Mi-8MT/Mi-17 from Annetra, Trumpeter & Zvezda in 48th scale

[ya-gabor]

So what about the rivets?

Do the kits from 3 different manufacturers have them or not. The answer is YES. All three of them have them but in every case they are made according to the taste of the given maker.

The Annetra AMK kit has some external rivets but mainly they are the different fasteners found on some service panels. In many cases those panels which are on top of the airframe surface (reinforcements, extra panels, areas for attaching load bearing parts . . .) are given as such. Please find below the illustrations. I did raise the question of rivets with Annetra in the past. The idea was to have a version with some rivets / fasteners and later to have  an extra professional version which would have external rivets added via decals or other technology. The difference in the two versions is a considerable price tag.

 

Trumpeter provides rivets in a usual style from the company. (I believe there is a software at Trumpeter which automatically adds rivets around service panels, no matter what the original aircraft / helicopter looks like) What is more important they are all recessed rivets, which in the case of a Mi-8 helicopter is inappropriate. The real helicopter has tons of external rivets of different sizes all over its surface. Some would say its rivets look like on a flying steam engine.

 

The Звезда kit has rivets in appropriate places. Good to see that after the Naked Mi-24 kits at last they decided on adding rivets on the surface.

 

More on the rivets latter.

 

 

 

  

Best regards

Gabor

[cruiz]

This feature has to be one of the most evident differentiators between the three; the detail on Zvezda's one looks as beautiful as complex to keep while dealing with seams; Annetra's kit will benefit from added riveting detail, either as raised decals (which could be expensive) or with an engraving tool (my option possibly).

[mario krijan]

Zvezda looks best of these 3. Hope that AMK without rivets, would be cheaper than Zvezda. I am not big fan of complete interior offered by AMK. Now looking at this, strange that Zvezda didnt added rivets on Mi-24... Maybe they prepared that kit in some kind cooperation with Eduard....

[delide]

Never used rivet decals, I can't image it would be easier than dealing with existing raised rivets. Just the alignment could be a pain, to get everything perfectly straight and parallel, a time consuming task never the less. Not a good idea from AMK I think, especially if they can't get their planned professional version released any time soon? Good to see AMK take the time to modify the tooling, the tail boom and fuselage intersection certainly looks so much better than in 2019.

 

Funny how everything used to be raised in the past, engraved details used to be the challenge, Nowadays everyone can do finely engraved details,  but raised rivets become the challenge.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by delide

[ya-gabor]

12 hours ago, mario krijan said:

Zvezda looks best of these 3. Hope that AMK without rivets, would be cheaper than Zvezda. I am not big fan of complete interior offered by AMK. Now looking at this, strange that Zvezda didnt added rivets on Mi-24... Maybe they prepared that kit in some kind cooperation with Eduard....

 

The Mi-24 kit without the rivets was much, much cheaper to make, the tooling with rivets is so much more expensive! From the side the manufacturers a lot was explained about the extra costs of surface rivets by the CEO of Eduard.

 

I am 100% sure that Звезда did cooperate with local manufacturers like the ARMA company who had the raised rivet decals offered on release of the kit, it is clear that they had the plastic to work on far before the kit was released. Obvious cooperation.

In the past there was cooperation with Eduard but it was more about buying plastic sprues and re-releasing them under their own label. Like right now in February they have an Eduard boxing at about 85 Euro of the Mi-24V (with extras including a book) as well as with additional very basic Overtrees (only plastic nothing more) boxes at around 24 Euro.

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by ya-gabor

[ya-gabor]

10 hours ago, delide said:

. . .  especially if they can't get their planned professional version released any time soon? , , ,

 

What will happen to the Czech kit is an interesting question. Since initial conception a lot, Lot, LOT of things have changed!!!

