Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[JB2013]

This video explains how Russians are developing a new fighter jet.

Clips of Flankers and Fulcrums can be seen here and enjoy them as research or inspirations on your next build.

Enjoy!

Jack

[F106A]

Link?

Mark

[JB2013]

Link?

Mark

Sorry pal!

Here's the

. Select [CC] for subtitles.

[helyun302]

Sorry pal!

Here's the

. Select [CC] for subtitles.

I dont know if its over-confidence or ignorance that they claim advanced Su-27 and Mig-29 series are 5th gen fighters

[Wayne S]

I dont know if its over-confidence or ignorance that they claim advanced Su-27 and Mig-29 series are 5th gen fighters

Newer variants of the Su-27 and Mig-29s far as I know are called 4+ gen fighters.

Video is talking about the New 5th Gen. They show the Demonstration planes since things are tested on them, that is my take on it.

[Berkut]

I dont know if its over-confidence or ignorance that they claim advanced Su-27 and Mig-29 series are 5th gen fighters

Considering i can understand russian without a problem, i can say that not once they claimed that updated MiG-29 and Su-27 were 5 gen. MiG-35 and Su-35 (new version) are considered 4++ generation.

[F106A]

Thanks for the link fix!

BTW - How many plus signs do you have to add before the aircraft morphs into the next generation? (Just being a bit facetious here!)

Mark

[Jeff]

The PAK FA is delayed and first flight is expected in 2010 (pending no 'further' delays). I have little confidence the Russians can overcome almost 20 years of technological gap jumping from the design of the Su-27 to a design similar to F-22 and F-35. Remember, except for the new variants (or repackaging I would say), there is no new design of military aircraft after the collapse of Soviet Union, and most brilliant scientists do not serve for the Russia scientific complex anymore since one must make a living elsewhere abroad. There is not enough budget for the military, and remember the development cost of F-35 is more than $20 billion (someone can verify this...). Right now, the PAK FA at best has a mere $4 billion budget. What can you do with such a small budget?

In addition, you have to consider Russia not just have to catch up in stealth, the engines, the avionics... It has to invent a new class of missiles to compliment the PAK FA (again, where is the money?). I would say 2020 is a realistic date of where first flight of production batch of PAK FA. By that time, the U.S. and Europe already have the F-35 flying with 'n' Block and 6th generation AI fighter ready.

I think Russia should work with a county like France who is already capable of producing a near 5th generation fighter (reads Rafale). This will shorten the pain staking years for them to play the forever catch up game in fighter design.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Jeff

[Jeff]

I must also say that it is a big mistake for Russia to kill the Yak-41 program as it is very similar to the F-35. With the end and lessons of cold war, noone really wants to deploy a 100,000 ton carrier with no real enemy (It will be nuclear war if the level reaches the need to deploy a super carrier). That's why I think the non-catapulted light carrier combined with the Yak-41 / F-35 fighter provides extreme flexibility to fight small battles (read terrorism) that is a major threat of most countries.

Edit: I think Sustainability is the keyword on fighting future wars.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Jeff

[Sebastijan]

jeff, ground testing airframe of PAK-FA is been tested at TsAGI from August, PAK-FA's first flight should happen in a matter of few months and the technological gap you are mentioning is laughable. The only thing Russians haven't done yet is stealth. Avionics, engines, radars and weapons (at least A2A) are at least comparable to the western designs... and talking of budgets - everything about PAK-FA is classified... about the delays: how long did the US develop the stealths? how much was the Raptor was delayed?

Rafale is a new fighter, yet not better in many areas than original Su-27 and MiG-29 series... not to mention the new Su-30s and MiG-35s. Cooperation which I don't see how would

let the Russians give a break and let them show us their new machine - afterall, it's gonna be one of the last manned fighters

[ross blackford]

There is not enough budget for the military, and remember the development cost of F-35 is more than $20 billion (someone can verify this...). Right now, the PAK FA at best has a mere $4 billion budget. What can you do with such a small budget?

G'day Jeff, I'm not sure where your figure of $USB20 for the F-35 program comes from. For our first 14 production airframes and engines Australia is paying $AB3, so I'd say just at a rough guess the whole development program will cost far more than just $USB20. Perhaps $USB200 would be closer the mark all up, although I'm no expert in US weapons program costings. We should also remember that wages and the like and other costs aren't nearly as high in Russia as in the west. There's an old saying, in military circles,"never underestimate your friends and underestimate your enemies/potential enemies even less."

