OH-58F and OH-58 Block II Info

[SteveV22FE]

Prior to my departure from Bell Helicopter, the OH-58 was beginning th A/C to D cabin conversion. I was poking around the Bell website and found this.....

http://www.scoutsout.com/

This has some good pic of the OH-58F and OH-58 Block II conversion. The Block II pics are very interesting and the first flight video isn't bad either. From what I recall, Bell had to buy a 206 or a 407 to do the demonstrator as they didn't have one. The Block II looks very ARH-70.

You OH-58 buffs might enjoy this conversion.

[rotorwash]

Wayne Mutza sent me a pic of her today:

Here's the included text:

"Bell Helicopter’s OH-58 Block II successfully completes first flight

FORT WORTH, TEXAS (April 18, 2011) – Bell Helicopter, a Textron Inc. company (NYSE: TXT) announces the first flight of its OH-58 Block II demonstrator at its Xworx research and development facility in Fort Worth, Texas on April 14, 2011.

“The flight was flawless and completed according to plan,” said Cathy Ferrie, Director of Bell Helicopter’s Xworx facility. “The Block II is a significant leap forward in performance for the Kiowa Warrior platform and will absolutely make this a 21st Century airframe for the 21st Century soldier.”

Bell Helicopter is developing this OH-58 Block II fleet representative demonstrator to facilitate prototyping activities in anticipation of a U.S. Army future requirement of 6K/95 performance. The Block II OH-58 provides an attractive, cost efficient alternative for the U.S. Army and U.S. taxpayer, and will demonstrate Bell helicopter’s ability to meet or exceed all performance requirements for the Army’s Armed Aerial Scout. Bell Helicopter is developing this aircraft with its own resources and at no cost to the government.

The Block II demonstrator takes an OH-58 Kiowa Warrior and makes it a fast fielding, low risk and lowest cost solution to achieve 6,000ft and 95 degree performance. The “high-hot” performance can be attained with propulsion and drive training upgrades to the existing platform. This upgrade program builds upon the F model Cockpit and Sensor Upgrade Program (CASUP) improvements by adding a new engine, transmission and rotor system.

“By continuing to upgrade the OH-58F into a Block II program, the Army will save money that they can invest in future technologies or future platforms,” said Stephen Eppinette, Army business development manager. “It will also give the Army and the tax payer a return for the money invested in the F model program.”

Along with the performance upgrades, the Block II will adopt fully integrated condition-based maintenance (CBM) technologies so that the aircraft will have higher performance, increased safety, and greater operational readiness while reducing life-cycle costs.

With more than 750,000 fleet combat hours, the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior is a combat- proven aircraft that is safe, rugged and reliable, maintaining the highest readiness rate of any Army helicopter operating in Afghanistan while simultaneously having the highest operational tempo."

I must say that CASUP sounds too much like Catchup as in Bell is trying to "catchup" to the MD 500 series as the supreme scout helicopter. I love Bell and the Huey in particular, but I can't believe that a variant of one of the worst helicopters ever fielded (ie OH-58A) is still in service with the Army, but the Huey, which is without a doubt one of the most successful rotorcraft in history, isn't good enough for them anymore. It's just weird.

Ray

Edited April 19, 2011 by rotorwash

[Loach Driver]

It's getting difficult to keep up with Bell and all these proposed new versions of the OH-58. So far there has been the ARH-70, the OH-58F and now the Block II OH-58D. I think Bell are also currently building OH-58D attrition replacements.

It looks like MD and Van Horn Aviation are improving the 500 Series with new composite main rotor blades. The Test Pilot for this flight is Mr. Greg Ashe, who has been test flying the H500/H-6 since 1978.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Van-Horn-Avi...139430422750408

They also plan to make a new composite tail rotor in the future. An AH-6i with these blades would have even greater hot and high performance. It looks like the Scout War between the H-58 and H-6 is still raging after almost 50 years! MD are also in negotiations with Boeing and could end up building the AH-6i under contract for Boeing.

