Decal musings

[Thommo]

The past few years, I've found decals a real pain - slivering and not bedding down properly, especially the smaller thin ones like those wing walk black lines (and it happened again today with my current Tamiya Spit build). I've had this problem with Tamiya, Hase and Academy decals.

When I got back into this hobby about 15yrs ago, I never had this problem. I thought it was because I was building mostly Airfix kits and the decals were just good. But today I got to thinking, Back then I used Tamiya clear gloss coat, and don't recall using Micro Set or Sol.

Today I use Future (Pledge One Go - same thing apparently) cut with about 30% Windex as my clear coat and almost always used Micro Set, and Micro Sol if I'm really struggling. I often find myself having several attempts with the Set/Sol and having to press the decals down hard with a damp cloth. I'm wondering if the Micro Set/Sol actually react with and remove the Future = decal problems?

Any thoughts? Maybe I'm just getting old and useless :blink:

[wright2626]

i thought that the ammonia in windex would affect the future. isnt that what you use to remove future from canopies? you may want to try actual automotive washer fluid, ammonia free as your cutting agent.

[ChippyWho]

Micro Set has a very strong scent of acetic acid! Now, good old malt vinegar will remove Klear/Future/Pledge even quicker than ammonia...

[Ratch]

I've just done an old Frog Arado 234. The airframe was sprayed with old Klear and I used the kit decals except for the Staffel/Kg markings put on with Microset and Microsol. The kit ones went on fine, the others (not sure whether these were Italeri or Revell as they came from my spares box) silvered. No rhyme or reason to that one.

[Triarius]

Now, good old malt vinegar will remove Klear/Future/Pledge even quicker than ammonia...

Now that's interesting …:hmmm:/>

[Triarius]

Today I use Future (Pledge One Go - same thing apparently) cut with about 30% Windex as my clear coat

<emphasis mine>—Triarius

That's a big part of your problem: the Windex. Don't thin the Future at all unless the local temperature is very high and the humidity very low, and then only about 10%, with 90%+ isopropyl alcohol.

I'm wondering if the Micro Set/Sol actually react with and remove the Future = decal problems?

<emphasis mine>—Triarius

And there's the rest. I rarely use either Micro Set or Micro Sol unless the surface is highly irregular. Then I wait until the next day and gently wipe the decal with water to remove any residue, then overcoat with clear or clear flat, depending. HOWEVER, there is a better way:

Use Future as your setting solution. When the decal is ready, brush a thin layer of Future on the surface, take the decal out of the water, dip in Future, and apply. The Future sets slowly enough to position the decal, and is strong enough even in a liquid state to help prevent splintering or breaking. Gently blot up any excess Future around the decal with a lint-free paper or cloth towel, and allow to dry. The Future will pull the decal down to the surface better than anything else can because of its high drying shrinkage. Once I tried this technique, I never looked back.

[falcon20driver]

I've stopped using future as of my last build, and my results improved drastically. I realized the future technique just isn't for me.

[Bob Beary]

I've stopped using future as of my last build, and my results improved drastically. I realized the future technique just isn't for me.

Are you still using Future as your gloss coat or have you switched to something else?

Thanks,

Bob

[FAR148]

Use Future as your setting solution. When the decal is ready, brush a thin layer of Future on the surface, take the decal out of the water, dip in Future, and apply. The Future sets slowly enough to position the decal, and is strong enough even in a liquid state to help prevent splintering or breaking. Gently blot up any excess Future around the decal with a lint-free paper or cloth towel, and allow to dry. The Future will pull the decal down to the surface better than anything else can because of its high drying shrinkage. Once I tried this technique, I never looked back.

+1

[Thommo]

HOWEVER, there is a better way:

Use Future as your setting solution. When the decal is ready, brush a thin layer of Future on the surface, take the decal out of the water, dip in Future, and apply. The Future sets slowly enough to position the decal, and is strong enough even in a liquid state to help prevent splintering or breaking. Gently blot up any excess Future around the decal with a lint-free paper or cloth towel, and allow to dry. The Future will pull the decal down to the surface better than anything else can because of its high drying shrinkage. Once I tried this technique, I never looked back.

So with this method, does it mean there is no need to gloss coat the entire model? You just apply by brush the Future to the spots where the decals go?

[Triarius]

So with this method, does it mean there is no need to gloss coat the entire model? You just apply by brush the Future to the spots where the decals go?

I gloss coat the whole model. Otherwise the area around the decal will not look the same as the parts where there are no decals, even if you later coat it with a clear flat. The light will be refracted and reflected differently. To keep things uniform, it seems best to coat the whole model with a clear, then apply decals, then apply your final clear, gloss or flat.

I have heard of others who only apply Future to the decaled areas. This might work with very dark colors, like the dark blue used on US naval aircraft.

