Monogram 1/72 Space Shuttle Discovery *mark II window assembly*

[Hotdog]

While trying to figure out the shape for the tiles around the crew cabin, I came across an issue with the scale of the AMP windows. I'm afraid they may be too large. Do you see the pencil line in the above picture where I was drawing the outline of the tile area? I had to flare the line back towards the cargo bay in order to clear the window and leave room for a couple of columns of tiles. In reality, this line should flare forward a bit, not backward. You can see what I mean in the comparison photo below.

In the comparison above, I have illustrated with a red dashed line where I think the edge of the tiles should be. The windows extend too far back for this to work.

So I decided to break out Dutycat's beanie cap for a comparison of the windows and where he put his tiles. As you can see, his windows are much smaller, you can tell even with the masking tape hiding the AMP windows. While I feel the windows on his beanie cap appear to be a bit too small in my opinion, at this point I would say they are closer to the correct scale size than the AMP windows. After scaling the windows in the first image in Photoshop, I concluded that reducing the AMP windows in size to 85% would get them very close to correct.

Now I must figure out how to get around this issue. I could continue to push forward using the AMP windows, but adding the tiles are going to make the overscale painfully obvious. If I go with the warped shape that I tried to sketch out in pencil in the first image, it's not going to look right. If I correct the shape and make it straight like the dotted line in the comparison pic, the tiles will have to stretch almost all the way back to the aft overhead windows in order to clear the AMP window frames. This would also not look right.

What do you guys think? I'm going to contact the guys at AMP and see if they can produce the window kit at 85% for me.

[crowe-t]

Hotdog, I didn't see this coming. I assumed AMP did all their research since their windows are accurately shaped. They are too big but they don't look bad at all. You can always cheat the red dashed line back slightly to just behind the window frames. It won't be 100% accurate but might still work.

I have one of Dutycat's beanie caps and did notice the windows were slightly smaller but not by much. You can always use the Dutycat beanie cap you have.

[K2Pete]

Man, I don't understand why the Shuttle's windows are so-o-o difficult to get correct.

I've got a couple sets of AMP's windows and they did look a little large in the package, but I assumed that AMP did their research and got 'em right. Yes, it's a complex assembly, but they were gonna look right and the assembly process would be worth it.

What a disappointment ... but, in the whole scheme of things, they won't look too bad ... but are outta scale ... darn it.

Can these windows still be used by not using a 'layer' of AMP's product? I'll hafta take a look at my windows.

Thanx for doing all the leg work and cutting and fitting and discovering this inaccuracy, Hotdog.

Pete

[Hotdog]

Yes, the beanie cap has been my Plan B all along if the AMP windows didn't work out, but I'm also trying to produce my shuttle tile kit simultaneously with this build, and satisfy the demand to include the tiles around the crew cabin with the first release of the tile kit.

I've already heard back from AMP and although they used the Shuttle Crew Operations Manual to base the window dimensions off of, they also used the kit windows as a guide and made some concessions in their design. Not a bad idea, but I believe they were a bit too true to the kit and not the real thing. Upon looking at the actual dimensions of the windows, it seems my estimation of a 15% difference in scale is exactly correct.

I am going to work with AMP on helping them revise the windows for a "new and improved" version. So hopefully I can help get these windows more accurate, finish my tile detail set, and be able to save my beanie cap for a future build.

[niart17]

While trying to figure out the shape for the tiles around the crew cabin, I came across an issue with the scale of the AMP windows. I'm afraid they may be too large. Do you see the pencil line in the above picture where I was drawing the outline of the tile area? I had to flare the line back towards the cargo bay in order to clear the window and leave room for a couple of columns of tiles. In reality, this line should flare forward a bit, not backward. You can see what I mean in the comparison photo below.

In the comparison above, I have illustrated with a red dashed line where I think the edge of the tiles should be. The windows extend too far back for this to work.

One thing that may also add to the problem is it looks like the Monogram upper windows are a tad bit too far forward as well. Perhaps moving those back about 1/4 of the way closer to the bay opening, that may leave a bit more room for the tile pattern to be more accurate. It would also appear that you have the windows sitting slightly too far back, which I don't think is your fault because them being too big they can't go in the right location. If you look at the real shuttle pic, the break angle between the outer two windows falls right in-line with the break in the fuselage part. Yours is sitting behind that break. I don't know if that makes sense so I'll try to put a pic of what I mean. It's a VERY tricky part on the real spacecraft, and it seems like there is more to it than is first apparent.

Bill

[niart17]

This is the area I'm talking about. The two lines on the model should be on top of one another. I think the windows being a little too big prevents that from happening.

Bill

[crowe-t]

I have to agree with Bill, that the upper windows are sitting a bit too forward which is slightly adding to the problem. The cockpit windows are one thing that are more accurate on the 1/72 Revell shuttle. It's amazing how all the different shuttle kits only seem to have gotten certain areas right.

I did notice that the center area(of the 3) windows, on each side, is a bit wider on the Monogram kit. The break line looks to be farther out then it should be but not by much. The more that I look at these pictures I can see how much larger the AMP windows are. While they are made for the Monogram kit, surprisingly they don't fit the kit's window area. Maybe this is a mistake in the sizing before the windows were put into production.

