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Tomcat TPS in Tamiya Paint


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11 hours ago, Dave Roof said:

"My paint chip is right!", "No, my paint chip is right", "This is the correct FS color", "No, this is the correct FS color"......................................VMFA-323 and several other squadrons don't care about your "official" paint chips, especially when they open purchase the paint from Home Depot. 

Errr... it's not about squadron decorations, it's about low vis color scheme. 

 

RichardL is right, if decal manufacturers won't just design their decals base on some home depot colors, it will help to make it looks right and also get the contrast right for the stencil decals, then one can fade, weather, change colors of everything together. If stencils already disappeared, then there is no way to fix it.  

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1 hour ago, delide said:

Errr... it's not about squadron decorations, it's about low vis color scheme. 

 

RichardL is right, if decal manufacturers won't just design their decals base on some home depot colors, it will help to make it looks right and also get the contrast right for the stencil decals, then one can fade, weather, change colors of everything together. If stencils already disappeared, then there is no way to fix it.  

 

My point was and is that using actual paint chips is a complete and total waste of time, even for squadron markings.

 

As an example, every single F/A-18 at MCAS Beaufort is painted by the same civilian run paint facility aboard the station and I know for a fact that several of the aircraft have varying tones of 36320 and 36375 for their base schemes. Also, not a single publication mentions the use of open purchased paints, like Krylon. So modelers trying to use paint chips or FS colors to "get things right", may not even be in the right ballpark. 36320 on one aircraft isn't always going to match the 36320 on another and neither will always match an official paint chip. In addition, that "official FS31136" warning placard may just be a generic red out of a rattle can bought at a hardware store.

 

Richard specifically states that one should match their model paints to FS chips and recommends that we, as decal manufacturers, should match our decals to chips. Seriously? The actual colors used on the real jets don't always match chips and no directive is going to change that fact. Perhaps he should also consider starting his own decal line and let the rest of know how matching every single decal to an official paint chip works out.

 

While I appreciate his efforts and passion for getting colors right, the reality is that it isn't always that way the in real world. You know, I recently received a document from the AMO of VMFA-312 that outlines how their jets will be painted. One marking is called out as 37038 Gunship Black and its placement should be IAW MAG Rules. 

 

Until this document, I had never seen 37038 referred to as "gunship" black. MAG-31 also has their own specific guidelines as to where and how squadron markings are to be placed on the F/A-18's. These guidelines don't completely agree with the guidelines set forth in the 2191. 

 

Again, you can't always rely on "official" documents or color chips, when the reality is what's actually used isn't always what was "officially" called for. 

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11 minutes ago, Dave Roof said:

 

My point was and is that using actual paint chips is a complete and total waste of time, even for squadron markings.

 

As an example, every single F/A-18 at MCAS Beaufort is painted by the same civilian run paint facility aboard the station and I know for a fact that several of the aircraft have varying tones of 36320 and 36375 for their base schemes. Also, not a single publication mentions the use of open purchased paints, like Krylon. So modelers trying to use paint chips or FS colors to "get things right", may not even be in the right ballpark. 36320 on one aircraft isn't always going to match the 36320 on another and neither will always match an official paint chip. In addition, that "official FS31136" warning placard may just be a generic red out of a rattle can bought at a hardware store.

 

Richard specifically states that one should match their model paints to FS chips and recommends that we, as decal manufacturers, should match our decals to chips. Seriously? The actual colors used on the real jets don't always match chips and no directive is going to change that fact. Perhaps he should also consider starting his own decal line and let the rest of know how matching every single decal to an official paint chip works out.

 

While I appreciate his efforts and passion for getting colors right, the reality is that it isn't always that way the in real world. You know, I recently received a document from the AMO of VMFA-312 that outlines how their jets will be painted. One marking is called out as 37038 Gunship Black and its placement should be IAW MAG Rules. 

 

Until this document, I had never seen 37038 referred to as "gunship" black. MAG-31 also has their own specific guidelines as to where and how squadron markings are to be placed on the F/A-18's. These guidelines don't completely agree with the guidelines set forth in the 2191. 

 

Again, you can't always rely on "official" documents or color chips, when the reality is what's actually used isn't always what was "officially" called for. 