[Thommo]

I gloss coat the whole model. Otherwise the area around the decal will not look the same as the parts where there are no decals, even if you later coat it with a clear flat. The light will be refracted and reflected differently. To keep things uniform, it seems best to coat the whole model with a clear, then apply decals, then apply your final clear, gloss or flat.

I have heard of others who only apply Future to the decaled areas. This might work with very dark colors, like the dark blue used on US naval aircraft.

Thanks Triarius, I'll try that on my next model.

As for the fin flashes and underwing roundels on my current 1/48 Spit, I think I'll rip the decals off with masking tape and airbrush those markings on. I airbrushed the top wing roundels because of my new-found decal fear :unsure: , and I wanted them to look rough and weathered (doing a heavily weathered Malta Spit EP691), and they turned out just how I wanted.

[falcon20driver]

Are you still using Future as your gloss coat or have you switched to something else?

Thanks,

Bob

I stopped using a gloss coat all together. I just polished the paint itself and decaled directly on the paint. I used micro set/sol and solvaset as normal. Its the technique used by Paul B. that he teaches on his youtube show.

[Thommo]

HOWEVER, there is a better way:

Use Future as your setting solution. When the decal is ready, brush a thin layer of Future on the surface, take the decal out of the water, dip in Future, and apply. The Future sets slowly enough to position the decal, and is strong enough even in a liquid state to help prevent splintering or breaking. Gently blot up any excess Future around the decal with a lint-free paper or cloth towel, and allow to dry. The Future will pull the decal down to the surface better than anything else can because of its high drying shrinkage. Once I tried this technique, I never looked back.

Yup, this worked well. Only slight issues were the Future grabs the decal pretty hard straight away so it can be harder to move into position, and if you don't blot up the Future fairly quickly you can get a bit of thick residue there. But it certainly sucks the decal down hard into the panel lines and minimal silvering - which should disappear with a flat coat.

How does it go when the decal needs to go over raised features on the surface? That was my problem in my previous attempt, there were big creases in the decal next to the bumps on the underwing that Set/Sol could just not deal with. In the end I airbrushed the blue & white sections of the roundel over those bumps, then used your Future method to apply the red circle in the centre (which had to go over the shell ejection holes).

[Triarius]

Yup, this worked well. Only slight issues were the Future grabs the decal pretty hard straight away so it can be harder to move into position, and if you don't blot up the Future fairly quickly you can get a bit of thick residue there. But it certainly sucks the decal down hard into the panel lines and minimal silvering - which should disappear with a flat coat.

How does it go when the decal needs to go over raised features on the surface? That was my problem in my previous attempt, there were big creases in the decal next to the bumps on the underwing that Set/Sol could just not deal with. In the end I airbrushed the blue & white sections of the roundel over those bumps, then used your Future method to apply the red circle in the centre (which had to go over the shell ejection holes).

Doesn't matter whether the detail is raised or recessed, at least with any I've tried.

[stevehnz]

I've used Klear/Future as a setting agent with excellent results. After using it as a clear coat where I'm decalling, I use a 50% diluted with water solution of Future to set the decals with, this allows for plenty of working time & doesn't grab the decals as Thommo has mentioned above, but still does the job of dragging the down into surface detail. I roll the excess out from under the decal with a damp q-tip/cotton bud which encourages the decal to settle into recessed detail. Over raised bits, I slit the decals as the Klear dries adding more to migrate into the slit as necessary to drag the decal down as it dries. This may necessitate some small retouching but I haven't found this to be necessary on small raised details, bare in mind, I'm a 1/72 scale modeller, 1/32 or 1/24 has bigger raised details.

Steve.

[Triarius]

I've used Klear/Future as a setting agent with excellent results. After using it as a clear coat where I'm decalling, I use a 50% diluted with water solution of Future to set the decals with, this allows for plenty of working time & doesn't grab the decals as Thommo has mentioned above, but still does the job of dragging the down into surface detail. I roll the excess out from under the decal with a damp q-tip/cotton bud which encourages the decal to settle into recessed detail. Over raised bits, I slit the decals as the Klear dries adding more to migrate into the slit as necessary to drag the decal down as it dries. This may necessitate some small retouching but I haven't found this to be necessary on small raised details, bare in mind, I'm a 1/72 scale modeller, 1/32 or 1/24 has bigger raised details.

Steve.

:thumbsup:/> I like the idea of diluting the Future for decal setting purposes.

[Paul Budzik]

I think a lot of folks don't understand ... Windex does not equal ammonia. It's not nearly as strong and it's got something else in it that's supposed to leave the glass shiny. IMHO, it actually leaves the glass greasy. I think when you use materials that contain unknowns, it's hard to control the results.

Paul

[Triarius]

I think a lot of folks don't understand ... Windex does not equal ammonia. It's not nearly as strong and it's got something else in it that's supposed to leave the glass shiny. IMHO, it actually leaves the glass greasy. I think when you use materials that contain unknowns, it's hard to control the results.

