F-22 incident?

[streetstream]

I am really surprised at the reaction to what going over the top really is. My point is that this thread is really stupid to argue about what the verbiage of what some General said…who cares. The point is that instead of being thankful that the gates are guarded with men/countries with guns and being grateful for that protection, this SS guy from Belgium has the arrogance to disrespect the very people that allow him to live as he does. To bad that makes him uncomfortable. Who's money do yo think it was that built the Raptor anyhow, And who is paying the bill for the US to be over their to keep the Oil flowing to western Europe free from Iranian disruption? Tell me who is it?? It is not the Belgian Air Force and I mean no disrespect in saying that, as they are a top notch force flying American F-16 and trained in America as we train American pilot. And let's not forget that America paid for the jets and the training as part of our NATO commitment. That means the American tax payer paid the bill, of which I am one. Wounldn't you have been better of saying "man, I am glad those jets are on patrol". It

Les, I will fly anywhere to meet you in front of any audience to debate history, especially American History, so swearing at me with your dollar signs is not going to get under my skin, I love you just the same and it makes you look small and uneducated. I did not mention Canada, a country where I have many relatives who served and died as well, because this thread was regarding a Belgians comments of American Military men and women. I think you need to really go back and read what I said, as you expanded the topic beyond the discussion. No where did I say America did it alone, but it is a historical fact that the war could not have been won, and won in the time frame it was without the industrial might of the United States, and a small part Canada being left alone to build the tools the descimated Europeans needed to fight with. Let us see, before America entered the war, Hitler controlled all of western Europe,, And people on fishing boats were called in to rescue the British Army at Dunkirk. Britain survived the battle of Britain through the shear will of the English people, the tenacity of the RAF, and the leadership of Winston Churchill….All under the protection of al mighty God, because only God could have made Hitler make the errors that he did. Canada was in the was then, how were all of the allies doing at that point? Were you winning? You were just glad the German invasion was not coming across the channel. As for the Russians, the US supplied the Soviets with more planes and tanks and truck than the their own factories could. intact they flew the much prized P-39/P400 to victory it was so highly regarded by the Soviet Air Force.

Answer this for me Les, Who rebuilt Europe after the war? Not just the winners, but the losers as well???? Think now Les……and what country burdened 99% of the defense costs of Europe to deter a Soviet invasion of western Europe for 50 years? Who was that Les ????? It was not Canada that is for sure. Not to say Canada was not playing a part in things, but without the US there is no Victory….. period.

Les, you make the comment (OK, so yes we can all be a$$holes about a history NONE OF US HERE FOUGHT IN OR LIVED THROUGH! ) Here you are dead wrong. My father fought in WWII and was wounded and died when I was young partially due to his service. I have two cousins who grew up and never knew their father, who was a navigator with the 8th on B-17s, and their 13 grandchildren have never known a grandpa because of his sacrifice over European counties. You obviously have no grasp of which you speak and shame on you sir, I suggest to you that the respect and gratitude does not end just because the generation that made the sacrifice is most passed on, as it is their children and grandchildren that now carry on the American tradition of Honor and Service.

Waco - really nothing more to say, thanks for your help. I just had to respond to this misguided youth.

Johnopfor - Hey man………how bad did it stink!!!!!!

You all have a good evening. Remember we are all on the same team.

I'm just going to reply one last time and than i'm going to drop this because it is too stupid to waste any more time on it.

You seem to be thinking that the US protects all the world and therefor we should be gratefull. The fact is, you created a world of chaos and are now trying to fight that chaos and act like a hero. So don't even think i owe you any respect for that.

I do however respect all the soldiers who fought in WW2. This includes the US, but also all other nations especially those who fought it from the start. So would i have respect for your father who fought in WW2. Yes. Should i therefor have respect for you. No. You didn't fight there, so why would i be grateful to you? You wouldn't want me blaiming you when a relitave of yours kills a person, now would you. If not, than you don't get any of the praise and glory if they do something right. You seem to think that because people from your country have done a great act in the past that i am somehow for ever in debt with all americans? Like i pointed out before, should i be greatful to a random drugdealer on the streets just because he's an american? If your answer to that question is 'yes', than i advise you to seek counseling. Also you seem to think that because of WW2 i can never call a american citizin a liar. (BTW, i'm not saying he's a liar. He, in my opinion, embellished the story).

