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kiowafixer

1/350 P/L TOS Enterprise

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Great Looking Refit Phantom and thanks for the info on the strength, it that your on lighting design for it or is it someone's lighting kit? I have seen that internal metal support for that kit over at CultTVman and have been debating buying it, but now I would have to consider how it may interfere with the Trek Modeler lighting kit I am installing.

Well back to the TOS Enterprise topic at hand. I have decided to to go with the 2nd pilot version and have been filling secondary hull windows for a few hours now. To do that I have been installing the white opaque windows and filling in the resulting small gaps to eliminate the windows that don't need to be there according to the directions. Which brings one of the first things I don't like about the kit, there doesn't seem to be much of a contrast between the opaque white windows and the surrounding grey plastic once you install them. The smoke grey ones look really good when installed and eventhough I am not putting the lighting kit in this version I did try the clear ones and they looked ok by themselves but really popped when I put some foil behind them, haven't tried silver paint on the back of them to see if I get the same result. Now, the more I look, I think that Aircraft Grey all the way to the right might look a little better then the Gull Grey when compared to the interwebz image you posted Paul, I think that is the new digital version of the TOS Enterprise from the redone TOS on DVD and Blu-Ray now.

KiowaFixer

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It was my own lighting. Just bulbs ran on wires from a computer/electronic store. Run throughout the ship down the neck and down the base wear the battery is.

Go back to the Enterprise group build and you can find it.

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=196858

Edited by phantom

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Great Looking Refit Phantom and thanks for the info on the strength, it that your on lighting design for it or is it someone's lighting kit? I have seen that internal metal support for that kit over at CultTVman and have been debating buying it, but now I would have to consider how it may interfere with the Trek Modeler lighting kit I am installing.

Well back to the TOS Enterprise topic at hand. I have decided to to go with the 2nd pilot version and have been filling secondary hull windows for a few hours now. To do that I have been installing the white opaque windows and filling in the resulting small gaps to eliminate the windows that don't need to be there according to the directions. Which brings one of the first things I don't like about the kit, there doesn't seem to be much of a contrast between the opaque white windows and the surrounding grey plastic once you install them. The smoke grey ones look really good when installed and eventhough I am not putting the lighting kit in this version I did try the clear ones and they looked ok by themselves but really popped when I put some foil behind them, haven't tried silver paint on the back of them to see if I get the same result. Now, the more I look, I think that Aircraft Grey all the way to the right might look a little better then the Gull Grey when compared to the interwebz image you posted Paul, I think that is the new digital version of the TOS Enterprise from the redone TOS on DVD and Blu-Ray now.

KiowaFixer

I think you might be right. I'm going to spray one engine nacelle Flat Gull Grey, and the other Aircraft Grey and then hold them to the hull parts to compare colors. At work this week so I'm slowed down a little.

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Oh gawd, I didn't see that before. The AMT grid work has been reincarnated again, even after AMT got their act together and eliminated it on their old kit. That will be a PITA to fix.

They are there on the production version of the "real" ship, just penciled in very lightly. Round 2 hemmed and hawed over including this feature as it is somewhat controversial. They decided to include them for accuracy figuring that the modeler could fill them in easily enough if they so chose. There are also other things that are there that were never on the 11 ft studio model, but were in the design, or intended to be, or as later "freshened up" Examples are the blinking white nav lights on either side of the shuttle bay, and the lengthwise interior lighted engines. Round 2 did not intend to be 100% faithful to the 11 footer. The wanted the optimum Enterprise... the way it was intended to be or would have been if the show had an appropriate budget. I for one am extremely thankful that Round 2 has stepped up to the plate and done what they have done with Star Trek modeling. They have re-invigorated it with a passion, and now having given us what we want, are expecting us to follow through with our purchases. This new Enterprise kit had to be extremely expensive to produce, especially with the work they had to do with the lighting, PE, extra parts, decals, etc.

It truly is the Holy Grail of Science Fiction modeling.

Edited by DutyCat

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IMG_1634.jpg

From left to right we have Gunship grey, Neutral grey, Dark Ghost grey, Primer, Flat Gull grey, and Aircraft Grey. Personally, I think it's Flat Gull grey that gets the nod. I have to spray a gloss coat over it for the decal application then another dull coat to get it flat again. What do you guys think?

I think Aircraft Grey is your closest match there. However, that color is a gloss. I would not dream of trying to spray a kit of this size with a gloss enamel. Testors makes a flat light aircraft gray in a rattle can. No FS number is listed on the can, so I don't know if it is the same. Their rattle cans do not spray very well, so I would decant it first if I used it. The USAF/USN colors that you have there are mostly too blue or too dark. Light Gull Gray is not quite right, either.

