Would you still build the ZM F-4 if you have the Tamiya F-4B?

[Charlie D.]

Nice! Love those Midway Phantoms!

[AD-4N]

On 1/9/2023 at 4:39 PM, ElectroSoldier said:

Me too.
I just started a Monogram F-4D.

Quite enjoying it so far.

 

You are correct, sir.  The Monogram F-4D, on in this case NF-4D, is a satisfying build.  

 

[ya-gabor]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:09 AM, Curt B said:

It's  been a long time since I've even thought about this thread...and I forgot that I'd even started it until I got the notice of a new post.  I've been in something of a model slump...I don't think I've touch a kit since one of my doggies went to the Rainbow Bridge...and that was in April.  Before that, I'd been bouncing from kit to kit, starting, but not completing anything.  I've even made it to the point of installing the engine intakes one both the Tamiya F-4B and the ZM F-4C.  Honestly, I didn't recall much difference between the two F-4 kits, except that the Tamiya kit MAY be just the smallest bit better fitting in some areas.  I've got WELL over a dozen kits that I've started  but not completed, the latest being an Academy A-10C.  My model room is a mess, and I need to get that sorted through before I even think about restarting any build!

 

And I've definitely decided that I'm going to build all of my ZM F-4 kits!  Eventually...

 

Hi Curt B,

 

I hope you managed to sort out few things on your workbench and the mojo is also back to do some kits!

 

Last weekend received the Zoukei-Mura F-4G from a friend as a present. Although there are numerous projects on my bench could not resist in starting some work on the G. I have my eye on an early WW bird (69 239) with traditional camo and tons of very bright white stencils, ever since I seen photos of it in (I think) Aircraft Illustrated in November 1978. (have absolutely no idea where I will get the markings for it, but . . . )

 

Have the Academy kit in Eduard box, also the Hasegawa E and (was it) B from early 1980’s as well as some Verlinden sets. . . Had a look in the box of the Academy and did not feel the urge to start cracking. The Hasegawas are in "long term storage".

They will have to wait!

 

(The only thing I like about the Meng F-4G kit is the way they made the engine exhaust ring from 4 parts and have all the fine details on the interior surface.)

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Janissary]

Just seeing this thread, it's interesting to me also. I am in for an F-4D and a late F-4E, but I don't have either kit yet. I had a ZM F-4D. When Tamiya F-4B came out, I sold it away thinking that Tamiya would release a D soon after (still waiting). Unfortunately, I am losing hope, and think we will not see a Tamiya D, just like we have not seen an F-16D. 

 

Anyway, I now have a renewed interest in ZM D. The engine bulge is weird in that if it was not pointed out, I would not have noticed it, but now I cannot unsee it. So a ZM kit would mean I have to fix that section. That fix, together with a 1% chance of a Tamiya D, is holding me back. So I decided I will not purchase the ZM D until I am ready to begin the build. 

 

Hear me out: If the ZM bulge is to be fixed, my first inclination would be to sand it down. The Hypersonic correction looks beautiful and I remember the work that went into it (template cross sections and comparisons with other kits). But is sanding it down a bad idea? I remember the bulge being so pronounced that you had to beef up the ZM fuselage from the underside not to create a hole in it. If I were sanding it myself, I would be eyeballing it. Just feels like with some aggressive but careful sanding, and with an eye on symmetry, it can be made look better than what it is now. I realize it all depends on the level of accuracy one wants, but cutting the ZM fuselage and gluing the correction feels too risky for me. Anyway, I guess just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. I have not seen anyone attempting this sanding option. 

 

 

Edited March 8 by Janissary

[GeneK]

1 hour ago, Janissary said:

The engine bulge is weird in that if it was not pointed out, I would not have noticed it, but now I cannot unsee it. ... Anyway, I guess just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. 

Try to "unsee" the bulge  -- it's not that significant  ... to most.

 

Gene K

[Ben Brown]

I've got the fuselage fix for the Z-M kit, but I'm debating whether or not I want to go through the effort to use it. Like Gene says, it's not very noticeable and I think it will be even less so if you're building a SEA or Europe I camouflaged jet. It seems like it might be more noticeable on a large area of a single, light color, like a Navy Gull Grey jet. There's a thread here on ARC that goes into a lot of detail about the fuselage shape and I seem to recall Jeffrey posting some in-progress pics of his fix. 

 

Re. the other available F-4 kits, I'm thoroughly enjoying the Z-M F-4E I'm currently building with Hypersonic's slat set. If I hadn't already spent far too much time and money on aftermarket to correct the Academy F-4B, I'd be all over the Tamiya one. I'll choose a Tamiya F-4D over the Z-M one, but I'm not going to wait. The Meng F-4E kit looks okay, but I don't like how they did the keel between the engines, so it's all Z-M for me. My multiple Hasegawa F-4s have all gone to someone else's long term storage. They're not bad kits (I've already built a ton of them), but the Z-M kits give a much more enjoyable experience.