Paul

Windex (the kind with ammonia, they have one without) is mostly 90% isopropyl alcohol, a surfactant, a dye, fragrance, and a small amount of ammonia ("Ammonia D"). It does not contain a shine enhancer (or it didn't last time I bought it) and I think that is unlikely, as most of those are not compatible with ammonia. If your windows look greasy after using it, try cleaning them again. Certainly doesn't do that with ours.

[Joel_W]

Decal prep requires that the surface be smooth, not necessarily glossy. I've seen plenty of glossy/rough surfaces, so the two aren't necessarily the same. I used Pledge up until my F-15C build, then switched back to Glosscoat, When dry I polish it, then I'm ready for decaling. I use Paul Budzik's method of Micro Sol, under and over, then Micro Set over, followed by Solvaset. The decals settle into every nook and cranny. Falcon20driver uses Paul's method of polishing the paint so it's smooth enough for decaling without a Glosscoat. The advantage of that is that the recess details aren't partially filled with a clear gloss. That's one procedure I've yet to try.

The key to decaling is a smooth surface. Flat paint is an issue as it has a rough texture. Polishing out the paint 1st really makes a difference. I'm still a neophyte at it, so I tend to need more Glosscoat then what should be necessary.

There are a few instances that I still use Pledge, which is for small jobs that I'm just too lazy to use my air brush for.

Joel

[Triarius]

My only (potential) problem with polishing flat paint—the technique certainly works—is that one has to polish the whole model. If you are willing to do that, fine. The other potential issue I see is that if you don't polish a panel all in the same direction, it may look mottled. That, in itself, may be used to great effect, just as polishing different panels in different directions may. In 1/72 scale, I can see taking the time, but not for me in 1/48 or larger.

Still, it's another shot in our locker. :thumbsup:/>

[chuck540z3]

Today I use Future (Pledge One Go - same thing apparently) cut with about 30% Windex as my clear coat and almost always used Micro Set, and Micro Sol if I'm really struggling. I often find myself having several attempts with the Set/Sol and having to press the decals down hard with a damp cloth. I'm wondering if the Micro Set/Sol actually react with and remove the Future = decal problems?

A couple of things that might be helpful:

1) Just how smooth a finish do you have on your model after a coat of Future? If the paint finish isn't super smooth before you apply Future, the finish won't be smooth enough after Future either. Make sure the surface is as glass-like as possible.

2) I routinely use Microsol on all my decals, whether they look like they need it or not. What looks good when it's wet is not always what it will look like when it's dry.

3) The first coats of Future should only have maybe 10% of Windex to break down the surface tension, slow down drying time and make the solution thinner to spray. 30% Windex for the first coat is a bit too much, but I often use as much as 50% Windex on subsequent coats to knock down orange peel. Of course the surface must be completely horizontal to do this until it sets, or it will run.

4) After a few hours or maybe days of drying, re-spray another coat of thinned Future over the decals to seal them in. This also provides a opportunity for the Future to wick under any silvered decals via capillary action.

5) Small decals like "No Step" ones seem to still silver the most. Use a needle and more Microsol to get them to suck down against the surface of the model, even after a coat of Future. When all is well (maybe 2-5 attempts), spray another coat of Future over them to keep them that way.

Hope this helps.

Chuck

[Joel_W]

My only (potential) problem with polishing flat paint—the technique certainly works—is that one has to polish the whole model. If you are willing to do that, fine. The other potential issue I see is that if you don't polish a panel all in the same direction, it may look mottled. That, in itself, may be used to great effect, just as polishing different panels in different directions may. In 1/72 scale, I can see taking the time, but not for me in 1/48 or larger.

Still, it's another shot in our locker. :thumbsup:/>/>

Triarius,

I would suggest you checkout Paul's site for some of his finished models. Chuck who just completed his 1/32 A10, polishes out the flat paint before he glosses with Pledge. He posted some pictures of his 1/32 F-4 glossed, and it's like a highly polished/wax car.

Joel

[Triarius]

I didn't say it wouldn't work, I said it was too much work!:lol:/> At least for me, under most circumstances. Car modelers routinely polish their paint, and if you want a candy-apple finish, it's definitely the way to go. What was new to me, here, was using it for decaling. Using it to change the appearance of a flat paint, without adding anything but energy to the surface, was something I knew—but had mostly forgotten … :foof:/>

[Paul Budzik]

Triarius ...

If it was 90% isopropyl alcohol (which I use all day long) it would evaporate a lot faster. So I doubt your claim. I can clean a side by side piece of glass with alcohol and get it clean and squeaky in one pass, but use Windex on the other all day long and there will still be something on the glass. Just shake your bottle of Windex and a bottle of 90% isopropyl and you'll see a difference.

So you clean your windows your way, and I'll clean them mine.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Paul Budzik