Edited by DutyCat

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I think Aircraft Grey is your closest match there. However, that color is a gloss. I would not dream of trying to spray a kit of this size with a gloss enamel. Testors makes a flat light aircraft gray in a rattle can. No FS number is listed on the can, so I don't know if it is the same. Their rattle cans do not spray very well, so I would decant it first if I used it. The USAF/USN colors that you have there are mostly too blue or too dark. Light Gull Gray is not quite right, either.

Just out of curiosity, why would you not want to use a gloss color out of a rattle can on a model of this size? Broken down into components, this is not any bigger than a 1/32nd F-15. What problems/issues do you forsee. I'm trying to gather as much info as I can. I've always had great sucess using testors rattle cans. But, I'm certainly willing to listen to any ideas. I really want this kit to turn out well.

Paul

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Gloss enamel rattlecan finishes in my experience (and presumably with Dutycat as well) have this annoying habit of taking far too long to dry and still being tacky even when you THINK they are fully dry and cured (resulting in an ugly fingerprint). Plus, Testors spraycans tend to have one of the least sophisticated nozzle designs out there which seem to contribute to orange peel unless you spray then JUST right (and for a model as big as this, figure two cans at a MINIMUM if you do a three pass spray method).

As a result, if I have to resort to using a spraycan, I typically stick with Tamiya lacquers as they dry rock hard VERY fast. But I don't know if Tamiya does an Aircraft Gray shade and even if they do, it might not match Testors exactly unless it is an FS shade.

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Just out of curiosity, why would you not want to use a gloss color out of a rattle can on a model of this size? Broken down into components, this is not any bigger than a 1/32nd F-15. What problems/issues do you forsee. I'm trying to gather as much info as I can. I've always had great sucess using testors rattle cans. But, I'm certainly willing to listen to any ideas. I really want this kit to turn out well.

Paul

In my experience, Testors gloss enamel will spray on thick and not "glass" smooth. I don't have any recent experience with Testor's flat out of a rattlecan, so that might work fine.

Personally, except for Tamiya lacquers, I rarely use spray cans. I almost always use a flat paint out of an airbrush, then gloss for decals. If it is a gloss, like on a car, I am willing to spray a lacquer rattlecan. However, if it is a Testors gloss enamel rattlecan, I will decant.

I might at some point try Rust-O-Leum or Krylon rattlecans, as I have heard good things about them. Whatever you decide to do, test first. If you are getting the results you want, go for it!

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Thanks Guys,

I think, since I now have the ship in four big pieces, that I'll paint one engine/pylon Aircraft Grey, the other Flat Gull Grey, the secondary Hull/Sail will get a shot of Flat Aircraft Gray if I can find any, and then the Primary Hull will be the control to see what matches. I'll post photos. I agree about the gloss. Flat is much eaiser and more forgiving to spray than a gloss is, I just go slow and allow 48 hours or more between coats if I'm using gloss enamel on anything. One more point; I used some of the white windows and some of the black windows. I think I'm just going to shoot over them and then go back and use white and black paint. They really don't show up well against the grey of the hull.

Wish me Luck

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Thanks Guys,

I think, since I now have the ship in four big pieces, that I'll paint one engine/pylon Aircraft Grey, the other Flat Gull Grey, the secondary Hull/Sail will get a shot of Flat Aircraft Gray if I can find any, and then the Primary Hull will be the control to see what matches. I'll post photos. I agree about the gloss. Flat is much eaiser and more forgiving to spray than a gloss is, I just go slow and allow 48 hours or more between coats if I'm using gloss enamel on anything. One more point; I used some of the white windows and some of the black windows. I think I'm just going to shoot over them and then go back and use white and black paint. They really don't show up well against the grey of the hull.

Wish me Luck

Gawd, Paul, please be careful and please test on some scrap if you have any doubt. This thing is expensive and THE Holy Grail of Science Fiction models. I have been waiting for it my whole life. I built the original 18 inch AMT kits several times in the 1960s, complete with clear green saucer domes and grain of wheat lights.

BTW, mine should be arriving in the mail on Monday. I will be waiting for the accessory kit before I touch it.

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Gawd, Paul, please be careful and please test on some scrap if you have any doubt. This thing is expensive and THE Holy Grail of Science Fiction models. I have been waiting for it my whole life. I built the original 18 inch AMT kits several times in the 1960s, complete with clear green saucer domes and grain of wheat lights.

BTW, mine should be arriving in the mail on Monday. I will be waiting for the accessory kit before I touch it.

