Cost of producing a modern 1/48 model

[foxmulder_ms]

I was wondering what is the cost of producing a modern 1/48 jet model to the companies. Of course, it will be different for each case and there will be exceptions but an average is what I am looking for. Especially, I would love to hear from people who are in the business.

[niart17]

I'm not in the injection molding business so this might not really give you a complete picture, but I work for a company that does sheet extrusion dies; which I imagine are a bit less complicated than an injection die (especially one that uses slide molds). Our dies can run anywhere from a couple hundred thousand to a couple of million dollars depending on usage and size. That's just the die part of the process. you still have the extruders and pipiing for the melt flow, I would guess there is some sort of a feedblock setup and the pin equipment to de-mold and send the sprues on their way. Then you have to add subject research, design, packaging, etc...

So I'm sure we're talking in the millions if you count the whole process. Of course most companies probably sub-out the actual injection molding process so a lot of that infrastructure is in place already.

I'd be interested in the actual numbers myself.

Bill

[Jennings]

There are about a million variables, and it depends entirely on what company you're talking about, where they're located, and how they do business. And it's not something any of them advertise, nor are any of the companies doing it public companies that are required to open their books to public scrutiny.

[KursadA]

While I am not in kit manufacturing business (yet - it is a long term goal of mine), I talked to various people in the industry and received quotes from Chinese manufacturers for potential subjects. I also was instrumental in the design of a successful novelty toy that was manufactured in China and had injection molded parts - while I only designed the electronics, I was privy to the details of mold development costs. And I can assure you that the cost is not "in the millions". Nobody spends a million dollars to design a scale model kit - most model kits from second-tier manufacturers (i.e. not Tamiya or Hasegawa) these days have total print runs of less than 10000. For the math challenged, a $1M development cost would in this case correspond to $100 per kit just to recoup development costs - clearly not a sustainable proposition.

The actual costs are lower: State-of-the-art Chinese manufacturers typically quote amounts in the high five digits - low six digits for mold development of moderately complex 1/48 aircraft kits. Box design, instruction sheet design, marketing etc. are all fairly low-cost items and there are lots of free-lance talent to do these things - the costs associated with these are nothing compared to mold tooling costs.

Edited September 26, 2014 by KursadA

[niart17]

When I'm saying millions, I'm talking about ALL aspects of the process, not just the one companies part of it. That's why I said most companies don't do their own molding, because it makes no sense for them to do that. If we're talking only about the cost of designing the models and then marketing the product, yes it's much much less. But a process line to run injection molded parts is going to be very high. Of course most of that process cost is spread out over several different products and contracts. But he asked about cost of the process from design to selling so I assume he meant ALL of the process.

Bill

Edited September 26, 2014 by niart17

[GEH737]

The tooling may not be "in the millions" - but I heard first hand from someone (I can't mention then name, but you know the company) who's tried to get a license from Disney for model kits. Their attorneys don't know what model kits are, they don't care about any of it. They do care about getting at least a million if fees - up front - long before the tooling has even been thought about. Oh - and your license only lasts two years - after handing them the super-sized check... After hearing about all the headaches involved with licensing - it's amazing that anything gets produced at all. That's the reason the old MPC Pirates and Haunted Mansion kits aren't being redone.

Edited September 26, 2014 by GEH737

[KursadA]

When I'm saying millions, I'm talking about ALL aspects of the process, not just the one companies part of it. That's why I said most companies don't do their own molding, because it makes no sense for them to do that. If we're talking only about the cost of designing the models and then marketing the product, yes it's much much less. But a process line to run injection molded parts is going to be very high. Of course most of that process cost is spread out over several different products and contracts.

The original poster is asking about the total cost of designing, subcontracting manufacturing and marketing one model kit; not about the cost of running a factory or production line for model kits. Your answer is akin to saying "Feed and care of a herd of milk cows would be $500,000 including the costs of the barn" when the question is "How much does a bottle of milk cost?". Getting a model kit to the market does not cost a million dollars - and this is not a guess, I am active in the industry and am in a position to know.

[niart17]

The original poster is asking about the total cost of designing, subcontracting manufacturing and marketing one model kit; not about the cost of running a factory or production line for model kits. Your answer is akin to saying "Feed and care of a herd of milk cows would be $500,000 including the costs of the barn" when the question is "How much does a bottle of milk cost?". Getting a model kit to the market does not cost a million dollars - and this is not a guess, I am active in the industry and am in a position to know.

Dude, sorry. No need to get snooty. I simply read the question differently than you did. I thought he was referring to how much the production cost total. I didn't see anywhere where he said anything about sub-contracting so I took it differently. Which is why I clarified by saying "Of course most companies probably sub-out the actual injection molding process so a lot of that infrastructure is in place already." But whatever.

And actually "how much does a bottle of milk cost" isn't anywhere NEAR the question he asked. If so his question would have been "how much does a model kit cost". His would be more like "how much does it cost a dairy to run a production run of product".

