Top US Military Conspiracies

[Berkut]

SR-71's always flew along the border of Soviet Union, sometimes very close. There are true stories of MiG-31 pilots that tracked, and basically achieved almost lock on (they could if they turned it on), making SR-71 pilots a bit nervous and suddenly deciding to fly a bit furtherer from the border. :)

Regarding KAL007, i find it odd that they havent found any bodies, or suitcases etc.

[Murph]

As to the Gulf of Tonkin incident we know that is was a fabrication by the US govt.

Incorrect. I would check here. Unfortunately the article is now restricted to members only; however, the comments on the article are still visible and are from crew members of the ship describing the action; they are very adamant the event was no fabrication. Additionally, check here for now declassified documents and messages describing the incident and the fact that North Vietnamese and U.S. ships did fire on each other in early August of 1964. Finally there is this article click here which dissects many of the claims about the incident and which includes this paragraph;

Tasked with gathering electronic intelligence in an operation designated the DESOTO Patrol, USS Maddox commenced steaming off the coast of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam on July 31, 1964 with special intercept equipment and technicians aboard. The patrol was under the tactical command of Captain John J. Herrick, USN, Commander of Destroyer Division 192. On the afternoon of 2 August Maddox was attacked in the Tonkin Gulf by a squadron of North Vietnamese patrol torpedo boats. Supported by aircraft from the carrier USS Ticonderoga, Maddox repelled the attack without sustaining casualties and suffered only inconsequential material damage. The three attacking PT boats were seriously damaged and several of their crew were either killed or wounded in the action.

The article is written by a radar operator on the U.S.S. Turner Joy during the incident and is well worth reading, despite being long.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Murph

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

Incorrect. I would check here. Unfortunately the article is now restricted to members only; however, the comments on the article are still visible and are from crew members of the ship describing the action; they are very adamant the event was no fabrication. Additionally, check here for now declassified documents and messages describing the incident and the fact that North Vietnamese and U.S. ships did fire on each other in early August of 1964. Finally there is this article click here which dissects many of the claims about the incident and which includes this paragraph;

The article is written by a radar operator on the U.S.S. Turner Joy during the incident and is well worth reading, despite being long.

You can choose to believe that but in recent years more info including LBJ info has been released that shows the incident was built mostly on a fabrication. Nobody says an incident of some sort did not take place but it was not the incident as sold back then by LBJ and the Pentagon. It had to be amplified to get public and Congressional support for DIRECT US involvement in the war. The corrupt and failing South Vietnamese govt. at the time was near begging the US to get into the fray at the time. An incident needed to be either contrived and/or magnified to allow this US involvement. This incident was the impetus to bring the US full force into that most stupid and wasteful of conflicts.

I mean think about it in reality a PT boat incident drew over time 500,000+ US troops into a war that had no real winning solution. A war that at one time had the US military run out of conventional bombs in dropping. The US had to buy tonnes of bombs back at highly inflated prices from West Germany as result until manufacturers could replenish US stockpiles. A war that saw Vietnam get more bomb tonnage dropped on it than all other conflicts in human history combined. A DAMN PT BOAT incident !!

Edited September 9, 2011 by Les / Creative Edge Photo

[Vladimir Putin!]

Conspiracy by US is very easy to be discussed as they do it so frequently. Even about there most recent incidences of military "accidents" they are contradicting themselves and not forthcoming.

China Shoots Down F-22 Over Alaska

Independent minds must think beyond state directed media responses and coverups to see between the lines of contradictory evidence and wonder what US is really up to.

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

I do have a slight clue about events in Vietnam, and probably more than you'd ever think

gary

I never said you did not. I just said you should not make claims against me as such.

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

Conspiracy by US is very easy to be discussed as they do it so frequently. Even about there most recent incidences of military "accidents" they are contradicting themselves and not forthcoming.

China Shoots Down F-22 Over Alaska

Independent minds must think beyond state directed media responses and coverups to see between the lines of contradictory evidence and wonder what US is really up to.

The US has no operating laser weapon as such other than silly, wasteful 747 type test beds and the Chinese do not either. The amount of money and engineering the US has still have not nor will it likely ever be able to produce an effective laser based to be used in atmospheric conditions weapon. In space outside an atmosphere SURE maybe one day. Does anyone think the Chinese have or will before the US does? Nice fairy tale story though.