 

It was originally a kit under the Annetra brand name in mid 2010’s. Since then we had Covid, enormous increase in basically everything like fuel prices, raw materials, paper, transportation, international post, inflation, the supply lines have grown incredibly both in terms of time, price and length . . . So today in 2023 the whole situation is not simply very different, but dramatically different in every way! One obvious thing is that today the kit is marketed as Annetra AMK with the original designers name in some communications completely missing.   : (   : (  This also effects the future of the kit, will those original ideas about its future resurface? Have no idea.

 

For the moment we have to do with what is available right now (well hopefully all the kits will be available in some form sooner or later), as shown on comparison images on previous pages.  

 

Best regards

Gabor

[delide]

7 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

 

What will happen to the Czech kit is an interesting question. Since initial conception a lot, Lot, LOT of things have changed!!!

 

It was originally a kit under the Annetra brand name in mid 2010’s. Since then we had Covid, enormous increase in basically everything like fuel prices, raw materials, paper, transportation, international post, inflation, the supply lines have grown incredibly both in terms of time, price and length . . . So today in 2023 the whole situation is not simply very different, but dramatically different in every way! One obvious thing is that today the kit is marketed as Annetra AMK with the original designers name in some communications completely missing.   : (   : (  This also effects the future of the kit, will those original ideas about its future resurface? Have no idea.

 

For the moment we have to do with what is available right now (well hopefully all the kits will be available in some form sooner or later), as shown on comparison images on previous pages.  

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

Thanks for the information. It must be difficult with so many changes. Though I guess their development speed were also not the fastest, now they also have to deal with Zvzeda. Never mind Trumpeter, they are like having their research automated indeed.

 

Missed the CEO of Eduard explaining the cost of rivets. I could imagine that with EDM process, the raised rivets would need to be added afterwards to the finished molds and therefore more expensive. I'm not going to complain. But I can see that many might just go for the Zvezda kit now because of the rivet details. 
 

[serendip]

20 hours ago, delide said:

Never used rivet decals, I can't image it would be easier than dealing with existing raised rivets. Just the alignment could be a pain, to get everything perfectly straight and parallel, a time consuming task never the less. Not a good idea from AMK I think, especially if they can't get their planned professional version released any time soon? Good to see AMK take the time to modify the tooling, the tail boom and fuselage intersection certainly looks so much better than in 2019.

 

Funny how everything used to be raised in the past, engraved details used to be the challenge, Nowadays everyone can do finely engraved details,  but raised rivets become the challenge.

 

 

I'm wondering what a 'professional' version even means. How many professional modelers are there?

Sounds like a way to make more money to me.
 

Marc.

[ya-gabor]

38 minutes ago, serendip said:

I'm wondering what a 'professional' version even means. How many professional modelers are there?

Sounds like a way to make more money to me.
 

Marc.

 

Hi Marc,

 

It is something similar to an Eduard kit, which is in its plastic form usualy about 70-80% of what it could be. A lot of details are left off, the cockpit, undercarriage, bays are good but far from perfect.  Still in the end one can build a fairly good kit out of it, but . . .

 

To get close to 99% one has to buy all the photoetch, brassin, 3D print, extra decals  . . . offered by the same company. Will it be used by real "professionals"?

No, it will be built by modellers who want to get more out of a given kit. (I would say like most of us who buy an aftermarket "whatever" to improve on the basic kit)

Will they actually build it? If they did, then there would be no STASH owned by most modellers. 

 

Yes, kit production is a business!

 

Actually Eduard is a very good example. Take one plastic kit, any from the production. Say it is a Spitfire. They sell in a plain white box the Overtrees kits, nothing at all in them apart from just plastic sprues for one kit.

They make Weekend with a little extra in this case one version of markings in decals, and add instructions and a nice box top art work.  

There is a Profipack with many marking options, could be some resin parts and small photoetch.

The Dual combo with two kits, more aftermarket or even a book included.

The Royal box with even more things inside all on top of the same basic plastic parts which are in that Overtrees Spit box. One can make something very different from one and from the other. Still the same plastic kit is sold to you only the price tag is substantially different. But everyone has the choice to get a kit for their own needs, size of pocket, skill level . . . 

It is a business! And this business make the world go around, pays for future kits . . .