LD.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Loach Driver

[Loach Driver]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/04/20/355781/us-army-continues-search-for-better-scout-helicopter.html

LD.

[Retired GunPilot]

Great Marketing write-up. Bell is almost as good as as the other two at BS. The Army doesn't save money. It is allocated a budget on a project which they almost always need more money, and money saved is not put towards another future project. This is almost like one of those Green commercials :-) I wish I had known you wanted a picture, I could have provided one much sooner.

Thanks

Charlie

[Loach Driver]

Are there any updates on what version of the Kiowa the U.S, Army is going to field in the next few years?

As I understand it, the OH58F ( http://www.scoutsout.com/next-generation/oh-58f/ ) is an Army upgrade programme that will go ahead as an interim upgrade until a new scout helicopter is procured. Is the OH-58D going to be converted into the "F" during deep maintenance?

Also, does anyone know what happened to the ARH-70A prototypes? Four ships (N45515 (No.1), N44548 (No.2), N445AR (No.3) and N445HR (No.4) ) were built with No.4 being written-off during the flight test programme. Did the Army Museum get one or did Bell retain the three remaining airframes? I would have thought that the helicopters would have become government property after the programme was cancelled, given that they were funded by the Army.

LD.

[hawkwrench]

I don't know much about 58's, but wasn't the intent of the MMD to be able to scan the battlefield for hostiles while the airframe stayed hidden behind something. If they go to a chin mounted device, that to me is not an upgrade, but is a reason for another aircraft to be downed unless its being based on a straight line terrain battlefield (no masking capability) due to a lack of foilage.

Edited March 7, 2013 by hawkwrench

[AH6C-SIP]

Wayne Mutza sent me a pic of her today:

Here's the included text:

"Bell Helicopter’s OH-58 Block II successfully completes first flight

FORT WORTH, TEXAS (April 18, 2011) – Bell Helicopter, a Textron Inc. company (NYSE: TXT) announces the first flight of its OH-58 Block II demonstrator at its Xworx research and development facility in Fort Worth, Texas on April 14, 2011.

“The flight was flawless and completed according to plan,†said Cathy Ferrie, Director of Bell Helicopter’s Xworx facility. “The Block II is a significant leap forward in performance for the Kiowa Warrior platform and will absolutely make this a 21st Century airframe for the 21st Century soldier.â€

Bell Helicopter is developing this OH-58 Block II fleet representative demonstrator to facilitate prototyping activities in anticipation of a U.S. Army future requirement of 6K/95 performance. The Block II OH-58 provides an attractive, cost efficient alternative for the U.S. Army and U.S. taxpayer, and will demonstrate Bell helicopter’s ability to meet or exceed all performance requirements for the Army’s Armed Aerial Scout. Bell Helicopter is developing this aircraft with its own resources and at no cost to the government.

The Block II demonstrator takes an OH-58 Kiowa Warrior and makes it a fast fielding, low risk and lowest cost solution to achieve 6,000ft and 95 degree performance. The “high-hot†performance can be attained with propulsion and drive training upgrades to the existing platform. This upgrade program builds upon the F model Cockpit and Sensor Upgrade Program (CASUP) improvements by adding a new engine, transmission and rotor system.

“By continuing to upgrade the OH-58F into a Block II program, the Army will save money that they can invest in future technologies or future platforms,†said Stephen Eppinette, Army business development manager. “It will also give the Army and the tax payer a return for the money invested in the F model program.â€

Along with the performance upgrades, the Block II will adopt fully integrated condition-based maintenance (CBM) technologies so that the aircraft will have higher performance, increased safety, and greater operational readiness while reducing life-cycle costs.

With more than 750,000 fleet combat hours, the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior is a combat- proven aircraft that is safe, rugged and reliable, maintaining the highest readiness rate of any Army helicopter operating in Afghanistan while simultaneously having the highest operational tempo."