[Murph]

You can choose to believe that...

This is one of the primary reasons I generally avoid discussions about conspiracies, so many people who buy them treat them like a religious belief. Those articles I cited list primary documents and witnesses, there is no doubt about any of them. But I'm the one "believing" something. You're the one willing to not only ignore primary sources, but to also start moving goalposts and changing your story. It's no longer "As to the Gulf of Tonkin incident we know that is was a fabrication by the US govt." It's now "built mostly on a fabrication."

... but in recent years more info including LBJ info has been released that shows the incident was built mostly on a fabrication.

There were two reported incidents, one of them actually did happen (2 August), while the other (4 August) was thought to have happened by the participants, while the decision makers were unsure what happened. For those doing the math, that's 50%, not "mostly."

It had to be amplified to get public and Congressional support for DIRECT US involvement in the war.

There already were 16,000 military personnel in Vietnam, fighting and dying, before the Tonkin Gulf Incident. The incident merely gave Johnson increased scope.

I mean think about it in reality a PT boat incident drew over time 500,000+ US troops... A DAMN PT BOAT incident !!

A gross simplification of the many factors that drew the U.S. into Vietnam, besides which it contradicts what you said previously. If the reason the U.S. got into the war was a PT boat incident, then certainly they could have come up with another one if that didn't occur. Then, of course, one would have to ask why did the Kennedy and Johnson Administrations want to get involved; obviously the reasons were many and varied as they are any time the many strong willed, genrally intelligent, inflated ego leaders of a country elect to go to war.

Regards,

Murph

[11bee]

Conspiracy by US is very easy to be discussed as they do it so frequently. Even about there most recent incidences of military "accidents" they are contradicting themselves and not forthcoming.

China Shoots Down F-22 Over Alaska

Independent minds must think beyond state directed media responses and coverups to see between the lines of contradictory evidence and wonder what US is really up to.

Vlad,

You rock... I had heard the rumors about that F-22 being shot down by the Chinese (while on a routine training mission loaded with a B83 nuke), I'm glad to see that this coverup is finally exposed and the mainstream press is picking up this story.

Looking forward to your next shirtless photoshoot, keep working those abs!

John

[TaiidanTomcat]

Regarding KAL007, i find it odd that they havent found any bodies, or suitcases etc.

Yeah but they also didn't find any spy equipment either. And one side had hundreds of families grieving... with at least a picture of a victim. the Russians had what? Not a single photo or shred of evidence that points to a spy plane?

The real trick was finding 269 disposable volunteers that would be missed to keep the story consistent.

Or

The real trick was hiring and creating 269 families, pretending not to be a part of the conspiracy for decades before the incident and then continuing to not break character after decades of grief as well. luckily no tell all book... yet. You would think it would be difficult to manage 269 fake families from all over the globe for years, but these decades long international conspiracies are actually pretty easy.

[Berkut]

Whoa, such an interesting reaction. I just said that i found it odd, that is it. I don't believe in the spy theories etc (and they make absolutely no sense).

[Trigger]

Human remains (body parts, tissue and partial torsos) were found on the north shore of a Japanese island in the days following the shoot down of KAL 007, as were personal items recovered by Soviet divers from the impact site that were confirmed by family members to have belonged to passengers.

[Berkut]

Human remains (body parts, tissue and partial torsos) were found on the north shore of a Japanese island in the days following the shoot down of KAL 007, as were personal items recovered by Soviet divers from the impact site that were confirmed by family members to have belonged to passengers.

I believe human parts (very few) were found in the diving sessions that was done much later, early 90's.

Here is another conspiracy theory, caused a bit of a steer last year. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UVB-76

[Vladimir Putin!]

The US has no operating laser weapon as such other than silly, wasteful 747 type test beds and the Chinese do not either. The amount of money and engineering the US has still have not nor will it likely ever be able to produce an effective laser based to be used in atmospheric conditions weapon. In space outside an atmosphere SURE maybe one day. Does anyone think the Chinese have or will before the US does? Nice fairy tale story though.

It is your choose to believe or not to believe. Even discounting the using of laser weapons the US has provided too many inconsistencies for the official explanations to not have too much unexplained. I think it is you choose to not believe but evidently more is going on than meets the eye.