Back about 1970 or so, when I was about ten, (I'm 52 now), a friends older brother got a model of the Enterprise that was huge and it came with a lighting kit. I've never been able to find any kind of reference to that kit since then, but lord did I want one. I remember watching the original series when I was six and crying when the series was cancelled when I was nine. I had to get special permission from my parents to stay up to watch it during the third season because it was on so late on Friday nights. Needless to say, I was also a space geek. I watched all of the Apollo missions on tv and followed them through the papers. I still have the original LIFE magazine reporting on Apollo 11. This kit is VERY important to me. I've got several 18 inch kits under my belt as well. And a few of the 22 inch cutaways. Rest assured, I aim to do it justice.

Edited by Paul Mullins

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Outstanding. We are the same age. I also remember watching the original series. I even have an elementary school picture of me wearing a bright blue turtle neck shirt and hair cut in bangs. I will find it and post it someday.

Unfortunately, the original Star Trek was ahead of its time, and the average person STILL can't appreciate Trek, even today.

It's folks like us....the smart baby boomers with decent disposable incomes who grew up surrounded and heavily influenced by the pioneer vision of space exploration represented by Trek, Gemini and Apollo, movies like 2001, and the early days of the Space Shuttle, are keeping traditional Trek going. We are in our prime as far as funding the production of "home entertainment" based Trek and other space stuff..... to wit the Blu Ray remasters, all of Round 2's efforts, and Dragon's recent releases. If there were a new series, I think it would work, as everyone would remember what happened with Enterprise and not let it happen again. We would all support it and keep it afloat as our last hurrah. Unfortunately, it probably won't happen as there are less risky ways to make money with TV. Star Trek is an expensive show to make in any iteration, and the bar has been set high in terms of expectations of canon and overall quality. Young folks would not watch it. I also don't know if there are any current active writers out there who know it well enough, appreciate it, and have the love for it that we do as traditional fans. The JJ Abrams movie is an example of the direction they are trying to go.....a sell out to more Star Wars style production values. Although the 2009 movie itself was fun enough on its own, except for the setting and overall structure....it really was not Trek as it has been established over 28 years of television programming and ten movies. Most traditional Trek fans would have vetoed almost everything about the Abrams Trek script. He has even admitted he was not a Trek fan growing up. He was a Star Wars fan. They handed him the reigns of the franchise for a reason.....they wanted to move in that direction....a financial decision. Although watchable, Abrams Trek really aims to capture and invest in the attention of a much younger demographic than us..the folks that actually pay to go to movies regularly...the 18-35 year olds. We will shortly be aging out of relevance.

With traditional Trek, we are extremely fortunate to have gotten what we have. It could have come to nothing more than than original series three year run. We would not let it die, so instead we got a lot more. I am thankful for what we have and will treasure it.

Edited by DutyCat

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They are there on the production version of the "real" ship, just penciled in very lightly.

Those grid lines were added to the Enterprise in the Air and Space Museum long after the series ended, and long after it first went on display there. They were a copy of the AMT kit. They are totally apocryphal to the series. In fact, when an AMT kit was used on screen as the USS Constellation in the episode Doomsday Machine, those grid lines had been removed. So what Polar Lights has made, with those grid lines, is a model of a model of a model.

Its actually amazing the influence that AMT kit has had our perception of the Enterprise. The grid lines, as well as the shape of the bridge, B and C decks, was copied in the Star Trek Technical Manual and published blueprints, the Air and Space Museum copied the grid lines onto the real Enterprise, and now they are on the Polar Lights kit.

Round 2 did not intend to be 100% faithful to the 11 footer. The wanted the optimum Enterprise... the way it was intended to be or would have been if the show had an appropriate budget.
In my mind, the true Enterprise was what I saw on the tv screen.
I for one am extremely thankful that Round 2 has stepped up to the plate and done what they have done with Star Trek modeling. They have re-invigorated it with a passion, and now having given us what we want, are expecting us to follow through with our purchases. This new Enterprise kit had to be extremely expensive to produce, especially with the work they had to do with the lighting, PE, extra parts, decals, etc.

It truly is the Holy Grail of Science Fiction modeling.

I will be worshiping mine when I build it. Edited by Rocky

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I have the entire TOS series on DVD. It's the remastered set. I have to say that I really like the remastered version of the Enterprise. The detail that they've been able to add to the ship really makes it stand out. This is the version of what I personally believe that R2 did with this kit. You can see it in the decals they've added that go on the forward underside of the Main Engines. I've been watching the series again to get references on the ship. With the film cleaned up, the sound re-done, and all of the effects shots redone, the shows flow much better. It's kind of like watching directors cuts of movies. You get a better version of the show. IMHO.