Now as for the topic at hand, again, i don't claim that an F-22 can't stalk a F4. I just claim that it sounds like the story was embellished by adding details that don't sound realistic to me.

Now that's it for me. Back to modelling.

[31Tiger]

Wow this was entertaining, i do have a question as a belgian:

To whom and where do i send the belgian waffles and chocolates so we can get an F-22 at an airshow over here....

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

Hey Les,

You certainly come off as a liberal anti-american "hater" in you posts. But I understand your perspective. We Americans can be too brash sometimes, but it is part of our collective cultural "swagger" to use a current overused term. We have a "take it to 'em" mentality and historically tend to see things a little more black and white than other nations. We get frustrated at organizations such as the UN that are so politically compromised that they can't get anything done for fear of stepping on someone's toes......................(edited out).......

Wow, nothing I wrote was anti-American. You are just reading it that way. That's too bad that you are colouring other person's words as such.

As to WWII. No the victory that would have come regardless of the USA entry into the war would have been different and likely taken more years to reach. But the victory of the allies in WWII would have come eventually. The USSR and the vast British Commonwealth would eventually have overwhelmed the Germans and the Japanese. Not by Sept. 45 but some time later. Not maybe the same conditions of victory but some form of formal victory later. The USA entering the war in Dec. 41 of course tipped the tide in the Allies favour by a huge magnitude and as such vastly sped up the demise of the Axis powers.

My point is that the USA played its obvious major role in the outcome of WWII but it sure the Hell did not win it on its own and anyone who claims such deserves a swift knock across their dough filled head by some crotchety, aged Brit, Soviet, Canadian or other allied vet of WWII using likely his cane to knock some sense and reality into any person who'd be so damn arrogant to think the USA did it all and all on its own.

AND YES NOTHING I JUST WROTE IS ANTI-AMERICAN! But is pro-real history and is especially for due respect for any and all (of all nations involved) who served, fought and suffered in WWII.

[Fly-n-hi]

I'm just going to reply one last time and than i'm going to drop this because it is too stupid to waste any more time on it.

You seem to be thinking that the US protects all the world and therefor we should be gratefull. The fact is, you created a world of chaos and are now trying to fight that chaos and act like a hero. So don't even think i owe you any respect for that.

I do however respect all the soldiers who fought in WW2. This includes the US, but also all other nations especially those who fought it from the start. So would i have respect for your father who fought in WW2. Yes. Should i therefor have respect for you. No. You didn't fight there, so why would i be grateful to you? You wouldn't want me blaiming you when a relitave of yours kills a person, now would you. If not, than you don't get any of the praise and glory if they do something right. You seem to think that because people from your country have done a great act in the past that i am somehow for ever in debt with all americans? Like i pointed out before, should i be greatful to a random drugdealer on the streets just because he's an american? If your answer to that question is 'yes', than i advise you to seek counseling. Also you seem to think that because of WW2 i can never call a american citizin a liar. (BTW, i'm not saying he's a liar. He, in my opinion, embellished the story).

Now as for the topic at hand, again, i don't claim that an F-22 can't stalk a F4. I just claim that it sounds like the story was embellished by adding details that don't sound realistic to me.

Now that's it for me. Back to modelling.

Make no mistake about it friend...the Europeans have been creating a world of chaos for the last 2500 years. Your governments were screwing up the world long before the US even existed.

And don't ever confuse The United States with Washington DC. The people of the US have been a beacon of hope, freedom, industry, charity, ingenuity, faith, and many other things for 200+ years. The people of the US are just as fed up with Washington DC as anyone else. The main fault in the people of the US is that for some unexplainable reason they have allowed their government to turn into a European style rat fest.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Fly-n-hi

[rustywelder]

Wow this was entertaining, i do have a question as a belgian:

To whom and where do i send the belgian waffles and chocolates so we can get an F-22 at an airshow over here....

