes, so you can't count it as a production run without counting the 1964 race hemi Plymouth and the 1965 low compression race hemi cars. The ZL-1 fits the bill.

gary

They made just over 100 69 L88 Corvettes.

Edit: This site has a few pictures. If anyone is interested in the L88 http://www.thel88corvette.com/

* the 427 Thunderbolt was never a DOT certifiable car, and thus you could not plate it.

gary

They had a Vin and was sold with a bill of sale, you could register it, Inspection if there was any needed is another story, yet even today that is easy to get around.

I get what you are saying tho, they were purpose built race cars not meant for any of them to end up on public roads.

My uncle had one back then that he use to street race with.

Edited by Wayne S
Link to post
Share on other sites

Still keeping this idea alive. I put in a proposal to Steve F. but have not heard anything back from him. As for th rules,

I'm still leaning towards mostly American muscle. I want to put European muscle cars in here, too. But, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of them. And I can't really think of any. As for the defenition of a muscle car, interpret what you want with it. My defenition of it is a 2/4 door hard top/convertible with a V-8. Either stock, Hemi, whatever it may be.

Mustangs, GTO's, Challengers, Chargers, GTX's, Superbee's, Camaros, ect.

RYAN.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes!! Still very interested. Went to the model shop last weekend, came home with

IMG_0500.jpg

They have lots of stuff there and some resin. Lost of older MoPars which i like, hopefully i can do 2-3 builds. I have to say, car kits have come a long way since the last time i built one. Much more detailed and options available. One thing i may struggle with is glossy finishes. Looking forward to the build.

Don

Link to post
Share on other sites
They made just over 100 69 L88 Corvettes.

Edit: This site has a few pictures. If anyone is interested in the L88 http://www.thel88corvette.com/

They had a Vin and was sold with a bill of sale, you could register it, Inspection if there was any needed is another story, yet even today that is easy to get around.

I get what you are saying tho, they were purpose built race cars not meant for any of them to end up on public roads.

My uncle had one back then that he use to street race with.

Cheverolet has admitted they only shipped three assembled L88 Corvettes. And there was a twin supercharged Corvette that they built about a dozen of ( I don't know of a single one that has survived) in 1969, and prior to that they shipped another dozen or so as an uncataloged late year option. I've seen one of those painted in a tan color. G.M. says that virtually every L88 Corvette was dealer assembled from parts out of the warehouse. To compound this there was actually two different L88 versions (differences were in the heads and cams). Both versions made about 15 less horse power than the generic 425hp. due the problems with the cylinder heads. The reason most folks think there was a production run of L88 Corvettes is because NHRA finally relented and let a small hand full of folks race them, but even NHRA behind closed doors couldn't even document the three Chevy claimed they shipped. The folks wanting to race them were sure they had a real winner, and ended up running 3/4 second off the pace, so they created a hemi only class to keep everybody happy (last I heard the record is 8.22 @ 162mph). By the way, Motion built more L88 cars than Chevy did!

If you bought a Thunderbolt of even a 68 hemi cuda there was a note written right on the title stating that the car was not leagle for street use. I've seen several of these titles over the years, and that's one way you spot a real one from a clone. Interestingly they built more 427 Comets in 1965 that Chevy built L88 Corvettes in 1969. There were also more Motion L88 Cameros built than all the L88 Corvettes combined. There were a couple 1965 Ford fairlanes built like a Thunderbolt, but with the single overhead cam 427 engines in them. The Comet was faster! There were also a small handfull of Fairlanes built with the 289 Cobra engine that had the Weber carbs. At least one of these cars has survived.

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
Cheverolet has admitted they only shipped three assembled L88 Corvettes. And there was a twin supercharged Corvette that they built about a dozen of ( I don't know of a single one that has survived) in 1969, and prior to that they shipped another dozen or so as an uncataloged late year option. I've seen one of those painted in a tan color. G.M. says that virtually every L88 Corvette was dealer assembled from parts out of the warehouse. To compound this there was actually two different L88 versions (differences were in the heads and cams). Both versions made about 15 less horse power than the generic 425hp. due the problems with the cylinder heads. The reason most folks think there was a production run of L88 Corvettes is because NHRA finally relented and let a small hand full of folks race them, but even NHRA behind closed doors couldn't even document the three Chevy claimed they shipped. The folks wanting to race them were sure they had a real winner, and ended up running 3/4 second off the pace, so they created a hemi only class to keep everybody happy (last I heard the record is 8.22 @ 162mph). By the way, Motion built more L88 cars than Chevy did!

If you bought a Thunderbolt of even a 68 hemi cuda there was a note written right on the title stating that the car was not leagle for street use. I've seen several of these titles over the years, and that's one way you spot a real one from a clone. Interestingly they built more 427 Comets in 1965 that Chevy built L88 Corvettes in 1969. There were also more Motion L88 Cameros built than all the L88 Corvettes combined. There were a couple 1965 Ford fairlanes built like a Thunderbolt, but with the single overhead cam 427 engines in them. The Comet was faster! There were also a small handfull of Fairlanes built with the 289 Cobra engine that had the Weber carbs. At least one of these cars has survived.

gary

Do not know what to tell yah bud, been looking for another Corvette with the 3 figures you speak of. Only thing that comes to mind is the ZL1 which the figure would be two produced. There was just above 100 69 L88 Corvettes produced, they were RPO cars, The final factory assembly would be on the Vin and the Engine's vin would match the production number of the vehicle along with the order sheet from the factory.

They were never meant to be drag cars, they were made for sports car racing, which means the heads and cam really would not work good in the power range for drag racing. Only thing I can think of with the heads deal with the L88 is the half year head change.

If someone wanted to go drag racing with the big boys, they would buy one of Yenko's cars or one of Gibb's Camaro's that met the production figures needed in the rules.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...