Air Force F110-A Spectre & F4-C Phantom ; What kit? What color?

[David Rapasi]

I am researching what I thought was going to be a simple project building a pair of 1/48 Air Force F110-A Spectres and an early F4-C Phantom.

What is the best kit for a F110-A, and the F4 B or C?

What changes, if any, need to be made to these kits to get a good representation of a F110-A or F4-C?

Are there any decals available for the F110-A or early F4-C?

What color was the F110-A?

What color was the F4-C?

I already searched Google, Wikipedia, Squadron, and Great Model.

Any information would be appreciated.

Dave

[Ben Brown]

IIRC, the F-110As were just F-4Bs borrowed from the Navy. The only game in town on 1/48 is the old Hasegawa kit, with raised panel lines. I think they may have even released it at one time with F-110A decals. Royale Resin has an F-4B conversion for the Hasegawa F-4J kit, which has scribed panel lines.

For the F-4C, there's also the old Hasegawa F-4C/D and Monogram F-4C/D, both of which have raised panel lines. The Monogram kit is harder to build and has little aftermarket support, but is supposed to be more accurate. You could also convert a Hasegawa F-4J by changing the cockpit, afterburner nozzles, nose gear door, stabs, etc. I think all of the F-4C/D kits come with Martin Baker Mk.7 seats, and you'd need to swap these with MB Mk.5s. True Details sells some, and I think there are others available, too.

Cutting Edge had some decals for the early F-4C, but they're hard to find, and expensive when you do find them. I don't know of any aftermarket decals for the F-110.

Both jets would have standard Navy Light Gull Grey over White. Early F-4Cs had the inflight refueilng door painted Day-Glo orange.

I'm not sure if any of the Hasegawa kits are in production, but you could find them on eBay or the forums. The Monogram kit is currently available in 2 different boxings, under the Revell label.

Ben

Edited March 12, 2012 by Ben Brown

[KursadA]

I don't know of any aftermarket decals for the F-110

I regularly get requests about the F-110A. What would be a good starting point as a reference?

[swedeinsiam]

Here's the F-110A Hasegawa released back in 2004.

[bugs3144]

If I remember correctly, the designation F110 was originally used to continue the century series fighters. Then along came Robert McNamera who wanted all service branches to use same aircraft. So the F110 became the F4. I remember Aurora issued a kit in the early mid 60's of the AirForce F110. Colors as stated above were light gull grey over white with white control surfaces. The first F4's we received at Eglin AFB in late 65 were this color scheme.

Frank

ATL

[Andre]

I am researching what I thought was going to be a simple project building a pair of 1/48 Air Force F110-A Spectres and an

What color was the F110-A?

What color was the F4-C?

The F-4B's relabeled as F-110A, like Ben pointed out, remained in their Naval scheme of FS16440 Light Gull Gray over White. Early F-4C's were delivered in this scheme as well.

Later the SEA scheme of FS30219/FS34079/FS34102 topside over FS36622 was introduced - some aircraft repainted in the field retained their White undersides for a while. Late in their life the Wraparound SEA was introduced, which replaced the FS36622 with the topside colors. Euro 1 replaced the FS30219 with FS36118 FS36081 (thanks, Tony Stark!). The Hill Gray scheme consisted of FS36270 and FS36118, initially with FS36375 undersides but later in twotone wraparound.

ADC birds flew in FS16473 as well.

HTH,

Andre

Edited March 13, 2012 by Andre

[majortomski]

The USAF never bought or flew an "F-110". But it is the reason we have the unified aircraft designation system. Two congressmen were aguing on the floor that their services' proposed fighter was the better aircraft the FH-4 for the USN and the F-110 for the USAF. Then some poor aid put up a slide showing the two aircraft side by side, and even the poor congresmen could understand they were each arguing in favor of the same plane.

I know a pilot that flew the USN F-4Bs in USAF markings while awaiting the first F-4Cs. He said they were always F-4s.