Mike.

Edited November 15, 2013 by crowe-t

[Hotdog]

When I reduced the size of the AMP windows by 15%, they fit perfectly with the break angle. So indeed, it is the oversize of the windows causing them to not fit into the proper place.

Here's a quick overlay to show the difference.

EDIT: It probably needs to be rotated just a bit, but you get the idea.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Hotdog

[DutyCat]

Everyone who has attempted to build one of these damn things eventually comes to the realization what a PITA the flight deck windows are. And it is not just a matter of changing the window size, it is all of the geometry in the vicinity. Although not perfect, the beany cap gets you close...relatively quick and easy. I agree with Hot Dog that the windows are probably a tad too small,.....but not much. File them out a skosh if you feel a need to.

[Hotdog]

DAYS 36-40

5.5 hours (91.5 hours total)

Build cost to date: $328.48

I've spent the last few days painting and assembling the Mark II AMP shuttle windows. Lots of starting and stopping to wait for either glue or paint to dry. You have to really take your time and be very careful, especially with the gluing. As you guys know by now, the glue can seep through even the tightest fitted parts.

I decided to go about the assembly process a bit differently this time, and not glue on the outer window frames until after I get these installed into the fuselage. This means the outer layer, for now, will be the top layer of "glass". This way, I can mask the top layer for a little added protection from glue seepage. Here I go using the kit cutouts as stencils for masking each sub-assembly:

And here are the sub-assemblies, masked and held together by clamps for gluing.

I only glued the edges facing the table. I used very small dots of Loctite super glue, applied with a microbrush, and only on the straight edges. I avoided the corners of the windows fearing too much chance of glue seeping down into the sandwiched parts that way. I'd give each application 30 minutes to fully set before rotating them around and gluing the opposite edge.

Even with all of this care, I still had a couple of areas where the glue penetrated and stained the paint, as you can see in the photograph above. I can live with the spot in the gray area of the windows, but the spot on the black corner area is way too noticable. The glue managed to seep in and stain this exact same spot on both window assemblies!

So I came up with a solution: mask the black framed area and paint over it with a Testors Flat Black paint marker. In the above pic, you can see both assemblies masked and ready for this experiment. I tried the technique out on a spare piece of clear styrene just to make sure it would work beforehand. Bear in mind, this solution wouldn't even be possible if I had included the outer frame in the gluing process. Leaving them out of the initial gluing process turned out to be a good idea!

So here's how they turned out. I got a bit of a scare out of the paint marker, as it went on VERY WET and appeared to soak through the Tamiya masking tape. Fortunately, the tape held up for the most part, and there was only minimal bleed-thru. The spots that did bleed through were easily removed with a toothpick.

The windows may look a bit rough around the edges, but keep in mind, I still haven't applied the outer window frames. The above picture shows a dry fit of the unpainted window frames. The windows should look a lot cleaner once these parts are in place. Another reason for leaving them off, I still have to glue and putty these things into the fuselage. I will need a little bit of wiggle room between the edges of the parts and the visible areas of the windows to get them smoothly flush and into place. I'll use the stencils to mask the windows again before starting the install process.

[Astro-AL]

Do you thing these AMP windows could be used on the 1/72 Revell Shuttle kit? Or does it only work with the monogram because they replace the big clear window pieces?

[Hotdog]

The AMP windows are meant to be for either the Monogram or Revell 1/72 kits. But this being a very new product, no one has tried them on a Revell shuttle yet! If you have the Revell orbiter in your stash you should get a set. Here's a link to their website.

[Astro-AL]

Thanks for the reply Hotdog,

I have a 1/72 Revell shuttle kit in my stash I plan to do in the future. On the Revell kit the windows are the right size and shape but the inner most windows start a little too far apart. So really on the Revell kit all 3 windows on each side have to slide inward about 2mm toward the center line ideally to be perfectly accurate in position. On the Revell kit windows and dividing struts between then are all at the same level and the kit windows are installed from the inside. I noticed you had to cut out the window frame struts and enlarge the frames on your monogram kit. So I would have to cut out the dividing struts on the Revell kit also and maybe enlarge the frames as well. That would be major surgery on the model and I not sure if I would want to try it with my Revell kit because I'm not as skilled yet. But these AMP window do look good.

[Hotdog]

Keep in mind, these are the Mark II AMP windows so they are smaller than the original set that required cutting out that huge hole. The cutting and sanding to make these fit should be minimal in comparison. These windows are a lot of work, but I expect the end result will be well worth it!

[POTKC]

Really awesome build. I will keep this thread bookmarked.

[Argento_1975]

Excellent work with windows. Perfect.

[Youngtiger1]

Brian, those windows are looking nice. So, if I understand it correctly they are bit oversized?? They look like the best product in the market, but I'll wait to see what you can do with them before I pull the trigger.

Mike

[Hotdog]

The original sets were oversized, but the Mark II set I was trying out before putting this build on hold is much closer to the real thing. When you order, you might specify that you want the smaller Mark II set just to be sure.