Tomcat and the Phoenix

[Karl Sander]

Exsqueeze me? Pilot is actually the traditional name given to the ships Navigation Officer, which dates back to the days of sail. :huh:

:huh:

I presume this would be the chap who determines the precise lat/long of my post-night-trap-burger eating?

(wow, that's a lot MORE negative karma for Kolja)

[Karl Sander]

Guilty parties can be found in all paygrades, so the typical "blame the Admirals" mentality doesn't wash.

Mike, my friend - how was the Kool-Aid?

"blame the Admirals" mentality always washes. Especially when we should, in fact, blame them.

[ElectroSoldier]

I presume this would be the chap who determines the precise lat/long of my post-night-trap-burger eating?

(wow, that's a lot MORE negative karma for Kolja)

I thought he was the one who kept your runway in the water by not intruducing parts of the hull to the ground.

[PBoilermaker]

Mike, my friend - how was the Kool-Aid?

I wouldn't know. Beyond my requisite cynicism, I am known as a SWO who 'won't take his medicine and be quiet' like most.

"blame the Admirals" mentality always washes. Especially when we should, in fact, blame them.

Let me clarify. My comment did not absolve the admiralty of guilt...they obviously make the changes and policies stick. However, indifference, incompetence and apathy abound in ALL paygrades. The admirals, the people who advise them, the CoC's that support detrimental policies and the fleet sailors/officers who let irrational bureaucrats inside and outside the Navy do their damage.

The military isn't a democracy, but we all have a duty to wave the BS flag when warranted. Too many people are scared to do so.

-Mike

[PBoilermaker]

I presume this would be the chap who determines the precise lat/long of my post-night-trap-burger eating?

(wow, that's a lot MORE negative karma for Kolja)

Interesting viewpoint. CVN CO's are aviators...so were the CVN Navigators I have met.

[Fishwelding]

I presume this would be the chap who determines the precise lat/long of my post-night-trap-burger eating?

(wow, that's a lot MORE negative karma for Kolja)

I'm not certain how that's bad karma. Feeding Prowler aircrews is, after all, serious national security business. The engineers did include a multi-zillion-dollar kitchen system aboard ship for a reason. They probably spent as much on the machine that produces 'prowler-chow' as they did on the navigational equipment that puts it in the right place at the right time. I'm persuaded that the US won the cold war this way. Tomcat Shmomcat; he who has the biggest kitchens aboard ship wins.

This is the "Hamburger" thesis of cold war history.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Fishwelding

[ElectroSoldier]

Definitions of aviator on the Web:

an airplane pilot

www.geocities.com/daretofly2001/glossary.html

the operator or pilot of an airplane

library.thinkquest.org/3785/glossary.html

A person who flies or can fly aircraft; a pilot.

www.mariner.org/chesapeakebay/century/vocab.html

[PBoilermaker]

Well, this thread has transgressed nicely. My apologies as well to Todd as I'm partly responsible.

-Mike

[David Walker]

Actually it went this way so smoothly (or so gradually anyway) that it wasn't until your post that I recalled that this was titled " Tomcat and the Phoenix."

[tmf]

No worries. Enjoying the dialog! :)

Todd

[Mark Lynam]

Definitions of aviator on the Web:

an airplane pilot

www.geocities.com/daretofly2001/glossary.html

the operator or pilot of an airplane

library.thinkquest.org/3785/glossary.html

A person who flies or can fly aircraft; a pilot.

www.mariner.org/chesapeakebay/century/vocab.html

Well, if you're going to consult recent references (since the development of the airplane) sure, BUT you need to look at the origins of the word (IE: pre-airplane).

For instance: Origins of aeronautical terminology: http://www.copanational.org/non-members/sa...tyPPNov04.htm... quotes:

"The ancient Greeks apparently had a word for “oar†(that thing for paddling as well as steering a rudderless boat) and the Latin adaptation of that word was “pilotus.†The similarity between steering a boat to piloting an airplane is clear and it takes little effort to see how the term pilot has come into use."

This is but one of many references that defines the word Pilot in a nautical sense, predating the aviation context potentially by thousands of years.