Interesting. But such variations must be more of exceptions than rules? Otherwise what the FS is for, the whole standard is a total waste of time then. I'd probably ignore the exceptions, but I'm no expert about such things at all, it's interesting for me to read about it.

 

Squadron markings are different, they are usually small and colorful, the colors are so much stronger, so errors are less noticeable I think.

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Well, we all know what happens if the decals do not match proper colors, as already shown in the pictures posted earlier in this thread.  Weeks or months worth of hard work by the modelers go down the toilet.  Now that is a total waste of time, time that some modelers do not have.

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22 minutes ago, RichardL said:

Well, we all know what happens if the decals do not match proper colors, as already shown in the pictures posted earlier in this thread.  Weeks or months worth of hard work by the modelers go down the toilet.  Now that is a total waste of time, time that some modelers do not have.

 

So, in your expert opinion, please explain how we should go about printing decals that will look correct on every brand of paint? As you've pointed out previously in your well documented 'paint comparisons', you of all people should know that paint brands vary in shade, even if they're all labeled the same color. 

 

We can print decals the correct color all day long (and for the most part, we all do), but that doesn't mean they'll look correct on all brands of paint. 

 

I've read that several modelers have had issues with Academy's AH-1Z decals 'disappearing' on their paint and all have criticized Academy for printing them in the wrong color (they should be 35327 and are pretty damn close). However, when applied over Ammo's paint, they look just fine. So which are wrong, the decals or the paints the modeler used?

 

I'll ask again as you seem to be an expert on this, how do you suggest we print decals to look correct on every brand of paint? 

 

No photo description available.

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2 hours ago, Dave Roof said:

 

My point was and is that using actual paint chips is a complete and total waste of time

 

Seriously?  Say this statement to the U.S. Department of Defense

 

So you are saying/implying that the special stealth colors and coatings on the F-22 and F-35 do not have to conform to government specifications and thus are a total waste of time.  Noted!

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3 minutes ago, RichardL said:

 

Seriously?  Say this statement to the U.S. Department of Defense

 

So you are saying/implying that the special stealth colors and coatings on the F-22 and F-35 do not have to conform to government specifications and thus are a total waste of time.  Noted!

 

For scale modeling Richard.........didn't think it was necessary to point that out, but here we are. 

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2 hours ago, Dave Roof said:

So which are wrong, the decals or the paints the modeler used?

 

I'll ask again as you seem to be an expert on this, how do you suggest we print decals to look correct on every brand of paint? 

 

Since you have shown a total disregard for the actual paint chips in your post above, my answer won't help you. 

 

However, smart, savvy modelers tend to choose paints from a brand that has good tendency to match to official color chips.  You do not have to print decals to look correct on every brand of paint, only on those with good match.

 

 

Edited by RichardL
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37 minutes ago, RichardL said:

 

Since you have shown a total disregard for the actual paint chips in your post above, my answer won't help you. 

 

However, smart, well-versed modelers would choose only paints from a brand that has good tendency to match to official color chips.  You do not have to print decals to look correct on every brand of paint, only on those with good match.

 

 

 

You assume too much and your condescending attitude toward fellow modelers that don't use paints up to your standard is an all new low. You're basically saying modelers that use paints they can get or work well for them are considered dumb and not well versed if those paints don't match well to chips. It also implies it's their fault if decals don't look correct on their preferred brand of paint. It must feel pretty good being that smart and well versed. I wouldn't know as I'm just an old Jarhead that likes to snack on crayons (not the ones that match FS colors though, they taste funny). 

 

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59 minutes ago, Dave Roof said:

 

For scale modeling Richard.........didn't think it was necessary to point that out, but here we are. 

 

Yeah, nice save.

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4 minutes ago, Dave Roof said:

You're basically saying modelers that use paints they can get or work well for them are considered dumb and not well versed if those paints don't match well to chips. It also implies it's their fault if decals don't look correct on their preferred brand of paint.

 

Too many assumptions.  You are putting words into my mouth.

