Brit Harrier Gr 7 and Gr 9 Differences

[kstater94]

Except the GR.7 does have them...

I'm sorry Jonathan, but I still disagree with this

I searched through Airliners.net and the only GR.7 that I could find that had the frog eye vents on it (and it was still called a GR.7) was the QinetiQ jet (ZD319) located at Boscombe Down.

All the other GR.7s were sans frog eye vents.

Now, to me, unless one wants to keep a book in his pocket full of serials. I still firmly stand by my statement that the only way to tell the difference between a GR.7 and a GR.9 is those vents.

I would love, however, to be proven wrong (with photographs and serials of course) :)

Cheers!

John

[Jonathan Mock]

I'm sorry Jonathan, but I still disagree with this

I searched through Airliners.net and the only GR.7 that I could find that had the frog eye vents on it (and it was still called a GR.7) was the QinetiQ jet (ZD319) located at Boscombe Down.

All the other GR.7s were sans frog eye vents.

John, I'm sorry but... "All the other GR.7s were sans frog eye vents"?!

Here are some photos taken in the 1990s before the GR.9 even flew, one is a GR.7 65% LERX and the other 100%. Are these the intakes you are referring to?

Yes? Then they are Fire Access intakes that were fitted as a result of the original intake (on the leading edge of the wing) being covered by the 100% LERX. Almost all, if not, all GR.7s that have been fitted with the 100% LERX carry them and have done for nearly the best part of over a decade now. Some GR.7s with 65% LERX also carry them (the front cover of the June 1999 issue of SAM has one such aircraft, ZG480), possibly where the the innards have been reconfigured and the original intakes disconnected.

How hard are you looking on airliners.net, because I'm finding dozens of examples. Ditto almost every book or magazine article about GR.7s from the last twelve years shows 100% LERX GR.7s with the "frog eyes" intakes. Try "The Harrier Story" by Peter E. Davies and Anthony M. Thornborough (Naval Institute Press ISBN-10: 1557503575) or "Harrier: The Inside Story" by Mark Attrill (The Crowood Press Ltd, ISBN: 186126500X) for starters.

Now, to me, unless one wants to keep a book in his pocket full of serials. I still firmly stand by my statement that the only way to tell the difference between a GR.7 and a GR.9 is those vents

Actually, its even less than that - just some basic research. The simple truth is "those vents" were being carried by GR.7s as long ago as the early 1990s.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Jonathan Mock

[Jonathan Mock]

From the early 1990s here's a newly equipped 3 Sqn GR.7 in the BS381C285 NATO Green/BS 4800:12-B-25 Lichen Green scheme with 100% LERX and "frog eyes".

From the mid 1990s here's a 4 Sqn GR.7 with a close up of the intake itself where you can make out "Fire Access".

Edited April 21, 2008 by Jonathan Mock

[Dmanton300]

Some possible conclusions:-

1:/ Every aircraft ever fitted with a 100% LERX has frogeyes by default because the 100% LERX occludes the original fire access points. This applies to AV-8B NA, AV-8B+, GR.7, GR.9, whatever. 100% LERX = Frogeyes.

2:/ In terms of RAF aircraft and 65% LERX you need to check your references. I have found plenty of evidence for GR.7's with 65% also having Frogeyes, it's a more recent development but it's becoming more common, indeed some pictures clearly show that entire panel in a different colour to the rest of the airframe indicating it's replacement status.

3:/ I had reached a possible conclusion that all GR.9's have Frogeyes regardless of LERX fit, which could have led to the conclusion that if it has a 65% and no Frogeyes then it can't be a GR.9. Then I found pics of ZD320, and lo and behold this is a GR.9 with 65% but without Frogeyes! But this is, in itself possibly something to muddy the waters more rather than clarify because ZD320 is BAE's demo aircraft, and thus unlikely to be truly representative of the RAF's Harrier fleet at any given time. And she's the *ONLY* 65% GR.9 I've found sans Frogeyes, not a decisive indicator. So we can say that a squadron aircraft with a 65% LERX and no Frogeyes is unlikely to be a GR.9, but are in no position really to state that as an incontestible fact.

4:/ The only thing we are in any position to state with any surety is that LERX and Frogeye combination are in no way an indicator of whether an aircraft is a GR.7 or a GR.9, it simply doesn't work that way. I think over time we'll see fleetwide Frogeye fits and possibly more and more 100% LERX as they're swapped out during major servicing. But this is supposition based on visible changes within the fleet to date, not a definite statement.