You can send the chocolates my way, I can't guarantee a Raptor show in return, just my gratitude. You can save the waffles though( they're better fresh). :D/>

Edited December 2, 2013 by rustywelder

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

I always picture a grown fat man who plays with toy airplanes in his spare time typing this with sausage fingers while the TV drones on in the background giving him this "worldly" knowledge to lecture the rest of us because he saw a commercial, instead of volunteering for a charity or helping a veteran.

How close am I?

Also, please stop posting the same rant here again and again thinking it makes any kind of difference other than people rolling their eyes at you. You apply it to any thread at the first opportunity, we've seen it, we get it. you are just as selfish and obsessive as the bored rich housewife you rail against. Ranting about what you think is the "proper way" others should live doesn't make you special. also bonus points on trying to spin your viewpoint as "non political" as "anyone can see it" thats pathetic.

I wish you would actually go out there and try and change the world instead of just typing about it on the internet, It would also keep you way too busy to repost this trash over and over again.

NASCAR BBQ!!

All I imagine of I were hearing from your post would be the teacher in a Charlie Brown cartoon. " Wah, wah... Wah wah wah!"

But as such I hardly post any stuff as I wrote here and no it's not trash but you in your state of mind you may believe so, so be it for you. Hey, but if you don't like it and maybe what others may write too DON'T READ IT! Let alone respond to it. It's not like I and maybe others here don't think you write trash in many of your posts here too. But do you see me bashing you for your posted thoughts? NOPE! Post on if you wish. I may or others may respond to your posts or maybe I and others won't. I am not trying to bash you for posting nor stop you from any thoughts and yes sometimes tripe or trash you write here too. You ain't perfect, nor divine in righteousness of word here too bub. If I don't care for them I MOVE ON and often don't bother to reply to a thought you may post that I may see as trashy, silly, or otherwise misguided.

BTW I have 1900+ posts here you have over 6100. What are the odds that you have a magnitude more trashy, blowhard or stupid posts than I? The F-35 thread alone you probably dwarf all my (in reality few) rant like posts I have ever posted here at this forum. So if the shoe fits buddy.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Les / Creative Edge Photo

[Flyingfortress]

I knew those damned Buckeyes were going to beat Michigan!!!!! Hope the Spartans give some payback!!!

[Av8fan]

Real Chocolate?!?!?! Yes please..um..I can email a picture of an F-22 at a an airshow if that helps.

K, back to packing up my modelling supplies and books.

[Ken Cartwright]

Here are pictures of an F-22 AND an F-4, since both were mentioned in the article. Does that qualify me for some Belgian chocolate?

[streetstream]

Make no mistake about it friend...the Europeans have been creating a world of chaos for the last 2500 years. Your governments were screwing up the world long before the US even existed.

Trust me, i'm not making that mistake. You are absolutly right that Europe is f"cking things up just as much as the US is. Personnaly, i blame religion (or better the misuse of it).

Edited December 2, 2013 by streetstream

[TaiidanTomcat]

All I imagine of I were hearing from your post would be the teacher in a Charlie Brown cartoon. " Wah, wah... Wah wah wah!"

But as such I hardly post any stuff as I wrote here and no it's not trash but you in your state of mind you may believe so, so be it for you. Hey, but if you don't like it and maybe what others may write too DON'T READ IT! Let alone respond to it. It's not like I and maybe others here don't think you write trash in many of your posts here too. But do you see me bashing you for your posted thoughts? NOPE! Post on if you wish. I may or others may respond to your posts or maybe I and others won't. I am not trying to bash you for posting nor stop you from any thoughts and yes sometimes tripe or trash you write here too. You ain't perfect, nor divine in righteousness of word here too bub. If I don't care for them I MOVE ON and often don't bother to reply to a thought you may post that I may see as trashy, silly, or otherwise misguided.

BTW I have 1900+ posts here you have over 6100. What are the odds that you have a magnitude more trashy, blowhard or stupid posts than I? The F-35 thread alone you probably dwarf all my (in reality few) rant like posts I have ever posted here at this forum. So if the shoe fits buddy.

So I'm right on the sausage fingers?