 

Best regards

Gabor

[serendip]

9 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

 

Hi Marc,

 

It is something similar to an Eduard kit, which is in its plastic form usualy about 70-80% of what it could be. A lot of details are left off, the cockpit, undercarriage, bays are good but far from perfect.  Still in the end one can build a fairly good kit out of it, but . . .

 

To get close to 99% one has to buy all the photoetch, brassin, 3D print, extra decals  . . . offered by the same company. Will it be used by real "professionals"?

No, it will be built by modellers who want to get more out of a given kit. (I would say like most of us who buy an aftermarket "whatever" to improve on the basic kit)

Will they actually build it? If they did, then there would be no STASH owned by most modellers. 

 

Yes, kit production is a business!

 

Actually Eduard is a very good example. Take one plastic kit, any from the production. Say it is a Spitfire. They sell in a plain white box the Overtrees kits, nothing at all in them apart from just plastic sprues for one kit.

They make Weekend with a little extra in this case one version of markings in decals, and add instructions and a nice box top art work.  

There is a Profipack with many marking options, could be some resin parts and small photoetch.

The Dual combo with two kits, more aftermarket or even a book included.

The Royal box with even more things inside all on top of the same basic plastic parts which are in that Overtrees Spit box. One can make something very different from one and from the other. Still the same plastic kit is sold to you only the price tag is substantially different. But everyone has the choice to get a kit for their own needs, size of pocket, skill level . . . 

It is a business! And this business make the world go around, pays for future kits . . .

 

Best regards

Gabor

I know Gabor, and I was having a bit of fun.

It just always amuses me when marketing types use the word professional on everything from toothbrushes to detegrgents in order to make more money.

I understand the concept of making money to improve and innovate and make better and better products - it's the transparency of the marketing tactics that is amusing (and sometimes (TV ads for example )) somewhat insulting (do they really think we're that stupid).

But I fear I'm getting off topic.

Great post by the way, enjoying very much.

Marc.

[ya-gabor]

What about the raised rivets?

 

Well there is something strange!!!

 

As mentioned before the tail unit is made of four parts, two sides with separate top and bottom. (obviously with future versions in mind)  They all come together to make that perfectly round tail boom of the Hip. With the breakdown it was possible to have perfect surface details with rivets and all for each quarter without resorting to expensive slide mould technology in producing them. When this four part idea was revealed already many asked, OK but what about the fit of parts, will they be perfect since in any other case they would need substantial cleaning work? And what will happen to the fine surface rivets if one has to use filler and sanding for the fitting. In principle the fit of parts is OK. The question about disappearing rivets was answered by the manufacturer. (unfortunately!)

 

Tried a dry run with the tail unit. Well, you need 4-5 hands to do it right and hold parts in place. The inner round spacers help in achieving perfect fit but proper locator pins are missing here for me. The problems start when you put the top and bottom parts next to the side units. It becomes evident that while the rivets are there they are very different and ruin the whole illusion of “complete” riveting. On the side pieces (Part G16 & G17) the rivets unfortunately almost completely disappear, fade away at the edges, while on top and bottom rivets are excellent all the way to edges on both sides. The only solution here would be to bring out those rivet decals and replace the almost invisible rivets. And with this we are back to square one, where there is need for aftermarket and extra work.  

 

 

 

 

 

OK one can say that photos cheat and the problem is with lighting. this is why I made a separate photo where top and side panels are put next to each other in exactly the same lighting condition. It is clearly visible that on top (and bottom part too) the rivets are clear and perfect all the way from side to side. While on side panels they go invisible on the sides. Believe it was some kind of technological problem.

 

 

Here it is in closer look.

 

 

The result is that you have to either re-rivet the tail with engraved rivets, add 3D rivet decals on the side panels, sand down all the rivets (then why get this kit at all?) . . .   The whole point of doing all the rivets on this kit is completely lost with this problem!