5:/ My lack of decisive facts is starting to make me sound like Vroomfondel.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Dmanton300

[Tricose]

Ok,

I think I opened up the big can of **** on this one. I thought it would be simple but.............. :unsure:

I guess I will just build the kit as a Gr7 and leave it at that.

Thanks for all the interesting responses on this one.

One question though................who is the cute blonde signing the aircraft?? :wub:

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Thanks,

Tricose B)

[phantomdriver]

Probably Michelle Marsh.

[Bobski]

OK, let's sort this out (based on some observation of the real a/c)

All Brit Harriers with a 100% LERX fitted have frog-eye fire extinguisher inlets on the top of the fuselage, regardless of whether they are a GR.7 or a GR.9.

The frog-eye inlets are fitted to 65% LERX GR.7s during the GR.9 upgrade. Pre-GR.9 aircraft with 65% LERX do not have them, with the possible exception of a test a/c at Boscombe Down.

Most of the other differences between the two are mostly internal. I believe most a/c get a new tail section. There are a couple of changes in the cockpit, nothing special. More precision weapons are to added, including Paveway IV and (eventually) Brimstone.

Some a/c have an uprated Pegasus engine fitted. These are GR.7A or GR.9A. The only difference between these and regular GR.7 and GR.9 a/c is the 'A' at the end of their tail number.

Hope that clarifies a few things.

[pablo189]

Regarding the LERX and the difference between the fire access ports or 'frogeye vents' , I posted this on BM some time ago as a good way of telling the LERX's apart. It is also a good view of the vents and illustrates why the 100% Lerx aircraft will always have the frogeyes...

Copied and pasted

"Have a look at the two pics below. The easiest way to tell them apart is by looking at the two small engine bay intakes behind the cockpit. On the 65% aircraft they are a small hole buried in the corner of the wingroot but on the extended lerx they are moved out and up to a position just behind the lerx as the lerx extension covers their original position.

65% Lerx

100% Lerx

In plastic have a look at the 65% Lerx on the Monogram Harrier or the Desert Storm boxing of the Hasegawa kit and compare it to the 100% one on the Hasegawa AV-8B+. "

The frog-eye inlets are fitted to 65% LERX GR.7s during the GR.9 upgrade. Pre-GR.9 aircraft with 65% LERX do not have them, with the possible exception of a test a/c at Boscombe Down.

As regards the frogeyes on the 65% GR7's, there would appear to be a lot of miss identification going around which is only confusing matters more, ZD410 being a good example..here described as a GR7 correctly in the first pic but is now according to number of references a GR9 but still is described as a GR7 again in the second pic...

ZD410 without

ZD410 with

If you look closely at the second pic the original fire access point in the corner of the wing root has been plugged and sealed despite still having the 65% LERX and is sporting the frogeye instead.

And yes, the blonde is Michelle Marsh,

Gary

[Bobski]

As regards the frogeyes on the 65% GR7's, there would appear to be a lot of miss identification going around which is only confusing matters more, ZD410 being a good example..here described as a GR7 correctly in the first pic but is now according to number of references a GR9 but still is described as a GR7 again in the second pic...

ZD410 without

ZD410 with

If you look closely at the second pic the original fire access point in the corner of the wing root has been plugged and sealed despite still having the 65% LERX and is sporting the frogeye instead.

ZD410 is definitely a GR.9. It has been mis-identified in the second photo. As I said, the addition of the frog-eyes is done as part of the GR.9 upgrade.

As a rule I would use airliners.net as a good source for photos, but there can be a great deal of misidentification between marks of aircraft, particularly when the differences are quite subtle. GR.7 and GR.9 Harriers are a good example, as are Typhoon F.2s and FGR.4s.

Yes, it is Michelle. I already have the decals to do my pair of ladies...

Edited April 21, 2008 by Bobski

[Jonathan Mock]

As I said, the addition of the frog-eyes is done as part of the GR.9 upgrade.

Although there were some rougue 65% LERX aircraft in the 1990s that also had the "frog eyes", ZG480 being one such.

I think it can be summed up as thus:

65% LERX, no "frog eyes" - most likely to be a GR.7

100% LERX with "frog eyes" (by default) - either a GR.7 or a GR.9, check dates and serials

65% LERX with "frog eyes" - possibly a GR.9, but there were some GR.7s (re)fitted this way

The only suyre fire way is to pick an aircraft and research its service history.