[TaiidanTomcat]

Trust me, i'm not making that mistake. You are absolutly right that Europe is f"cking things up just as much as the US is. Personnaly, i blame religion (or better the misuse of it).

This thread is about to go plaid

Edited December 2, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[david sMiGielski]

Why hasn't this been locked yet?

Anyone?

[TaiidanTomcat]

Why hasn't this been locked yet?

Anyone?

Real Housewives Marathon I bet.

The moderaters are probably out enjoying their lives beyond the internet.

Edited December 2, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[Rank11]

Wow, nothing I wrote was anti-American. You are just reading it that way. That's too bad that you are colouring other person's words as such.

AND YES NOTHING I JUST WROTE IS ANTI-AMERICAN! But is pro-real history and is especially for due respect for any and all (of all nations involved) who served, fought and suffered in WWII.

What you think or insist you said does not matter as much as what others heard you say.

[Rank11]

The fact is, you created a world of chaos and are now trying to fight that chaos and act like a hero. So don't even think i owe you any respect for that.

Ahh yes, there it is. The disdain for Americans you were so speciously trying to mask behind a veil of disbelief earlier. Doesn't it feel good to just let all out?

[ALF18]

WARNING: Absolutely no politics in this response. Just the facts.

I see no reason to disbelieve the facts as revealed at the press conference. Why would they not be true?

1. Closing in from behind and below, another fighter is very difficult to detect, especially if their radars are either off or in a low probability of intercept mode (the huge advantage of the F-22's generation of fighters).

2. To assess an adversary's weapons load, it is not necessary to get much closer than 500 feet or so, behind and below. There is absolutely nothing stupid or imprudent about this. I have been able to spot weapons hanging on other fighters (in 20 years of career as a fighter pilot) from more than 3,000 feet away; I say 500 feet because that's when you can see clearly if they are armed or dummy versions. Therefore, this is not ANY basis to doubt the story.

3. It is standard for an intercepting fighter to come up beside (usually on the left) another aircraft, and the message to "go away" can be clearly delivered in many ways, both verbal and non-verbal. Verbal? On 243.0 MHz, an international emergency frequency that the IRIAF F-4 radios can pick up. Non-verbal? ICAO publishes international intercept signals that ALL aviators (military or civilian) must know to have a licence or a military pilot qualification.

Does this sound like a bit of a too good to be true story? Not really. This kind of incident happens more often than most people know. Back in the days of the Cold War, lots of close encounters happened, and they continue today, with varying amounts of drama.

People who refuse to believe this kind of press conference are just searching wildly for reasons to be contrarians. Governments are not always bad. Generals rarely lie to the public, especially about something that is so benign.

ALF out.

[TaiidanTomcat]

WARNING: Absolutely no politics in this response. Just the facts.

I see no reason to disbelieve the facts as revealed at the press conference. Why would they not be true?

1. Closing in from behind and below, another fighter is very difficult to detect, especially if their radars are either off or in a low probability of intercept mode (the huge advantage of the F-22's generation of fighters).

2. To assess an adversary's weapons load, it is not necessary to get much closer than 500 feet or so, behind and below. There is absolutely nothing stupid or imprudent about this. I have been able to spot weapons hanging on other fighters (in 20 years of career as a fighter pilot) from more than 3,000 feet away; I say 500 feet because that's when you can see clearly if they are armed or dummy versions. Therefore, this is not ANY basis to doubt the story.

3. It is standard for an intercepting fighter to come up beside (usually on the left) another aircraft, and the message to "go away" can be clearly delivered in many ways, both verbal and non-verbal. Verbal? On 243.0 MHz, an international emergency frequency that the IRIAF F-4 radios can pick up. Non-verbal? ICAO publishes international intercept signals that ALL aviators (military or civilian) must know to have a licence or a military pilot qualification.

Does this sound like a bit of a too good to be true story? Not really. This kind of incident happens more often than most people know. Back in the days of the Cold War, lots of close encounters happened, and they continue today, with varying amounts of drama.

People who refuse to believe this kind of press conference are just searching wildly for reasons to be contrarians. Governments are not always bad. Generals rarely lie to the public, especially about something that is so benign.