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

[Andreas Beck]

Solution ?? :

Eduard or Begemot or Quinta or others make a 3D resin decal for the tail-boom only. I think this can easily retail for far less than € 10.- .

Edited February 4, 2023 by Andreas Beck
corr

[ya-gabor]

54 minutes ago, Andreas Beck said:

Solution ?? :

Eduard or Begemot or Quinta or others make a 3D resin decal for the tail-boom only. I think this can easily retail for far less than € 10.- .

 

I have no idea for this!  Sorry!

Here only these side parts will need to be made. I would sand parts G16 and G17 down and get the rivet decal on it. But what will it be like???? As you can see on the dry fit test, the rivet lines join perfectly and are the same size and spacing. So if it wasnt for the vanishing rivets it would be perfect. But if you add what ever rivet decal, will it be just as good fit???

There are other areas on the kit where rivets for one reason or other are missing, so a "correction" set of rivets should have them also. 

As far as I know Begemot is not making such decals, Quinta is possible, Eduard I dont think so. For the later this would be a very small set. But never say never!  : )  : )

What else can you do??? Have no idea! Something went wrong in production. It is highly unlikely that they will return to the presforms and make corrections in my opinion. 

 

Best regards

Gabor

Edited February 4, 2023 by ya-gabor

[ya-gabor]

Continuing with comparison of the three kits, here is a bit more on the interior details. There is little to add to the images apart from the fact that on the Annetra kit the number of those holes on the back roof is not right unfortunately while they got it right that just in front of it the interior ceiling has a rounded central part. Also the access to the overhead equipment bay (front part of the tail boom interior) has a small square canvas cover.

 

There is little to say about the Trumpeter kit as it has absolutely no reality in its reproduction of the real thing.

 

On the Звезда kit the number of those holes is right, but they give a strange square cut out in front of it, where it should be a nicely rounded central roof panel. A single piece  long rectangular ceiling panel is given for the equipment bay access. I am sure there is a chance that somewhere from all those thousands of Mi-8’s some were produced like this, but most of them had a square “door” on the roof and the rounded cover next to it as on the Annetra kit.

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

Edited February 5, 2023 by ya-gabor

[ya-gabor]

Eduard will release in April three sets designed for the Zvezda Mi-8MT (Set 1340 + 49).

Actually I was looking forward to this photoetch but in its present form it has unfortunately little value! Was looking forward to seeing some of the parts which Zvezda simply forgot to make for the kit and which are perfect subjects for photoetch, but basically there are none in this new set!  Very sad!!!!

 

 

 

Here are some examples of the problems.

Eduard Part 74 was used on early Mi-8T’s. Zvezda made a mistake in including Part E6 (the equivalent of this Edu Part 74) and unfortunately Eduard followed this mistake! Of course with time Zvezda will also do a proper Mi-8T (with TV2-117 engine) and then this part will be of use in the kit. But not for the Mi-8MT/Mi-17!

 

The “shades” (Eduard Part 1 & 2 on colour etch) over the instrument panels are for early Mi-8T’s!  : (  : (  The Mi-17 shades are very different!

 

I don’t understand why Zvezda Part E16 and E17 were made by Eduard as Part 65 and 66! The original plastic parts are perfectly adequate for the kit. It is a complete waste of brass!!! 

 

And there are so many fine details which are simply perfect for photoetch technology which have not been made by Eduard. Sad! Very sad! Opportunity lost.

Actually Zvezda people were saying that many parts they don’t make since the aftermarket companies (including Eduard) will make it anyway so why should they try to make these very small parts from plastic!

 

Best regards

Gabor

[serendip]

10 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

Eduard will release in April three sets designed for the Zvezda Mi-8MT (Set 1340 + 49).

Actually I was looking forward to this photoetch but in its present form it has unfortunately little value! Was looking forward to seeing some of the parts which Zvezda simply forgot to make for the kit and which are perfect subjects for photoetch, but basically there are none in this new set!  Very sad!!!!

 

 

 

Here are some examples of the problems.