I must say that CASUP sounds too much like Catchup as in Bell is trying to "catchup" to the MD 500 series as the supreme scout helicopter. I love Bell and the Huey in particular, but I can't believe that a variant of one of the worst helicopters ever fielded (ie OH-58A) is still in service with the Army, but the Huey, which is without a doubt one of the most successful rotorcraft in history, isn't good enough for them anymore. It's just weird.

Ray

I agree Ray, from my perspective and experience... I was an SIP in both the A and C models, and flew the armed version of the JOH-58 (OH-8 I think they called it)that we recieved at the same time we got the first six guns. For NVG flight they are awful. Doesn't make a difference if it was rounded or flat canopy. And you can forget a speedy upload or download. Bell had hits with the Huey and the Cobra, but it must be politics that keep the Army going back to the '58...Junk.

GT

[AH6C-SIP]

Wayne Mutza sent me a pic of her today:

Here's the included text:

"Bell Helicopter’s OH-58 Block II successfully completes first flight

FORT WORTH, TEXAS (April 18, 2011) – Bell Helicopter, a Textron Inc. company (NYSE: TXT) announces the first flight of its OH-58 Block II demonstrator at its Xworx research and development facility in Fort Worth, Texas on April 14, 2011.

“The flight was flawless and completed according to plan,†said Cathy Ferrie, Director of Bell Helicopter’s Xworx facility. “The Block II is a significant leap forward in performance for the Kiowa Warrior platform and will absolutely make this a 21st Century airframe for the 21st Century soldier.â€

Bell Helicopter is developing this OH-58 Block II fleet representative demonstrator to facilitate prototyping activities in anticipation of a U.S. Army future requirement of 6K/95 performance. The Block II OH-58 provides an attractive, cost efficient alternative for the U.S. Army and U.S. taxpayer, and will demonstrate Bell helicopter’s ability to meet or exceed all performance requirements for the Army’s Armed Aerial Scout. Bell Helicopter is developing this aircraft with its own resources and at no cost to the government.

The Block II demonstrator takes an OH-58 Kiowa Warrior and makes it a fast fielding, low risk and lowest cost solution to achieve 6,000ft and 95 degree performance. The “high-hot†performance can be attained with propulsion and drive training upgrades to the existing platform. This upgrade program builds upon the F model Cockpit and Sensor Upgrade Program (CASUP) improvements by adding a new engine, transmission and rotor system.

“By continuing to upgrade the OH-58F into a Block II program, the Army will save money that they can invest in future technologies or future platforms,†said Stephen Eppinette, Army business development manager. “It will also give the Army and the tax payer a return for the money invested in the F model program.â€

Along with the performance upgrades, the Block II will adopt fully integrated condition-based maintenance (CBM) technologies so that the aircraft will have higher performance, increased safety, and greater operational readiness while reducing life-cycle costs.

With more than 750,000 fleet combat hours, the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior is a combat- proven aircraft that is safe, rugged and reliable, maintaining the highest readiness rate of any Army helicopter operating in Afghanistan while simultaneously having the highest operational tempo."

I must say that CASUP sounds too much like Catchup as in Bell is trying to "catchup" to the MD 500 series as the supreme scout helicopter. I love Bell and the Huey in particular, but I can't believe that a variant of one of the worst helicopters ever fielded (ie OH-58A) is still in service with the Army, but the Huey, which is without a doubt one of the most successful rotorcraft in history, isn't good enough for them anymore. It's just weird.

Ray

I agree Ray, from my perspective and experience... I was an SIP in both the A and C models, and flew the armed version of the JOH-58 (OH-8 I think they called it)that we recieved at the same time we got the first six guns. For NVG flight they are awful. Doesn't make a difference if it was rounded or flat canopy. And you can forget a speedy upload or download. Bell had hits with the Huey and the Cobra, but it must be politics that keep the Army going back to the '58...Junk.