[Dave Fleming]

I think ZG480 was one of the GR7s that was retrofitted with the 100% LERX - ZG507 was the first aircraft fitted with it on the production line, and aircraft from ZG477 were retrofitted with it at a later date. There may be a couple of earlier aircraft modified as well. I have seen a photo of ZG478 (OP Warden) with 65% LERX and the new intakes

ALL 100% LERX aircraft have the 'frog eyes' because the engine bay ventillation/fire access points in the wing root are covered by the larger LERX. On the GR9, these intakes had to be added to the 65% LERX aircraft as there is a new cable run that goes through the original access point.

So, in current service, an aircraft with 65% LERX and frog eyes will be a GR9

And all the T10/T12s have the 'frog eyes', despite having the 65% LERX!!

Edited April 21, 2008 by Dave Fleming

[pablo189]

Now, to me, unless one wants to keep a book in his pocket full of serials.

That was always the way it was done given the difficulties in telling things apart, includes serial, mark and squadron

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ABC-Military-Aircraf...Q2em118Q2el1247

The only downside being that it was only 100% accurate once a year, the day of publication. A similar thing is available online now though,

http://www.ukserials.com/

[Roland Pulfrew]

How about one of these... Lucy and Michelle are finally here....banana.gif

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=ML48161&PIC_NO=6

Damn

I fancied doing one of the Lucy or Michelle jets, clicked on the link that Gary provided to be told that Hannants have sold out!!!

Anyone know if there is any truth in the rumour that Lucy and Michelle were originally painted in full colour, then over painted as silhouettes, and then removed altogether? Anyone got any pictures of the originals?

[Dave Fleming]

Damn

I fancied doing one of the Lucy or Michelle jets, clicked on the link that Gary provided to be told that Hannants have sold out!!!

Anyone know if there is any truth in the rumour that Lucy and Michelle were originally painted in full colour, then over painted as silhouettes, and then removed altogether? Anyone got any pictures of the originals?

I've never seen photos of the alleged 'full' paintings, only the sillouetes

[pablo189]

Damn

I fancied doing one of the Lucy or Michelle jets, clicked on the link that Gary provided to be told that Hannants have sold out!!!

Anyone know if there is any truth in the rumour that Lucy and Michelle were originally painted in full colour, then over painted as silhouettes, and then removed altogether? Anyone got any pictures of the originals?

Sorry, that link was 'for display purposes only'! :lol:

I got mine from Alistair...

http://www.a2zeemodels.co.uk/airwars-afgha...3-07-2048-p.asp

I know the silhouettes were painted onto the panel beneath the cockpit which was then swapped out at a later date under orders. Didn't know there were full colour originals, would be interested in seeing that! <_<

[Bobski]

Sorry, that link was 'for display purposes only'!

I got mine from Alistair...

http://www.a2zeemodels.co.uk/airwars-afgha...3-07-2048-p.asp

I know the silhouettes were painted onto the panel beneath the cockpit which was then swapped out at a later date under orders. Didn't know there were full colour originals, would be interested in seeing that!

As far as I am aware, there were only the silhouettes painted on the a/c. They were removed when some Guardian-reading spoilsport in the MoD decided it was 'sexist' and would offend female service personnel/the locals.

[bomb'ed]

A GR9 or not a GR9 that is the question!, well some have a very handy sticker on the tail and some dont! Unless you have access to the Aircraft F700 it is difficult to destinguish between the two. Best way if you open one of the panels a spercific GR9 box lies behind it ...best way(assuming you have access to one of the mighty leaping heaps!). If you want to model a GR9, just put enhanced PW2 on the intermediate pylons( the ones between the outrigger and the outboard) as this is a GR9 upgrade. LERX, frog eyes, gunpods, strakes are no 7/9 giveaway, believe me this question has given a few headaches since we started the 7/9 conversion.

[Thomas]

If you want to model a GR9, just put enhanced PW2 on the intermediate pylons( the ones between the outrigger and the outboard) as this is a GR9 upgrade.

What is that, a PW2?

BTW, when was the switch from 65% to 100% LERX?

Thomas

[Bobski]

What is that, a PW2?

BTW, when was the switch from 65% to 100% LERX?

Thomas

PW2 = Paveway II, the UK 1,000lb Paveway LGB.

EPW2 = Enhanced Paveway II, the UK 1,000lb Paveway LGB with extra GPS kit

EPW2+ = Enhanced Paveway II Plus, the UK 1,000lb Paveway LGB with the guidance kit from a Paveway IV

AFAIK there was no 'switch' from 65% LERX to 100% LERX, not in as much as one was replaced with the other on the aircraft. It was changed in production to improve lift I believe, but I don't know when.

[Dave Fleming]

BTW, when was the switch from 65% to 100% LERX?

Thomas

See my post above - from the 67th aircraft in the production run, ZG477