[Karl Sander]

I wouldn't know. Beyond my requisite cynicism, I am known as a SWO who 'won't take his medicine and be quiet' like most.

Let me clarify. My comment did not absolve the admiralty of guilt...they obviously make the changes and policies stick. However, indifference, incompetence and apathy abound in ALL paygrades. The admirals, the people who advise them, the CoC's that support detrimental policies and the fleet sailors/officers who let irrational bureaucrats inside and outside the Navy do their damage.

Evidently we have many productive discussions ahead of us at the O Club bar (of course, the PC mafia being what they are, there's precious few of those left...)

Interesting viewpoint. CVN CO's are aviators...so were the CVN Navigators I have met.

Apostates all. Anyone who would rather wear kakhis than a flight suit, or be a CVN skipper than a CAG, or a Navigaor than, well ANYTHING, or an ANAV instead of a prison b**ch is, frankly, part of my problem.

[PBoilermaker]

Evidently we have many productive discussions ahead of us at the O Club bar (of course, the PC mafia being what they are, there's precious few of those left...)

Perhaps...

Apostates all. Anyone who would rather wear kakhis than a flight suit, or be a CVN skipper than a CAG, or a Navigaor than, well ANYTHING, or an ANAV instead of a prison b**ch is, frankly, part of my problem.

I see bitterness isn't just restricted to my designator.

[ElectroSoldier]

Anyway getting back to the topic at hand.

I know of the ASRAAM and AMRAAM missiles but is there going to be a long range modern missile like those two?

Or have the days of long range engagments gone for good.

[Murph]

Anyway getting back to the topic at hand.

I know of the ASRAAM and AMRAAM missiles but is there going to be a long range modern missile like those two?

Or have the days of long range engagments gone for good.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...rope/bvraam.htm There are proposed developments of the AMRAAM that increase its range also. There are inherent problems with employing these longer range missiles though.

Regards,

Murph

[GreyGhost]

Apostates all. Anyone who would rather wear kakhis than a flight suit, or be a CVN skipper than a CAG, or a Navigaor than, well ANYTHING, or an ANAV instead of a prison b**ch is, frankly, part of my problem.

Karl, I imagine some folks don't want to give up the "speed jeans" but things like getting older get in the way ... Some may choose to purely for advanement ... But there will come a time that even you will have to make the tough desicion, choose wisely my friend, weigh your options and come to a clear choice ...

Gregg

Edited April 1, 2006 by GreyGhost

[Fishwelding]

...I imagine some folks don't want to give up the "speed jeans" but things like getting older get in the way ... Some may choose to purely for advanement ...

Getting old and personal advancement is one thing, shaping the future of the navy is another. I might argue that officers too old to be anything else but admirals are equally if not more important than those that still do the job represented in metal opposite their name tag. It is these older officers that will provide the insight to national and military strategy-makers. It is they that advocate their service's needs and perspectives in the public forum. If they lack the insight of experience, or simple character to make it heard, or they are absent from decision and doctrine-making councils, then responsibility for policy will fall to other officers or civilians. The latter will quite understandibly decide in favor of other branches, services, and causes to which they owe allegience, but not necessarily for the good of the United States.

Bitterness, properly focused, has served some of the Navy's most visionary leaders, and, I might argue, the Navy itself.

[GreyGhost]

I agree whole-heartedly with you Fish ... Good post ...

I understand having contempt for the leaders that should NOT be leading, our military does not need them ... There are so many outside of the military that do so, so well anyway ...

Gregg

[Karl Sander]

My friends, the Gospel According to Kolja is read nightly at the corner of the bar in the Fallon O Club (the one near the "F-Pole"). If you're ever in the Reno/Tahoe area, we can "anchor" on this discussion in greater detail and on my bar tab - but for now I've derailed this thread enough.

[GreyGhost]

There, back on topic Karl ... B)

Gregg

[John B]

If you're ever in the Reno/Tahoe area, we can "anchor" on this discussion in greater detail and on my bar tab

Okay, but does paying the bar bill with ill-gotten wooden coins won on a lucky roll really count as paying? B) Oh wait... what am I thinking?!?! "Free beer to me" is the same as "free beer".