I appreciate the folks who like only the original filmed version of the ship. But from the research I've done, it appears that the reds were much deeper and the colors off because of the film processing that was done to get to what we see on the tv screen. Yes, the 11 foot filming miniature in the NASM has been changed, but I personally believe that it's been changed for the better. I DO NOT want to start a firefight over what colors should be used, or over what should and should not have been done. I think there's room here for everyone's opinion, and they are all valid and relevant points. I personally have been in love with this ship for as long as I can remember there was a Star Trek. I'm deliriously happy to FINALLY have one in this scale. It's building beautifully, and I may just have to order another one and a light kit to go with it. My hat is off to Round 2 and I deeply deeply appreciate the effort and expense it took to deliver this kit.

Live Long and Prosper.

Edited by Paul Mullins

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Those grid lines were added to the Enterprise in the Air and Space Museum long after the series ended, and long after it first went on display there.

Not quite true. The over-weathered grid was added when the ship was in the Smithsonian, but a lightly drawn on pencil grid was actually on the ship when Trek was in production. You can see some slight evidence of it even going back to "The Cage" when they do the tight saucer pan in to the bridge. I've also got some black and white stills printed in my copy of "The Making of Star Trek" paperback which showed the grid being carried down the edges of the saucer on the production version of the ship, but I haven't found anything for the bottom of the saucer necessarily. NASM did its first repaint in spots circa the late 1970s. But even with that, the saucer top was kept original. So that top of saucer grid should go back all the way to production since the Smithsonian did NOT add it. It doesn't read well in photos though because it is indeed lightly penciled on and the saucer on the 11 footer is easily over four feet in diameter.

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Not quite true. The over-weathered grid was added when the ship was in the Smithsonian, but a lightly drawn on pencil grid was actually on the ship when Trek was in production.

Here is a shot from the series:

Enterprise27.png

I don't see any gridwork.

You can see some slight evidence of it even going back to "The Cage" when they do the tight saucer pan in to the bridge.
This is that shot:

USSEnterpriseTheCage01.jpg

I don't see any lines, but its dark, so I enhanced the image:

USSEnterpriseTheCage01e.jpg

I still don't see any lines.

I've also got some black and white stills printed in my copy of "The Making of Star Trek" paperback which showed the grid being carried down the edges of the saucer on the production version of the ship,
I have that book. I'm looking at the pictures. I don't see any lines there either.

Percival Lowell saw canals on Mars... Perhaps the Enterprise gridwork is an irrigation system. ;)

but I haven't found anything for the bottom of the saucer necessarily.

I see lines there! They are concentric circles.

Edited by Rocky

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Is that first shot from the film transfered to DVD or the remastered version from a few years ago?

All the pictures were screenshots of Youtube video of the origional version. None of them are from the remastered series. At one time, you could watch full episodes on Youtube. It has been an outstanding resource for images of the Enterprise. Its hard to catch details just by watching episodes. By looking at stills, I can identify color differences in the components of the main dish, and so forth.

The remastered Enterprise does have a subtle aztecing pattern with grid lines. That could be what Jay saw. One could build an Enterprise model of the remastered CGI Enterprise. The remastered Enterprise also has a darker looking finish than the origional. Mine will represent a late season film version - the final version of the 11 foot model.

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Is that first shot from the film transfered to DVD or the remastered version from a few years ago?

Those are original shots. That's why I asked if the grid lines were going to be filled in. The original model never had any.

Below is an image of the remastered Enterprise. The difference is striking. Not only in the visual clarity of the image, but also, the primary hull is shown to be made up of panels. Some of them are raised. (see under the word ENTERPRISE)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XNPD380IpBQ/SJYzP2B4PUI/AAAAAAAACAU/5f_HMd4Jh_s/s1600/P60_22_operationannihilate.jpg

Edited by RiderFan

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When we build a 1/72 scale, or 1/48 scale model aircraft, even the finest engraved panel lines are overdone. At 1/350 scale, any panel line would be completely invisible. Are there panel lines on 1/350 scale ship models? The remastered Enterprise may have been more interesting visually, but visible panel lines on a 947 foot starship suggest the crudest technology, with the lowest manufacturing standards imaginable. The Mayans built stone walls with finer seams than the remastered Enterprise.

Edited by Rocky

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Here is a shot from the series:

I don't see any lines, but its dark, so I enhanced the image:

USSEnterpriseTheCage01e.jpg

I still don't see any lines.