GT

[AH6C-SIP]

Wayne Mutza sent me a pic of her today:

Here's the included text:

"Bell Helicopter’s OH-58 Block II successfully completes first flight

FORT WORTH, TEXAS (April 18, 2011) – Bell Helicopter, a Textron Inc. company (NYSE: TXT) announces the first flight of its OH-58 Block II demonstrator at its Xworx research and development facility in Fort Worth, Texas on April 14, 2011.

“The flight was flawless and completed according to plan,†said Cathy Ferrie, Director of Bell Helicopter’s Xworx facility. “The Block II is a significant leap forward in performance for the Kiowa Warrior platform and will absolutely make this a 21st Century airframe for the 21st Century soldier.â€

Bell Helicopter is developing this OH-58 Block II fleet representative demonstrator to facilitate prototyping activities in anticipation of a U.S. Army future requirement of 6K/95 performance. The Block II OH-58 provides an attractive, cost efficient alternative for the U.S. Army and U.S. taxpayer, and will demonstrate Bell helicopter’s ability to meet or exceed all performance requirements for the Army’s Armed Aerial Scout. Bell Helicopter is developing this aircraft with its own resources and at no cost to the government.

The Block II demonstrator takes an OH-58 Kiowa Warrior and makes it a fast fielding, low risk and lowest cost solution to achieve 6,000ft and 95 degree performance. The “high-hot†performance can be attained with propulsion and drive training upgrades to the existing platform. This upgrade program builds upon the F model Cockpit and Sensor Upgrade Program (CASUP) improvements by adding a new engine, transmission and rotor system.

“By continuing to upgrade the OH-58F into a Block II program, the Army will save money that they can invest in future technologies or future platforms,†said Stephen Eppinette, Army business development manager. “It will also give the Army and the tax payer a return for the money invested in the F model program.â€

Along with the performance upgrades, the Block II will adopt fully integrated condition-based maintenance (CBM) technologies so that the aircraft will have higher performance, increased safety, and greater operational readiness while reducing life-cycle costs.

With more than 750,000 fleet combat hours, the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior is a combat- proven aircraft that is safe, rugged and reliable, maintaining the highest readiness rate of any Army helicopter operating in Afghanistan while simultaneously having the highest operational tempo."

I must say that CASUP sounds too much like Catchup as in Bell is trying to "catchup" to the MD 500 series as the supreme scout helicopter. I love Bell and the Huey in particular, but I can't believe that a variant of one of the worst helicopters ever fielded (ie OH-58A) is still in service with the Army, but the Huey, which is without a doubt one of the most successful rotorcraft in history, isn't good enough for them anymore. It's just weird.

Ray

I agree Ray, from my perspective and experience... I was an SIP in both the A and C models, and flew the armed version of the JOH-58 (OH-8 I think they called it)that we recieved at the same time we got the first six guns. For NVG flight they are awful. Doesn't make a difference if it was rounded or flat canopy. And you can forget a speedy upload or download. Bell had hits with the Huey and the Cobra, but it must be politics that keep the Army going back to the '58...Junk.

GT

[FM-Whip]

I agree Ray, from my perspective and experience... I was an SIP in both the A and C models, and flew the armed version of the JOH-58 (OH-8 I think they called it)that we recieved at the same time we got the first six guns. For NVG flight they are awful. Doesn't make a difference if it was rounded or flat canopy. And you can forget a speedy upload or download. Bell had hits with the Huey and the Cobra, but it must be politics that keep the Army going back to the '58...Junk.

GT

If the FLIRs slung under the noses of those aircraft get any bigger, they'll need another engine...

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[Loach Driver]

It looks like the first flight of the OH-58F CASUP prototype will take place next month. There is a small gallery of photos in the second link with one good photo of the antenna layout for the entire airframe.

http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/ausa-2012-us-army-takes-delivery-first-oh-58f/

http://www.stripes.com/news/army-s-kiowa-warrior-helos-undergoing-sensor-upgrades-1.202354#

Is the FLIR sensor on this helicopter available in any of the UAV kits currently on the market? It looks like it isn't the hardest subject to convert from one of the existing OH-58D kits. The skids need to be raised and the engine bay has to modified but other than that, it looks build-able. Certainly easier than attempting the OH-58D Block II or the ARH-70A Arapaho. Hopefully the prototype will get an air data boom, some day-glow panels and high-viz markings for its maiden flight.