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7 hours ago, Dave Roof said:

You're basically saying modelers that use paints they can get or work well for them are considered dumb and not well versed if those paints don't match well to chips

 

Okay, let's remove the paint brand and color from the equation for the sake of discussion and solely focus on decal color in the scenario below:

 

I'm doing a commission build under a tight delivery deadline for a Tomcat pilot, and he handed me a photo of his aircraft taken in a specific timeframe to replicate:

 

f-14b_vf-143.jpg.b219199d8bc01c1a72cac6f8123091aa.jpg

 

The pilot knows the exact color of his squadron emblem on the vertical tail very well, which is black, since he has seen it up-close multiple times in real life.  He also cares about the colors of the other markings on the aircraft.

 

The aftermarket squadron emblem decal for the vertical tail purchased for the build is not black but dark gray on arrival for the same aircraft in the same timeframe, as shown below:

 

pukin_dogs.png.5f1badf0acfd61bba9cd662de15bdea4.png

 

What will happen if I deliver the completed model to the client with the dark gray emblem on the vertical tail?  Assume the client/pilot is not color-blind.

 

Ponder the answer to this question for a bit while I go get more popcorn.

Edited by RichardL
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I think you have two problems.  First, it appears you purchased the wrong aftermarket decals, because the emblem you’re showing looks significantly different than the reference photo.  Forget, the colors, the logo itself is very dissimilar to the fin flash.

 

Second, I think you’re greatly overestimating how important an exact color match is to a pilot. Model builders tend to get extremely hung up on details most pilots really pay very little attention to.  I’m assuming if you get the right squadron and markings overall, he’ll be plenty happy with the build. 

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IMO we as modelers need to accept what we can and cannot change.

 

If a specific decal sheet is not perfectly "FS595 compliant" then the best we can do is adjust the underlying paint colors to achieve a realistic contrast between the decal markings and the underlying paint.  Besides, all this paint chip fetish goes out the window when "scale distance" comes into play.

 

And I agree with Waco, your decal choice differs greatly from the reference photo.

 

.

 

Edited by habu2
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I think Waco made a good point.  On a personal note, PrintScale decals made 1/48 scale decals recently of my A-6 Intruder from Dessert Storm.  I was so excited to see my name, squadron and side number on those decals!  I can tell you I haven't checked them yet for accuracy.  I think they are accurate, but I'm just pretty darn excited to see them produced.  Frankly I don't remember exactly how they looked from 30 years ago.  I think that HobbyBoss intruder it's going to look pretty badass with my name in the side of it in my living room.  That's just my humble opinion though.

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21 hours ago, habu2 said:

And I agree with Waco, your decal choice differs greatly from the reference photo.

 

Ha, that was just a made up example to illustrate a point.  No decal was bought.  Good eye though.  If it was me, I would create a mask for the emblem and cut it out on my cutter, then just airbrush it on.

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23 hours ago, Waco said:

I’m assuming if you get the right squadron and markings overall, he’ll be plenty happy with the build. 

 

I think it depends on the customer and how strict his/her demands are.  I've done several commission builds, and some customers were more anal than the others regarding colors and markings.

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On 3/24/2021 at 8:20 PM, RichardL said:

 

Okay, let's remove the paint brand and color from the equation for the sake of discussion and solely focus on decal color in the scenario below:

 

I'm doing a commission build under a tight delivery deadline for a Tomcat pilot, and he handed me a photo of his aircraft taken in a specific timeframe to replicate:

 

f-14b_vf-143.jpg.b219199d8bc01c1a72cac6f8123091aa.jpg

 

The pilot knows the exact color of his squadron emblem on the vertical tail very well, which is black, since he has seen it up-close multiple times in real life.  He also cares about the colors of the other markings on the aircraft.

 

The aftermarket squadron emblem decal for the vertical tail purchased for the build is not black but dark gray on arrival for the same aircraft in the same timeframe, as shown below:

 

pukin_dogs.png.5f1badf0acfd61bba9cd662de15bdea4.png

 

What will happen if I deliver the completed model to the client with the dark gray emblem on the vertical tail?  Assume the client/pilot is not color-blind.

 

Ponder the answer to this question for a bit while I go get more popcorn.

 

1 hour ago, RichardL said:

 

Ha, that was just a made up example to illustrate a point.  No decal was bought.  Good eye though.  If it was me, I would create a mask for the emblem and cut it out on my cutter, then just airbrush it on.

So which one is it, did you buy the wrong decals or didn't you, make up your mind or at least get your story straight.