I'm am not trying to "stir the pot" as they say BUT in this image you posted there are definately hinted lines present. Granted it's not the perfect tight grid like the kits show and definately not engraved but I can make out at least two distinct lines (not engraved, just weathered as if with a pencil); one starting up above the two windows going up splitting the "N" and cutting diagnally splitting the "U" and the "S". The other one that is somewhat apparent is along down the very front of the saucer, immediately left of the "-" (right in the pic). I'd say that's enough evidence with "film to television to whatever source they used to post to youtube" conversions to at least say there might have been a thin pencil grid drawn on. My two cents.

I'd love to get this kit but yikes, size and money...not sure I could pass that one by my wife.

Bill

Edited by niart17

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I'm am not trying to "stir the pot" as they say BUT in this image you posted there are definately hinted lines present. Granted it's not the perfect tight grid like the kits show and definately not engraved but I can make out at least two distinct lines (not engraved, just weathered as if with a pencil); one starting up above the two windows going up splitting the "N" and cutting diagnally splitting the "U" and the "S". The other one that is somewhat apparent is along down the very front of the saucer, immediately left of the "-" (right in the pic). I'd say that's enough evidence with "film to television to whatever source they used to post to youtube" conversions to at least say there might have been a thin pencil grid drawn on. My two cents.

I'd love to get this kit but yikes, size and money...not sure I could pass that one by my wife.

Bill

I see what you see, but that is a broad streak, several inches wide on the 11 foot model. "Weathering" was added to that model during the series, and I think that may be an example of that. Polar Lights has some "weathering" decals for the kit that are straeks like that.

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I just found a website with a series of high resolution color photographs of the 11 foot model taken around the time the pilots and series were filmed, along with a comentary describing the changes that were made over time. I knew such photos had to exist somewhere!

http://startrekhistory.com/models.html

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When we build a 1/72 scale, or 1/48 scale model aircraft, even the finest engraved panel lines are overdone. At 1/350 scale, any panel line would be completely invisible. Are there panel lines on 1/350 scale ship models? The remastered Enterprise may have been more interesting visually, but visible panel lines on a 947 foot starship suggest the crudest technology, with the lowest manufacturing standards imaginable. The Mayans built stone walls with finer seams than the remastered Enterprise.

I agree that if the grid lines were in fact there on the original 11 footer, they were very faint or else we would not be having this debate.

However, to be clear, my understanding is that the grid lines are speculated to be shield grid energy projectors, not regular construction panel lines. If this is the case, visible grid lines might be appropriate. That is just what I have heard mentioned...not claiming it is canon or anything. Or, if you don't like that answer, they could be part of the warp drive system, projecting an electromagnetic field to insulate the ship somehow from warp effects...or make it part of them....or, the panels could be expansion joints to enable the ship to cope with the huge thermal variations it might experience in space. Take your pick. Clearly there was some thought given to grid lines in the design for whatever reason. There are indications that the original producers wanted to do a little more to enhance the visual effect of the model, but just did not have it in the budget, or maybe they ran out of time or were pressed with other aspects of the show's production. I also think that given the increased complexity of the model ships that came in later Trek series that there was an attempt in the remastered version to try to dress up the look of the ship to be more consistent with the general appearance of the later Trek ships. Additionally, it has been suggested, "This is an interpretation of what they would likely have done with an appropriate budget." Maybe so. Maybe not. Maybe it is exactly as it was intended. Maybe the later shows just made the ships look busier because they had the time and budget to do so..or were influenced by the generally busy look of early Star Wars ships.

I am not sure yet how I am going to build mine. The new remastered looks great and even though it is not super high end CGI, IMO the overall look is better than the original filming model footage. Only recently have they been able to produce CGI that looks "almost" real and that is with a lot of money and the best talent and equipment. So I am willing to cut them some slack for a 50 year old show.. We are lucky they even made the attempt, if you ask me. If you prefer the original effects, you can watch that way too!

Edited by DutyCat

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I'm am not trying to "stir the pot" as they say BUT in this image you posted there are definately hinted lines present. Granted it's not the perfect tight grid like the kits show and definately not engraved but I can make out at least two distinct lines (not engraved, just weathered as if with a pencil); one starting up above the two windows going up splitting the "N" and cutting diagnally splitting the "U" and the "S". The other one that is somewhat apparent is along down the very front of the saucer, immediately left of the "-" (right in the pic). I'd say that's enough evidence with "film to television to whatever source they used to post to youtube" conversions to at least say there might have been a thin pencil grid drawn on. My two cents.

I'd love to get this kit but yikes, size and money...not sure I could pass that one by my wife.

Bill

Tell you what Bill, you get the regular kit that runs for a little over a hundred dollars and I'll send you the parts I didn't use for the first or second pilot model if you want them.

Paul

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