LD.

[rotorwash]

Are there any updates on what version of the Kiowa the U.S, Army is going to field in the next few years?

As I understand it, the OH58F ( http://www.scoutsout.com/next-generation/oh-58f/ ) is an Army upgrade programme that will go ahead as an interim upgrade until a new scout helicopter is procured. Is the OH-58D going to be converted into the "F" during deep maintenance?

Also, does anyone know what happened to the ARH-70A prototypes? Four ships (N45515 (No.1), N44548 (No.2), N445AR (No.3) and N445HR (No.4) ) were built with No.4 being written-off during the flight test programme. Did the Army Museum get one or did Bell retain the three remaining airframes? I would have thought that the helicopters would have become government property after the programme was cancelled, given that they were funded by the Army.

LD.

One is on a pole at Redstone according to my sister in law who works on the laser targeting systems for the new "CASUP" OH-58F upgrades. I wish the Army would just field a regular Army MH-6 variant and be done with it. As much as I like Bell, the 58's time has come and gone I think.

Ray

[torchf4]

Correct me if I'm wrong but in a nutshell:

The OH-58F is an interim upgrade of the -D with new displays and a nose sensor plus some minor stuff. The Block II is essentially the -58F with new engine, rotors and transmission?

So basically 2 upgrades that could and should have been combined into a simple package being sold seperately for max profits and the army still might go for it??? Talk about flogging the dead horse twice!

Not to mention the fact that the AH-6i will still fly circles around it, has all the necessary improvements already and is available yesterday!

Smart way to spend the taxpayers money!

[Phoinix]

I don't know much about 58's, but wasn't the intent of the MMD to be able to scan the battlefield for hostiles while the airframe stayed hidden behind something. If they go to a chin mounted device, that to me is not an upgrade, but is a reason for another aircraft to be downed unless its being based on a straight line terrain battlefield (no masking capability) due to a lack of foilage.

Typical missions for the Kiowas in recent years have involved hovering over urban environments and trying to spot insurgents hiding on streets and in buildings. In those situations, a top-mounted sensor isn’t ideal because the aircraft’s fuselage blocks much of what its cameras are trying to focus on directly below, Hannah said.

Moving the sensor to the aircraft’s nose, which is where police helicopters typically carry cameras, makes sense, although it requires longer landing gear, he said.

[hawkwrench]

I think your trying to compare apples to oranges. LE helos operate under relative air safety with regard to survivability, military helos such as the 58's whose job is scouting for the enemy are always under threat for shoot down need that ability to hunt the enemy while hiding behind cover. Hence the use of the MMD!

[strikeeagle801]

I think your trying to compare apples to oranges. LE helos operate under relative air safety with regard to survivability, military helos such as the 58's whose job is scouting for the enemy are always under threat for shoot down need that ability to hunt the enemy while hiding behind cover. Hence the use of the MMD!

Not really apples to oranges though. The point (according to the article) of the FLIR in the nose is that they are operating in more urban areas where they need to look down/underneath them...Just like a police helo does. In the areas they are operating in, there are no hills and trees to hide behind as there would have been in Europe/USSR...The original operation area they had in mind when they mounted the MMS in the first place.

Now really, I believe this is another case of cart before horse, and thinking the next war will be just like the last. Just because the conflicts of today (and possibly tomorrow) are urban/desert enviornments, does not mean the next one will be. I've never been there, but the pictures I've seen of Korea look to be pretty heavily forested and hilly, and with the North acting up, who knows what is going to happen there?

I guess if I had my choice, (and the AH-6 was not an option) I'd suggest giving the Kiowas the engine/transmission and cockpit upgrades, and then adding the FLIR to roughly half of the KW's, leaving the other half with the MMD mount. That way, you have either situation covered. The point of the MMD was indeed to keep the helo hidden against threats, and I'd hate to think that by moving all of the sensors to the nose, that we would be putting future crews at risk.