[11bee]

Yeah but they also didn't find any spy equipment either. And one side had hundreds of families grieving... with at least a picture of a victim. the Russians had what? Not a single photo or shred of evidence that points to a spy plane?

The real trick was finding 269 disposable volunteers that would be missed to keep the story consistent.

Or

The real trick was hiring and creating 269 families, pretending not to be a part of the conspiracy for decades before the incident and then continuing to not break character after decades of grief as well. luckily no tell all book... yet. You would think it would be difficult to manage 269 fake families from all over the globe for years, but these decades long international conspiracies are actually pretty easy.

Just to illustrate how far governments can take stuff like this - When the USS Vincennes had a really bad day and shot down that Iran Air A300 with 290 civilians aboard, I remember reading a quote the next day from an "unnamed" pentagon source suggesting that the Airbus was actually on a suicide mission and was diving to crash into the Aegis cruiser (actually it was climbing out on it's planned course) and the shoot down was legitimate. All of the floating bodies? Easy, the ever crafty Iranians may have packed the plane with corpses from a morgue. Crazy paranoia talk isn't just the domain of the internet conspiracy crowd, our own government can occasionally score some big points in this area as well.

Edited September 9, 2011 by 11bee

[Dndieje]

Here's nice one:

http://defensetech.org/2011/09/09/north-korea-jammed-a-u-s-spy-planes-gps/

I love conspiracy theories.

If you know the truth and tell people you are obviously part of the conspiracy so nobody believes you.

If you believe in a conspiracy you will never believe anyone who does not believe in the conspiracy because they are obviously all part of it.

Great if you want to write a book, no need to prove anything !

[Guest Hoban Washburne]

Just to illustrate how far governments can take stuff like this - When the USS Vincennes had a really bad day and shot down that Iran Air A300 with 290 civilians aboard, I remember reading a quote the next day from an "unnamed" pentagon source suggesting that the Airbus was actually on a suicide mission and was diving to crash into the Aegis cruiser (actually it was climbing out on it's planned course) and the shoot down was legitimate. All of the floating bodies? Easy, the ever crafty Iranians may have packed the plane with corpses from a morgue. Crazy paranoia talk isn't just the domain of the internet conspiracy crowd, our own government can occasionally score some big points in this area as well.

Mate, why would Iran have to use a mosque morgue (sorry for the mis-speak)? We're talking about a country which cares so bloody little for its own peoples it makes crystal sense they'd send such an airliner on a suicide run. In that fashion, no matter the Yanks did, they'd lose. If they shoot, they're internationally vilified for shooting a civilian airliner. If the don't shoot, they get slammed into by a civilian airliner in a horrific "accident" in which hundreds die but a US warship is sunk. Mate, I actually think this one has a morbid logic to it. I'd not heard this theory before, but it makes sense to me.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Hoban Washburne

[RandomCatFacts]

In 1879, in Belgium 37 cats were used to deliver mail to villages, however they found that the cats were not disciplined enough to do this.

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

This is one of the primary reasons I generally avoid discussions about conspiracies, so many people who buy them treat them like a religious belief. Those articles I cited list primary documents and witnesses, there is no doubt about any of them. But I'm the one "believing" something. You're the one willing to not only ignore primary sources, but to also start moving goalposts and changing your story. It's no longer "As to the Gulf of Tonkin incident we know that is was a fabrication by the US govt." It's now "built mostly on a fabrication."

There were two reported incidents, one of them actually did happen (2 August), while the other (4 August) was thought to have happened by the participants, while the decision makers were unsure what happened. For those doing the math, that's 50%, not "mostly."

There already were 16,000 military personnel in Vietnam, fighting and dying, before the Tonkin Gulf Incident. The incident merely gave Johnson increased scope.

A gross simplification of the many factors that drew the U.S. into Vietnam, besides which it contradicts what you said previously. If the reason the U.S. got into the war was a PT boat incident, then certainly they could have come up with another one if that didn't occur. Then, of course, one would have to ask why did the Kennedy and Johnson Administrations want to get involved; obviously the reasons were many and varied as they are any time the many strong willed, genrally intelligent, inflated ego leaders of a country elect to go to war.

Regards,

Murph

Murph, first I'm not trying to disrespect you and I admire greatly your service to your country and as a valued contributor to this fine forum. But over the years more and more has come about the Gulf of Tonkin and it was not the US being Mr. Innocent in it.