 

Look dude, I was going to leave this alone but since I just caught you in another lie let me add a little more;

 

You can wave around federal regulations and paint chips all day long and they won't mean a damn thing. Squadrons didn't follow federal regulations, they followed Squadron, Wing, AirLant/Pac, NAVAIRSYSCOM instructions, the only federal regulations we had in the squadron was the freaking fan deck. If you walked into my squadron with paint chips and federal regulations we would have laughed your arse right out the door and given you a map to help you find a clue.

 

The federal regulations you keep harping on are just one piece of the puzzle, a small piece, they are not the end all be all. You need to look at the Technical Manuals (3-1's, etc) and various instructions/directives, those things governed the painting of the aircraft, not the -595 and paint chips. We viewed those a mere guidelines and used the fan deck to make sure we were close. We couldn't give a rat's arse if we were spot on because the primary reason for a paint job is not to make it look good, it's not camouflage either, it corrosion prevention and as long as it keeps a plane from rusting it's good enough.

 

You obviously don't know half of what you don't know and people here who have actual experience in the matter are trying to tell you that but your too eff'ing stupid to realize it. You may think you are in the right but sadly you are so far wrong you're about to circle back on yourself.

 

Also, the Pukin Dog on the tail was gray at times, I know, I did four and a half years as a Pukin Dog.

 

Also, that photo is from the Pukin Dog's 91/92 Med/Gulf cruise and to my knowledge no one has made decals for that time period so I'd like to know what decals you are going to use. Oh, and you might want to add a big dick to the dog, we (VF-103) painted every dog with one the night before they went out on cruise.

 

Oh, and you popcorn eating agitators, you all can bugger off.

 

 

Edited by GW8345
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11 hours ago, RichardL said:

 

Ha, that was just a made up example to illustrate a point.

 

I had actually taken the time to write down a somewhat lengthy response to a number of your comments until I read this. It wasn't a 'made up' example, you lied. Why you felt the need to lie in order to illustrate a point is beyond me. However, it shows that you're willing to pretty much say whatever is necessary to 'prove' you're right. I have no interest in responding to any more of your comments.

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It seems I owe both Dave and GW8345 an apology for not clearly spelling things out in my original example.  Obviously the word "scenario" is not clear enough and needed to be preceded by the adjective "fake" or spelled out as "fake example", and for this I'm truly sorry.  It was my bad.  Great job for catching this!  At least I admitted it was a made up example "before" you pointed it out and didn't live with the lie.  Was hoping to build up the suspense and gather some interesting answers, but all that is moot now.

 

I do appreciate the few who took the time to offer constructive input.

 

Now consider these "real-world" examples that are related to decal making:

  • A commercial tire manufacturer decides to make a new tire for passenger vehicles.  Does said tire manufacturer really care what vehicle or rim the consumer will mount the tire on?  Not really.  It only cares about making the tire to design specifications:  size, speed rating, tread wear rating, temperature rating, traction rating, weather, season.
  • An airbrush company decides to make an airbrush for scaling modeling.  Does this airbrush company care about the brands of paint or paint colors the consumer will be spray through their airbrush?  Seems they only need to care about meeting design specs:  needle size, nozzle size, color cup size, internal mix vs external mix, etc...
  • A scale model kit company is designing a decal sheet for their upcoming model.  This decal sheet will be included with the model kit.  Does this company really care about the brand of paint or paint colors the consumer will use under the decals?
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Speaking of FS595 fans.  Here's a picture of the TPS colours taken from my FS595a fan deck.  It was printed in 1984, but once it's used, it goes back in the sleeve, so the colours shouldn't have varied too much.  The point to note here is the contrast between the 36375 and 36320.  This contrast is far less than Richard posted.  Does that mean my FS595a fan deck is wrong?  Also, the 35237 is nowhere near as dark as Richard's colour samples.  Again, is my fan deck wrong?  The images were taken on my mobile phone camera with natural light from an overcast sky coming through the window, but they are not far off what I see with my own eyes.

The contrast I see on these samples matches fairly well with what I have seen on F-15s (compass gray scheme) and F-18s on airshows as well as photos.  On some photos of these aircraft, the contrast between the two compass grays is almost non-existant, and others it is discernible, although filters on the lenses may enhance or reduce contrast, and we don't know to what extent they were used.

 

TPS colours.jpg

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