I think the Russians still suspect the west and maybe we have given them good reason to so I can't see any collaborative programs with the west on 5th genreration fighters. There is the agreement with India, but India can hardly be called a western nation and they have a long history of buying and cooperation with the Russians on weapons programs. I doubt the Russians would agree to a collaborative program with the French, although there is the Normandie-Niemen relationship I believe still today so anything could be possible.

,

Ross.

[MarkW]

F-35 costs are not something you can compare, especially since there are three unique variants, with one being a transformer.

I will say that there are some unique issues that make only getting stealth right a real challenge. If the Russians can build a stealthy air frame the first go out the gate that is affordable and sustainable and functional, I'd be very impressed. Not saying they aren't capable, but they'd have to do a lot of hard things right the first time.

Throw in all the other capabilities that go into a 5th gen beyond stealth, and there are a lot of challenges to overcome. Using the latest Su or MiG variants as testbeds should buy them a lot of progress.

I suspect first flight of the Pak-FA will be akin to the 90's first flights of the Raptor, or the first flights of JSF this decade. Cool looking but largely empty jet.

Edited December 21, 2009 by MarkW

[Aggressor Supporter]

Interesting video. I like hearing other perspectives whether I agree or not.

[Zmey Smirnoff]

I suspect first flight of the Pak-FA will be akin to the 90's first flights of the Raptor, or the first flights of JSF this decade. Cool looking but largely empty jet.

Actually, thats exactly what will happen. First PAK FA prototype will fly with Su-35's cockpit, 117S engines and no radar or weapon control systems. Sukhoi officials pretty much confirmed that several times. But that shouldnt discourage anyone. Airframe is the most important part in this entire project. Russia has plenty of experience building engines, missiles and radars. Its stealth airframe that might give us pause, not the "stuffings".

[MarkW]

I would argue that integrating all that stuff into a stealthy airframe that is operationally suitable and affordable is the real challenge. Stealth in and of itself is relatively straightforward.

[Pirata]

F-35 costs are not something you can compare, especially since there are three unique variants, with one being a transformer.

:)

If the F-35, or Pak Fa, has a version like this, I want one.

[Berkut]

Remember, except for the new variants (or repackaging I would say), there is no new design of military aircraft after the collapse of Soviet Union...

That is not true. Yak-130, Su-47 and MiG-1.44 to start with. I know that some of these steps into late days of Soviet time (MiG-1.44 especially), but they were mostly designed and build after Soviet union collapse.

Right now, the PAK FA at best has a mere $4 billion budget. What can you do with such a small budget?

Unless you work in russian government and work with PAK-FA budget, i doubt that budget figures you state are correct. Not to mention that developing costs are less in Russia, that is well known fact.

It has to invent a new class of missiles to compliment the PAK FA (again, where is the money?).

They are already working on it, and have been for some time. Checkout Su-47 for instance. New weapon bays since atleast middle of 2007. And there is some pictures of Tu-95 with new rails for new missiles that was taken recently.

By that time, the U.S. and Europe already have the F-35 flying with 'n' Block and 6th generation AI fighter ready.

That isn't fair example. For example F-22 program have had almost 20 years of headstart already. 20 years.

I think Russia should work with a county like France who is already capable of producing a near 5th generation fighter (reads Rafale). This will shorten the pain staking years for them to play the forever catch up game in fighter design.

Rafale isn't closer to 5 gen than Su-35 (new model). I would say that it is father away than Rafale.

Rafale is a new fighter, yet not better in many areas than original Su-27 and MiG-29 series...

That is stretching it a bit Seb. Rafale have better electronics and better weapons. It is basically more modern than original (non updated) MiG-29 and Su-27.

I think the Russians still suspect the west and maybe we have given them good reason to so I can't see any collaborative programs with the west on 5th genreration fighters. There is the agreement with India, but India can hardly be called a western nation and they have a long history of buying and cooperation with the Russians on weapons programs. I doubt the Russians would agree to a collaborative program with the French, although there is the Normandie-Niemen relationship I believe still today so anything could be possible.

:),

Ross.

France and Russia have a long story with technological (and cultural) relationship. Su-30 series have French components. T-90 have also French components iirc. And i would be very surprised if Sukhoi Supejet doesn't have any French items.