[Rex]

the USAF DID have the F-110, as stated above,,,,but, it was in Flat, not Gloss,,,,the Navy never had an FH-4

pics of the F-110 are easy to come by,,,,,,and in defense of someone that flew them, yes, when he saw them, they might have already been F-4C,,,,,,just like the guy that remembers only seeing white undersides on Nam era birds,,,he might only have been in Nam during the Phantom's earliest days, who knows

what might be hard to come by, would be enough photos of different serial numbered aircraft to make 2 -110s to go with an active C,,,they didn't stay -110's very long, and of course, because of timing, didn't deploy

[dmk0210]

Aeromaster made the "Early Phantoms in Combat Pt1" That had the F-4C in the early gray scheme:

http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/decals/aero/am48763.htm

[Rex]

David, here is a way to sort the pics you find of Flat Light Gull Gray over Gloss White Phantoms

49405 and 49406 were the two F-110A, and are in that link posted above, if you look at the "bagged parts link" instead of the decal instrucitons box,,,,those were the two F-4B borrowed for 120 days, starting in January 1962 at McDill AFB, and then kept by the AF when they borrowed an additional 27, all 29 being designated F-4C by the AF in September 1962, when the new system came down from DoD to unify designations

that second batch of 27 carried tail numbers of 12168 to 12196 and buzz numbers beginning with FJ

the third batch of Gray USAF F-4 were real F-4C, you can spot those by the tail numbers 37407 and up

when sufficient real F-4C were built and delivered, the F-4B were returned to the Navy, and only the real Cs were sent to Vietnam by the USAF

all three sets of serial numbers let you use USN style innerwing, outerwing and centerline pylons,,,to the point where you need to be sure to use Navy style outerwing pylons if you mount MERs and weapons out there,,,,,and you also have the option of the shorter, fatter tanks that remove from the pylons (you also have the option of Navy Pylons out there, with no tank or weapons adapter, that practice continued right into the 70's, with any unit that got stuck with the older tanks)

the one thing I don't know about the pylons is the "invented date" for the late "normal" USAF pylons for all three places,,,and I also don't know if they would have appeared at the same time, or staggered out,,,,,,all I do know is that the earliest outer pylon could still be seen, even in Nam when the Gray jets got their camo

just keep in mind that finding a photo of Phantom number XYZ is not how that bird looked all of its life, or how it was configured,,,,a lot of things unbolted and could be changed or replaced on them,,,,pylons, nose radomes, tail tips, tank types, etc

[David Rapasi]

Thanks to all for the info.

I think I will go with backdating the F4 J kit and homemade decals.

I also found some other ideas for the color of these aircraft.

These are the specified colors I found from different sources for the F110-A, and F4-C, overall gloss light gray, light gray top and white bottom, Navy Gray, Air Force Gray, F.S. 16440, 16473, 36440.

I always thought they were painted light gull gray over gloss white.

Dave

[bugs3144]

The 2 we had at Eglin in late '65 were light gull grey over white. They were assigned to the 3201ABW for testing and evaluation.

Frank

ATL

[BMH]

Thanks to all for the info.

I think I will go with backdating the F4 J kit and homemade decals.

I also found some other ideas for the color of these aircraft.

These are the specified colors I found from different sources for the F110-A, and F4-C, overall gloss light gray, light gray top and white bottom, Navy Gray, Air Force Gray, F.S. 16440, 16473, 36440.

I always thought they were painted light gull gray over gloss white.

Dave

Dave, you might want to go with an F-4B rather than an F-4J kit, because the B has the thinner wing the F-110 would have. The F-4C and all later F-4s have thicker wing roots that housed the fatter tires & strengthened main gear. The F-4J kit would the later, thicker wing. The USMC RF-4Bs had the thinner wing except for the last 10 or so airframes, which had the same thick wings as USAF RF-4Cs and export RF-4Es.

The wing thickness is a major challenge when trying to backdate a later F-4 to an early one if you're working with a later kit. It's the wing tops as well as the landing gear doors that are different. There's no F-4B kit in 1/32, but it would be pretty easy to have an accurate F-110 out of the box since you're working in 1/48 and have the option of the Hasegawa kit.

I've always seen the standard Navy scheme of the era (light gull gray over white) quoted as the F-110 scheme.

[Rex]

they were Flat Light Gull Gray (36440) over Gloss White, David

the scheme is very well documented,,,,,by the color names, at least,,,,,the FS numbers are 595 "A" equivalents (Jan 1968),,,,,judging by the timing, the 1962 aircraft would be 595 "no letter" or ANA,,,,,but, all paint you would buy would be labeled in 595A or B/C colors

[Paulkmin]

http://mmzone.co.kr/media/attach3/mmzimg1329155772363.jpg

it would be an option. there is a rumor that academy will release this around this summer. it's already behind their original 2011 schedule, at least it will have recessed panel lines.

[David Rapasi]

My 595A catalogue is close to fifty years old and has minor water damage so I looked up the chips online.

I also compared some older online chips that I had saved. I looked up all three colors just for reference.

These are the Federal Standard Chips I found from different sources and the Model Master paint chips from Testors, plus the color of the paint in the bottles.

One thing I found was that the most prominent online paint chip site has the same color for FS 16440 and FS 36440.