ALF out.

This is not the time for facts or logic

[streetstream]

Ahh yes, there it is. The disdain for Americans you were so speciously trying to mask behind a veil of disbelief earlier. Doesn't it feel good to just let all out?

Ah, maybe you missed this quote

The people of the US have been a beacon of hope, freedom, industry, charity, ingenuity, faith, and many other things for 200+ years.

That's the other side of it. It is statements like that that create the disdain you accuse me of showing. But hey, it's just

coïncidence that you missed that quote and saw mine, isn't it?

And let's not forget you missed this one by yours truly.

Trust me, i'm not making that mistake. You are absolutly right that Europe is f"cking things up just as much as the US is

Edited December 2, 2013 by streetstream

[ALF18]

This is not the time for facts or logic

All right! Typical "arrogant" comment...

Canadian response:

Sorry...

ALF

P.S. - I will stop trying to use logic and facts on internet forums. You are SO right...

I will go back into my igloo now, and wait for the next GB, or Spring.

[TaiidanTomcat]

All right! Typical "arrogant" comment... :rolleyes:/>

Canadian response:

Sorry...

:woot.gif:/>

ALF

P.S. - I will stop trying to use logic and facts on internet forums. You are SO right... :thumbsup:/>

I will go back into my igloo now, and wait for the next GB, or Spring.

LOL (Hope I did read this correctly as you joking back)

Fine post though

[TaiidanTomcat]

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

What you think or insist you said does not matter as much as what others heard you say.

I can't help how others may choose to interpret correctly or incorrectly a written response. In accepting this I need not stop expressing a point of view on any topic I wish even if for some inane reason a person on an informal internet forum may get his/her feelings hurt.

I'm hardly anti-American and hardy discuss controversial topics here at this forum. That said I owe you nor anyone NOTHING in terms of gratitude for being able to live my life in general peace and good order in Canada. I owe respect to those at all levels and in all ways who help create this quality of life I can partake in my nation. No so called free nation's citizens owes the USA any such tear felt gratitude, for doing such only enslaves those who would bow to another nation's power and its society.

I'm a very well informed fan of modern history and history of conflict along with geo-politics. I will pay my respect to any that fought and served in what many feel was a noble and just cause regardless of nationality they may be. I will never give in to nonsense that my freedom comes only at the behest of the USA ok? Because I know it does not. I certainly owe none of you here at this forum my bended knee ok?

For those who served and serve their nation including those in the USA I offer my heart felt respect especially if you served and serve nobly and in a just way. But do not expect me to drop to my knees for you ok?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Les / Creative Edge Photo

[Rank11]

Ah, maybe you missed this quote

That's the other side of it. It is statements like that that create the disdain you accuse me of showing. But hey, it's just

coïncidence that you missed that quote and saw mine, isn't it?

And let's not forget you missed this one by yours truly.

So you hate both Europeans and Americans. What does that mean? That it justifies your hatred for Ameticans since you hate Europeans as well. That you're just too cool for any of them?

[TaiidanTomcat]

I can't help how others may choose to interpret correctly or incorrectly a written response. In accepting this I need not stop expressing a point of view on any topic I wish even if for some inane reason a person on an informal internet forum may get his/her feelings hurt.

I'm hardly anti-American and hardy discuss controversial topics here at this forum. That said I owe you nor anyone NOTHING in terms of gratitude for being able to live my life in general peace and good order in Canada. I owe respect to those at all levels and in all ways who help create this quality of life I can partake in my nation. No so called free nation's citizens owes the USA any such tear felt gratitude, for doing such only enslaves those who would bow to another nation's power and its society.

I'm a very well informed fan of modern history and history of conflict along with geo-politics. I will pay my respect to any that fought and served in what many feel was a noble and just cause regardless of nationality they may be. I will never give in to nonsense that my freedom comes only at the behest of the USA ok? Because I know it does not. I certainly owe none of you here at this forum my bended knee ok?

For those who served and serve their nation including those in the USA I offer my heart felt respect especially if you served and serve nobly and in a just way. But do not expect me to drop to my knees for you ok?

Your welcome, slave.