[ross blackford]

:D, Hi Berkut,

I'm willing to stand corrected on anything that someone else knows more about. That's why I mentioned the Normandie-Niemen relationship and said that anything was possible. I stand corrected.

,

Ross.

[Jeff]

...let the Russians give a break and let them show us their new machine - afterall, it's gonna be one of the last manned fighters

The time when all fighter aircraft becomes unmanned is the time I will stop building my aircraft models :( Let's hope this is not the case as recent news reported the communication link of the unmanned fighters can be "jammed".

[Zmey Smirnoff]

UAVs as they exist today can only be effectively used against a technologically and tactically inferior opponents. If the opponent has even half-competent air defence, those toys dont stand a chance.

[Jeff]

Actually, thats exactly what will happen. First PAK FA prototype will fly with Su-35's cockpit, 117S engines and no radar or weapon control systems. Sukhoi officials pretty much confirmed that several times. But that shouldnt discourage anyone. Airframe is the most important part in this entire project. Russia has plenty of experience building engines, missiles and radars. Its stealth airframe that might give us pause, not the "stuffings".

This is actually the main worry of the PAK FA program. Nowadays, at least in the West, the design of airframe and stealth uses heavily on computer technology for analysis and simulation. I seriously doubt Russia has the same depth of experience compare to the West using these modernized approaches of designing the airframe. In addition, the science and mathematics that Russia are very good at in Soviet times are now gone, as I said before, with the Russian scientist working abroad to earn better living. So, I also doubt they can fall back to the on hand approach of designing the airframe.

I think for the PAK FA program, the most important leverage is the consolidation of several major Russian aircraft designers. I hope the UAC can promise efficiency in the development of the PAK FA, using specialization offered by each subsidary.

[Zmey Smirnoff]

Sources (private people) in KNAAPO claim that highly advanced supercomputers were used to design SSJ-100. I doubt same equipment isnt available for PAK FA program. The brain-drain of the 90s has been over for quite some time now, and while shortage of qualified scientists and technicians exists, its very unlikely that Sukhoi cant find talented people to work on PAK FA design. Besides, the airframe design is complete. Its done deal. One PAK FA has already been shipped to Zhukovskiy and two more remain at KNAAPO. The beginning of th flight test is a matter of weeks now.

[ross blackford]

:D Hi Jeff. I don't think your statement about most Russian scientists, mathematicians and engineers wanting to leave to make better money is very accurate at all. Back just around the time of the October Revolution in 1917 they all had a chance to flee Russia and make more money in the west. Some did but most stayed on eg Tupolev, Polikarpov, Sukhoi, Kalinin. In the 1920s a few did leave Sikorsky being one , just off the top of my head, but most stayed behind to work for the Motherland.

In the 1930s Lisunov and the engineers accompanying him had a great opportunity to defect to the US when he and the others went there to study construction techniques of the Douglas DC-3, which was of course licence built in the Soviet Union as the Li-2, with some 1200 odd engineering changes. Did he take that opportunity? No, he preferred to return to his home land with his new found knowledge and help his countrymen during the war that was about to come.

Not all Russian 'brains' want the lure of the west I'm afraid. It's just like here in Australia; some of our best 'brains' have left for the lure of more money overseas, particularly in the US, but most are quite content to stay and work in their chosen fields here. we even have some US scientists and engineers who have decided to live and work here permanently, forgoing the promise of more money back home for the more relaxed laid back lifestyle we live here and have no intention of returning to the US. A lady I work with at the hospital is a Californian who works as a night receptionist and she never wants to return to the US permanently, even though she could make more money there. She only goes back every couple of years to visit family.

:),

Ross.

[MarkW]

That is not true. Yak-130, Su-47 and MiG-1.44 to start with. I know that some of these steps into late days of Soviet time (MiG-1.44 especially), but they were mostly designed and build after Soviet union collapse.

I think the key point here is how many new systems have been mass produced/fielded? The Yak aside, Russia has popped out some really interesting prototypes, but there is a big difference between wheeling out a couple new Super Flankers every few years and actually being able to mass produce and field/sustain them.

In our topsy turvey bizarro world of now, the West has the numbers...

[Jeff]

Talking about the Mig-1.44, I wonder why the program was abandoned. My gut feeling is that it can achieve 50% level of stealth of the F-22 and having a RCS similar to the latest Mig-21 bison. This will give the 1.44 enough advantage to engage the F-22 in close distance.