Eduard Part 74 was used on early Mi-8T’s. Zvezda made a mistake in including Part E6 (the equivalent of this Edu Part 74) and unfortunately Eduard followed this mistake! Of course with time Zvezda will also do a proper Mi-8T (with TV2-117 engine) and then this part will be of use in the kit. But not for the Mi-8MT/Mi-17!

 

The “shades” (Eduard Part 1 & 2 on colour etch) over the instrument panels are for early Mi-8T’s!  : (  : (  The Mi-17 shades are very different!

 

I don’t understand why Zvezda Part E16 and E17 were made by Eduard as Part 65 and 66! The original plastic parts are perfectly adequate for the kit. It is a complete waste of brass!!! 

 

And there are so many fine details which are simply perfect for photoetch technology which have not been made by Eduard. Sad! Very sad! Opportunity lost.

Actually Zvezda people were saying that many parts they don’t make since the aftermarket companies (including Eduard) will make it anyway so why should they try to make these very small parts from plastic!

 

Best regards

Gabor

Hopefully your comments and observations will help other AM mannufacturers get their brains in gear.

Marc.

[ya-gabor]

1 hour ago, serendip said:

Hopefully your comments and observations will help other AM mannufacturers get their brains in gear.

Marc.

 

I did write to Eduard with my comments on this photoetch. Dont think they will do anything, as usual it is far too late in the production process to change anything.

As for others . . .  good luck to them! Hope they make a more useful aftermarket.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

With “modern” times patience is very important. Trading with kits is not as it used to be a year or two years ago. It takes a lot of time for kits to arrive.

 

But the good news – at least here in Europe – is that the Annetra/AMK Mi-17 kit has arrived and is on sale at least in the MN-Modelar eshop. As anticipated and forecast it is around 70 Euro in price.  

 

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

Have to say that I am sorry! The Annetra/AMK Mi-17 kits at MN-Modelar sold out in one day. I am sure there are more on the way somewhere in a container ship. 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[mario krijan]

Huuh that is insane price! GWH Flankers and Fulcrums over 100 euros, Tamiya F-35 around 100 €... tough times for us 😞

[cruiz]

It is good news that the kit sold well, even if there are two more options; maybe we'll see a second run soon, hopefully with the markings planned for Annetra initially; I'm waiting to get one or two kits.

[serendip]

Whoops, missed it yesterday at MN-Modelar eshop.

 

Anyone know where they're available in the EU at this time?

 

Thanks in advance.

Marc.

 

 

[ya-gabor]

Hi Marc,

 

I am sure they (MN Modelar) will have it again sooooner or later. As far as I know Annetra will have it also soon. Have no idea where and how they sell. But I know that Annetra will be at the Moson show in April.

 

MN Modelar still has the Zvezda kit. They had it for about a month or more and at a discount price. I am not surprised that on Czech teritory the Czech (OK partly Czech) kit sold out in one day. 

 

Hi Cruiz,

 

The bad news for you in Mexico is that MN Modelar does not sell overseas. : (  : (     Sorry. But I am sure others will have it on sale also soon. : )  : )

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

[serendip]

22 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

Hi Marc,

 

I am sure they (MN Modelar) will have it again sooooner or later. As far as I know Annetra will have it also soon. Have no idea where and how they sell. But I know that Annetra will be at the Moson show in April.

 

MN Modelar still has the Zvezda kit. They had it for about a month or more and at a discount price. I am not surprised that on Czech teritory the Czech (OK partly Czech) kit sold out in one day. 

 

Hi Cruiz,

 

The bad news for you in Mexico is that MN Modelar does not sell overseas. : (  : (     Sorry. But I am sure others will have it on sale also soon. : )  : )

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

Thanks Gabor,

If anyone spots it for sale (the Annetra kit) do me a favour and let me know?

 

Regards all,

 

Marc.

[cruiz]

Thanks, Gabor; I'll keep an eye on my regular sources to get it.

 

On a different note, Aztec Models has released two decal sheets with several options for American operators (from the USA to Peru), in case anyone is interested.