"Remember when they used to have that big ball sensor thingy above the rotor?"

"Yeah"

"I wish we had that about now"

Aaron

Edited March 8, 2013 by strikeeagle801

[Loach Driver]

Yep, it's hard to know what the next big conflict will bring, as regards requirements from the Army's scout helicopters. The OH-58F Block II with the option to retain the Mast-Mounted Sight might be a good option for the AAS competition, but it shouldn't really be regarded as a "new" scout helicopter for the Army, it is still just an interim, upgraded Kiowa.

The AH-6 is certainly a strong contender but the AH-6S Phoenix might have been an even better option if Boeing had pursued development of this long-fuselage AH-6. Range might be the limiting factor for the H-6, but given that it is already interoperable with the AH-64E Apache it should still be a strong contender for the AAS contract. I'm not sure the AAS-72X is in the running. It is hard to see an EMS helicopter as a scout helicopter.

I think the Army will abandon the Armed Aerial Scout competition and go with an interim Kiowa upgrade and wait until the Sikorsky S-97 Raider is a more mature airframe. Then they'll run a new scout competition in around 2020-25 and give the contract to Sikorsky.

LD.

[hawkwrench]

That's the problem with the so called you-know whos in Washington. They always think horizontal and everything with be the same just like it was before, but yes, not all battles are the same nor is every countryside built the same. Those words unfortunately could become prophetic in nature for some aircrews.

Edited March 8, 2013 by hawkwrench

[EDWMatt]

Correct me if I'm wrong but in a nutshell:

The OH-58F is an interim upgrade of the -D with new displays and a nose sensor plus some minor stuff. The Block II is essentially the -58F with new engine, rotors and transmission?

So basically 2 upgrades that could and should have been combined into a simple package being sold seperately for max profits and the army still might go for it??? Talk about flogging the dead horse twice! :deadhorse1:/>

Not to mention the fact that the AH-6i will still fly circles around it, has all the necessary improvements already and is available yesterday!

Smart way to spend the taxpayers money!

Nothing new here. Back when I was in the flight test business, we used to joke that Bell made a profit twice on each helicopter - once when they sold it to the Army and again when they sold the package of fixes to make it perform the way it was originally intended to ;)

[FM-Whip]

Not to mention the fact that the AH-6i will still fly circles around it, has all the necessary improvements already and is available yesterday!

Smart way to spend the taxpayers money!

But with the AH-6i, you still have an under-nose sensor....

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[SteveV22FE]

Nothing new here. Back when I was in the flight test business, we used to joke that Bell made a profit twice on each helicopter - once when they sold it to the Army and again when they sold the package of fixes to make it perform the way it was originally intended to ;)/>

That's no joke...that's the way Bell does business!

[rotorwash]

That's no joke...that's the way Bell does business!

Course you could just do like Eurocopter and double bill em the first time. 6.9 million for one of those crappy little 72's seems a bit much to me!

Ray

[11bee]

Course you could just do like Eurocopter and double bill em the first time. 6.9 million for one of those crappy little 72's seems a bit much to me!

Ray

Read somewhere recently that the Army is now looking to purchase an "improved" UH-72B model. Maybe this one would actually be capable of being deployed to a combat zone.

[Loach Driver]

Here are two interesting articles on the Armed Aerial Scout contenders;

http://www.blueskyrotor.com/blog/2012/10/armed-scout-competition-performance/

http://www.blueskyrotor.com/blog/2012/10/armed-scout-competition-cockpits/

The first link, leading to the blog on performance, is interesting. It comes to a conclusion that might surprise a few. It certainly caught me off-guard! Can Floyd and any other professional pilots here cast an eye over this article and let us know what you think. Is the Eurocopter AAS-72X actually one of the front runners, if this competition does go ahead soon?

LD.