I guess I should have been more clear though but yes, the Gulf of Tonkin was more a fabrication by design to create a need for direct US involvement in Nam. Yes, the US was more or less already indirectly involved with "advisors" so they said, but it took making an incident into a big Ta Da to curry public and Congressional favour. Time has revealed that this was the incident to propel US involvement as I noted.

The PT boat incident was the trigger to allow the US to get directly involved first with bombing and then soon after with the arrival of US Marines to quote first protect US assets in the South. From there it escalated as history shows us.

I'm not saying the US may not have gone ape wild on Nam had Tonkin not happened but the fact is that the US govt. and Pentagon helped to create an atmosphere to allow engagement with North's PT boats and thus set the wheels in motion. The US wanted an encounter with the North it's that simple. It green lighted all that then happened. This is the way it was, info supports this but of course you or any other are free to accept or not this info.

As I said the US and especially the South Vietnamese govts were ITCHING to get direct US involvement but at the time they needed a tool to propel this. Gulf of Tonkin was that by design. History backs it up.

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

It is your choose to believe or not to believe. Even discounting the using of laser weapons the US has provided too many inconsistencies for the official explanations to not have too much unexplained. I think it is you choose to not believe but evidently more is going on than meets the eye.

I'd sooner believe (long shot at that) a lucky Chinese missile shot bringing an F-22 down over some airy fairy laser weapon. Obviously the Chinese had sharks with laser attached to their heads... That or Sea Bass. :lol:

[Kei Lau]

- During the Balkans War, the US purposely bombed the Chinese embassy with a B-2 because the site was being used to target NATO aircraft (A long shot but there is some circumstantial evidence that the Chinese were assisting the Serbs with targeting of US stealth assets. I do find it incredulous that the US could have mistaken this building for something else)

The B-2 raid was the only CIA organized raid during the war. I thought that the intention was never in question. The only unanswered question was the real target. One of the most widely circulated theory was that the Chinese collected parts from the F-117 wreckage and CIA destroyed what they collected. This theory re-surfaced this year when the Chinese unveiled the J-20.

[johnny_7713]

Mate, why would Iran have to use a mosque morgue (sorry for the mis-speak)? We're talking about a country which cares so bloody little for its own peoples it makes crystal sense they'd send such an airliner on a suicide run. In that fashion, no matter the Yanks did, they'd lose. If they shoot, they're internationally vilified for shooting a civilian airliner. If the don't shoot, they get slammed into by a civilian airliner in a horrific "accident" in which hundreds die but a US warship is sunk. Mate, I actually think this one has a morbid logic to it. I'd not heard this theory before, but it makes sense to me.

Actually it makes no sense, crystal or otherwise. An airliner crashing into a warship by accident would be so utterly unbelievable as to immediately make it an act of war. There are basically several possible outcomes: 1. Plane hits ship (and even fighter planes had trouble with hitting moving ships during WWII), US calls it act of war and destroys Iran (or at least the government) gain for Iran: zero. 2. Plane hits ship, US accepts 'freak accident' theory or otherwise ignores incident, gain for Iran: zero, since simply destroying one ship when you are not actually at war with anyone does not accomplish any gain, unless you can leverage it for propaganda or as a threat, which would involve admitting it's not an accident. 3. Plane is shot down by US, US releases radar tapes proving plane was on suicide course, then as 1 or 2, gain for Iran: zero. 4. Plane misses ship, US releases radar tapes proving plane was on suicide course, then as above.

Real life does not work like a video game, you don't get points for simply blowing up an enemy's stuff; acts of war should accomplish an actual goal.

[Alvis 3.1]

Avro Arrow. Those two words are enough to incite violent reactions across Canada amongst airplane fans. It was cancelled by the Americans, it was cancelled because we had too many Red spies here, it couldn't work as advertised, it was the best plane ever designed, it was cancelled because it could intercept U2s....I've even seen stuff that links it with supernatural forces. And then there's the "one that got away". I knew one of the Avro Canada test pilots, and every time there was a program on TV about the Arrow, he'd get mail and phone calls from people demanding he reveal where to missing one was. He always told them "Yes, it left the base...in dumpsters!"