Bill

Edited September 26, 2014 by niart17

[ChesshireCat]

I can tell you this; Look at the head light box on the front of your car. That shiny chrome looking back panel alone will cost roughly $2,000,000 a piece (they'll buy three or four molds for a model run, and maybe as much as ten mold blocks). The clear lens is even more costly due to shape and machining issues. The injection mold blocks (liquid injection) for molten aluminum can be as expensive as $15,000,000 a piece, and as cheap as $500K. A lot depends on material and mold block cooling setups. If the block is cooled, you automatcly plan a minimum of a 33% increase in cost. I've seen Chinese mold blocks (not pandering to Jennings), and you get what you paid for. No mold life due to choice of materials alone. Rarely cooled correctly, and over polish is sub par. They look like they use H13 steel, or maybe something even cheaper. The big boys think 410SS steel or Graphmo. These don't machine well, but last a long time. Ten years ago we went by the $350 an hour rule for machine time alone. Programing added another five percent, and design added ten to twenty percent to the finish product. I've seen mold blocks at had over ten million hits on them, and were still rolling along nicely. You rebuild them at least once a year, and often twice a year. I heard once that the tool cost for a typical four cylinder injection molded block didn't pay for itself till the end of the second year of use! (by the way that's where slide molding was developed, and the technology was stolen).

can't tell you much more due to confidentiality clauses

glt

[niart17]

I'd imagine lower runs like a model kit don't have to use the higher quality steel. But if they would, the molds would last a LOT longer. We use P20 or 15-5 S.S. mostly. Occasionally a Haynes material but that's for really specialized equipment as it's VERY expensive.

So Chesshire? in injection molding, are the extruder setups similar to sheet processes? I guess they are not as complicated though since we're dealing with multi-layer plastics that require precise layering when doing sheets.

Bill

[Wayfarer 30]

ChesshireCat,

WOW! Thanks for that rundown on creating molds. To the layman, it is very informing.

Mike

[foxmulder_ms]

Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. What I was asking is closer to what Kursad understood.

State-of-the-art Chinese manufacturers typically quote amounts in the high five digits - low six digits for mold development of moderately complex 1/48 aircraft kits. Box design, instruction sheet design, marketing etc. are all fairly low-cost items and there are lots of free-lance talent to do these things - the costs associated with these are nothing compared to mold tooling costs.

So, for the sake of discussion, if they are giving you quotes for around 100K for modern 1/48 aircraft, is it safe to assume the cost for them is possibly 50K? I assume this does not include any production..?

Edited September 26, 2014 by foxmulder_ms

[ChesshireCat]

I'd imagine lower runs like a model kit don't have to use the higher quality steel. But if they would, the molds would last a LOT longer. We use P20 or 15-5 S.S. mostly. Occasionally a Haynes material but that's for really specialized equipment as it's VERY expensive.

So Chesshire? in injection molding, are the extruder setups similar to sheet processes? I guess they are not as complicated though since we're dealing with multi-layer plastics that require precise layering when doing sheets.

Bill

I've only worked around an extruder a couple times, and never learned a lot. Other than never pick up the finished part right away! Very hot! We were extruding roller bearing bushings that were roughed leaving about .005" all the way around. They then were heat treated and ground. There's another process called "hydro forming", and we never did any, but always out sourced the work. Some of it was done in the USA and the big heavy stuff went to Germany. There's another process that uses a molding die with something like C4 to form a shape. Only folks I know of doing this are Roll Royce in Indy. (pretty secretive I might add)

It's not some much the steel quality as it is the strength (note the 15-5 re-arc melt stainless). Although I think if I were going that far, I'd spec 17-4 rearc melt or better yet MAR10. I've seen dies let go on the fifth part!

gary

[ChesshireCat]

ChesshireCat,

WOW! Thanks for that rundown on creating molds. To the layman, it is very informing.

Mike

I once made of a set of dies for powdered metal gears. Mostly done of EDM's. Took about a week and a half to build the molds, and the first set of gears came in about .0055" too big. Made a second set per revisions, and they were too small! Third set was about .0015" too small, and crept up on the magic number on the fourth attempt. The problem was the gears shrank in the oven. But came out hard, as in very hard. The other three sets of molds ended up in the junk pile, but made beautiful junk<g>!

gary

[mingwin]

a couple of years ago, i had made inquiries to a chinese mold makers for quotes (just by curiosity) ...they where asking about 10K per 40sq inches, for a 2 parts mold... and more... and that was just for the "tooling" of the mold (and the material... can't remember all, it was quite technical)

[mawz]

I don't know the numbers for model aircraft kits, but I do know something about the model railroad world.

A local producer, who is known for their unusual prototypes, and uses a Chinese factory for molding, paint & assembly, needs around 2500 units to pay for the whole cost of an assembled & shipped locomotive production run. Their stuff is such that the first run needs to pay for the molds as no second run is guaranteed and their parts counts are in the 200-300 parts per unit range (seriously, some of their passenger cars have more parts than Tamiya's 1/32 Corsair). They charge about $350 for the more complex locomotives ready to run. That's about $875K total income for a run.

Pretty clearly that means that the molds are going to be in the tens of thousands to maybe $100K, since they also need to pay for the drives, electronics (DCC unit & speaker), paint, assembly, shipping, retail margin and make a survivable profit.

[A.C.Acikgoz]

aproxx. 50K is enough for an 10000 shot of a middle jet fighter... more than this depends on how luxury you will add the box; 30 color decal shhet, A3 size PE fret etc :)

[ChesshireCat]

a lot of the cost factor is just how many castings you plan to build. A mold has a life just like anything else. The size has a lot to do with it as well. There is no free lunch. The bigger the part the more issues are involved. Then we have the folks making CAD drawings. Easy? Try it if you think it is. We often see companies making parts that were originally done with a slide rule and a French curve. You no big deal! Then try it! The master is the original part, and these are often to big to get good numbers off of, and many times don't exist. We so folks laying a part next to somebody's drawing. When you see that you know everything going on is suspect. If you have the correct factory blue prints (there is a major difference between a blue print and a drawing), you'll usually see a not to scale note somewhere on it. The drawings are even worse. Few corporations have access to equipment that can seriously plot the compound curves of an airframe, and don't let anybody tell you they don't need one! I often used one that was accurate of half an arc second. Then we get a good print, and have to convert it to machine data. The next issue is that computers do not make round holes, unless they are bored to size, and have their own issues with curves. Typically they end up with a series of flats instead of a curve. Lots of variables here.

gary