In the ‘70s when I built a S3-A I purchased the 3X5 color cards from the G.S.A. to mix my paint because these two colors looked different in my catalogue, both colors were used on this aircraft.

Dave

[Rex]

16440 and 36440 look different in your FS booklet, because they WERE different in real life back then

they are only the same NOW, because of a mistake in the 80's by a prominent aftermarket producer,,,,,and the mistake has been repeated for decades since then by all the other "experts" in the hobby

okay, the easy way to look at this,,,,,,either that one person made one mistake,,,,and it went into print that way, and has been followed ever since then

or

another guy had the Munsell company make 40 or 50 mistakes, they fed him their results, and then he printed those same mistakes in his 4 volume "bible" series of USN colors,,,,,he was one of them thar "unknowledgable" dudes from the Smithsonian, after all

I will believe the "one mistake by a hobby dude" idea quicker than the "50 mistakes repeated by the Smithsonian guy"

this "opinion" thing is getting out of hand,,,,in the interest of "no model or modeler left behind" there are real, honest, documented facts being washed away

they were LGG over W until the change to overall Gloss Gull Gray,,,,,that is the documented fact,,,,,,,,any other "opinion" is what used to be called an "error",,,,,,back when it was okay to label those mistakes as such

[Rex]

oh, and for the record, the Model Master paints are two different colors,,,,,because they were designed and produced BEFORE the "model guy" made his book and made his errors,,and before the internet started mixing all colors into one big pot

I would love to hear someone's logic for the few places that show the colors different "on the same line",,,,,,,,,how did they come up with those differences?,,,,,,,,random error?,,,,,no,,,,they are the correct ones, there is no way to make those "errors"

[Jennings]

F (dash) 110A: F-110A

F (dash) 4B: F-4B

F (dash) 4C: F-4C

An F-4B and and F4B are not the same thing, and there's no such thing as an F4-B, at least not made by McDonnell.

:)

[DonSS3]

This may (or may not) be useful:

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10040832

Hasegawa's 1/48 F-110A. unfortunately, they decided to show the USN F-4B/N on the markings sheet instead of the F-110, but you can get a good look at the parts, assembly instructions and the decal sheet.

[Rex]

as I said, just look at the second box instead of the markings box,,,,,,it shows the F-110A decals and instructions

[Ben Brown]

Dave, you might want to go with an F-4B rather than an F-4J kit, because the B has the thinner wing the F-110 would have. The F-4C and all later F-4s have thicker wing roots that housed the fatter tires & strengthened main gear. The F-4J kit would the later, thicker wing. The USMC RF-4Bs had the thinner wing except for the last 10 or so airframes, which had the same thick wings as USAF RF-4Cs and export RF-4Es.

The wing thickness is a major challenge when trying to backdate a later F-4 to an early one if you're working with a later kit. It's the wing tops as well as the landing gear doors that are different. There's no F-4B kit in 1/32, but it would be pretty easy to have an accurate F-110 out of the box since you're working in 1/48 and have the option of the Hasegawa kit.

I've always seen the standard Navy scheme of the era (light gull gray over white) quoted as the F-110 scheme.

Here's the set to convert the Hasegawa F-4J to a B: http://www.royaleresin.net/products/productpage/r050.html

Rex, I'd love to hear more on who made the mistake regarding the different FS XX440 greys and why two different FS XX440s (or any other 2 colors) would be different. I can see why a gloss and a flat would appear different. I always thought the last 3 of the FS number were the actual color callout, while the first # determined whether the paint was flat, eggshell, or gloss and the second was the general color group, e.e., grey, red, blue, etc. I'm not trying to be argumentive. I'm genuinely interested, since this goes against what I'd always thought.

Cheers!

Ben

Edited March 12, 2012 by Ben Brown

[Falcon50EX]

David, at the risk of interjecting reckless over-simplification, if i were doing an F-110A, i would use MM Flat Light Gull Gray and Gloss White. To account for scale effect, washes, and colour shifts, i'd mix my MM Light Gull Gray about 1:1 with flat white, although MM paints can show surprising variability from bottle to bottle. In some cases, maybe 2 parts Gull Gray to 1 part Flat White. The colour will darken with a gloss coat, hence my desire to bias the paint towards the lighter end during the painting.

And now, back to my F-101B.....

Cheers,

david

[Lucio P.]

Be aware that early phantom used martin baker MK.5 not the "famous" MK.7

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=225126

[Tony Stark]

Euro 1 replaced the FS30219 with FS36118.

TAC's Euro1 scheme on the F-4 used 36081 gray, not 36118.