Alvis 3.1

[zerosystem]

I'd sooner believe (long shot at that) a lucky Chinese missile shot bringing an F-22 down over some airy fairy laser weapon. Obviously the Chinese had sharks with laser attached to their heads... That or Sea Bass. :lol:

fricken lazers...its the fricken that is the advanced factor

[TaiidanTomcat]

Just to illustrate how far governments can take stuff like this - When the USS Vincennes had a really bad day and shot down that Iran Air A300 with 290 civilians aboard, I remember reading a quote the next day from an "unnamed" pentagon source suggesting that the Airbus was actually on a suicide mission and was diving to crash into the Aegis cruiser (actually it was climbing out on it's planned course) and the shoot down was legitimate. All of the floating bodies? Easy, the ever crafty Iranians may have packed the plane with corpses from a morgue. Crazy paranoia talk isn't just the domain of the internet conspiracy crowd, our own government can occasionally score some big points in this area as well.

"How far governments can take stuff"? Since when is a "unnamed" source from the pentagon, considered an official Representative of the US government? The guy who makes the general's coffee, and wants to feel cool, is suddenly a credible source for official US policy? one man is not the government. The key phrase there is "the next day" and "unnamed" some idiot without all the facts started playing the guessing game. He believed in his pet theory so much he didn't even attach his name to it. IT was theory Remember all the "details" of the Bin laden raid that turned out to be utter garbage based on false initial reports? You would almost think that statements like that are to simply cast doubt on a massive mistake. The US also paid a hefty sum to the families in Iran (though never admitted guilt.) The Soviet Union stuck to its story to the end, only turning over evidence and admitting "mistaken identity" after the fall of the USSR.

Edited September 10, 2011 by TaiidanTomcat

[Guest Hoban Washburne]

Actually it makes no sense, crystal or otherwise. An airliner crashing into a warship by accident would be so utterly unbelievable as to immediately make it an act of war. There are basically several possible outcomes: 1. Plane hits ship (and even fighter planes had trouble with hitting moving ships during WWII), US calls it act of war and destroys Iran (or at least the government) gain for Iran: zero. 2. Plane hits ship, US accepts 'freak accident' theory or otherwise ignores incident, gain for Iran: zero, since simply destroying one ship when you are not actually at war with anyone does not accomplish any gain, unless you can leverage it for propaganda or as a threat, which would involve admitting it's not an accident. 3. Plane is shot down by US, US releases radar tapes proving plane was on suicide course, then as 1 or 2, gain for Iran: zero. 4. Plane misses ship, US releases radar tapes proving plane was on suicide course, then as above.

Real life does not work like a video game, you don't get points for simply blowing up an enemy's stuff; acts of war should accomplish an actual goal.

Mate, I think you undervalue propaganda in a long term smear campaign such as Iran has run against the yanks for years. Even if the US releases radar tapes proving the plane was on a suicide course, Iran claims fabrication...US looks like bad guy trying to make Muslim world look bad, again. If plane misses ship, crashes into water, Iran claims US shot down plane and denials are part of elaborate Imperialist American cover up...US looks like bad guy trying to make Muslim world look bad, again. If plane hits ship, US accepts 'freak accident' theory or otherwise ignores incident, Iran claims Imperialist American warship radar screwed up airliner navigation causing the accident, US did not properly aid post-impact survivors causing the death of Muslims and Iran demands compensation for the families of those killed in the plane crash, if denied, US looks like bad guy trying to make Muslim world look bad, again. If plane hits ship and US calls it an act of war and attacks Iran, Iran goes to UN, incenses entire Muslim world with outrage for US over-reaction to a mere accident and decries US as war criminals...US looks like bad guy trying to make Muslim world look bad, again.

See how this cannot be won by the yanks in any way shape or form? And we all know the US is not about to "destroy" Iran, that's not how the Americans fight wars. They might go for surgical, "regime change," in which case Iran cries "Imperialists" and the Americans look bad to the Muslim world. The Americans might try drone strikes in Iran to take out the ayatollahs and the leadership, Iran cries "Imperialists...illegal assassinations!" and the Americans look bad to the Muslim world. Simply put, in the scenario described above, there is no way the Americans can "win" the propaganda war except by allowing the airliner to slam into their ship and take the first hit. And even then, under the "accident" guise they cannot react except at real peril to themselves. It's essentially a no win situation. Balled if they do, balled if they don't.

Far from video game, it's a quite complex bit of long term manipulation of public opinion in the Muslim world, a game the US has been losing for decades.