 

Ben 

[Curt B]

@Gabor:   Hi Gabor, thanks for your thoughts on this topic.  Yes, i've  gotten over my modeling slump, but since then, I've still been bouncing around  from kit to kit, not completing anything.  I've not touched  the 2 in-progress F-4 kits I have, the Tamiya F-4B and ZM F-4C, but  I'm sure I'll get to them   The closest I've come to completing anything is an Academy A-10C, which is at the decal/weathering stage.  Hopefully, I'll push on with that soon and finally finish one.  I did try to pick up a previously started build on a GWH MiG-29 9-13, but then I made some serious errors.  I've abandonded that build, but have another duplicate kit on the way, as I really liked that MiG kit. 

 

i have both the Meng and ZM F-4G kits, but haven't started either.  Both have gotten good write-ups, the Meng despite the odd '3-D' on the heat shield.  The scheme of standard camo with bright white stencils sounds interesting.  Please let us know if you find the right decals, and when you start  your build.   

 

As of last night, my ADD method of modeling got me to start the 1/48 AMK MiG-31 BM, which I've had inn my stash since it first came out.  Amazing, huge plastic parts, but thus far, exquisite, Tamiya-like fit!

 

@Janissary: I've never noticed the 'bulge' in the short nosed ZM F-4 kits either, until pointed out, but frankly, they don't bother me.  The Academy A-10C that I have has a similar issue with bulges in the engine pods, but that  hasn't stopped my building of it.  I understand that ZM fixed this issue in their long nosed F-4 kits, and the A-10C 'pod bulge' its supposedly fixed by GWH, in their forthcoming A-10C kit, which is supposed to be released next week.  But these 'errors' are only what one makes of them.  Sure, that makes a kit with them less than perfect, compared to the real thing, but how much does it really detract  from the overall model?  To each their own, I guess.   

Edited March 8 by Curt B

[ya-gabor]

17 hours ago, Curt B said:

@Gabor:   Hi Gabor, thanks for your thoughts on this topic.  Yes, i've  gotten over my modeling slump, but since then, I've still been bouncing around  from kit to kit, not completing anything.  I've not touched  the 2 in-progress F-4 kits I have, the Tamiya F-4B and ZM F-4C, but  I'm sure I'll get to them   The closest I've come to completing anything is an Academy A-10C, which is at the decal/weathering stage.  Hopefully, I'll push on with that soon and finally finish one.  I did try to pick up a previously started build on a GWH MiG-29 9-13, but then I made some serious errors.  I've abandonded that build, but have another duplicate kit on the way, as I really liked that MiG kit. 

 

i have both the Meng and ZM F-4G kits, but haven't started either.  Both have gotten good write-ups, the Meng despite the odd '3-D' on the heat shield.  The scheme of standard camo with bright white stencils sounds interesting.  Please let us know if you find the right decals, and when you start  your build.   

 

As of last night, my ADD method of modeling got me to start the 1/48 AMK MiG-31 BM, which I've had inn my stash since it first came out.  Amazing, huge plastic parts, but thus far, exquisite, Tamiya-like fit!

 

@Janissary: I've never noticed the 'bulge' in the short nosed ZM F-4 kits either, until pointed out, but frankly, they don't bother me.  The Academy A-10C that I have has a similar issue with bulges in the engine pods, but that  hasn't stopped my building of it.  I understand that ZM fixed this issue in their long nosed F-4 kits, and the A-10C 'pod bulge' its supposedly fixed by GWH, in their forthcoming A-10C kit, which is supposed to be released next week.  But these 'errors' are only what one makes of them.  Sure, that makes a kit with them less than perfect, compared to the real thing, but how much does it really detract  from the overall model?  To each their own, I guess.   

 

 

Hi Curt B,

 

Good to hear that you are back at work with some kits! Have fun!!!  : )  : ) This is the most important!

 

The fact that Zoukei-Mura taken the step to correct the fuselage shows that this problem was not just a storm in a tea cup whipped up by some fanatic modellers.

I don’t think there are a lot of modellers who would be willing and / or have to skills to do the conversion with such resin parts. It is more likely that they would rather sand down a bit to “improve” the shape.

This is a bigger shape issue which should have not been there on a kit in the first place! It should have been noticed and corrected in design stage. But now we have to live with it. Fortunately they heard the voices and the long nose versions have it corrected.

It always reminds me of the crap Eduard MiG-21bis kit in 48 th scale some 12-13 years ago. They simply had no idea what so ever on differences between the older MiG-21MF and the late MiG-21bis aircraft. It is a similar shape issue (as well as a lot of other details) to this Phantom engine cover question. Most modellers simply did not see it (or did not want to see it, just as the manufacturer) others simply said it is good as it is and why should they do anything about it if the manufacturer did not care at all. Stenka from Cold War Studios produced a resin conversion for a correct nose but to make it look good is as much hard work as it is for this Phantom conversion/correction!

 

There are other “issues” if you can call it that, like the fact that the Zoukei-Mura F-4E / G kits have the Navy version of the ejection seat and not the USAF seat. But this is something easy to either replace with an aftermarket or completely ignore since little will be seen of it on a built kit, especially if the canopy is closed!  

 

Decals for the WW 69 239 aircraft?

I don’t think anyone, anywhere, ever made such decal so I will simply have to cut it out from masking tape and paint it on. For the stencils will have to look for a Microscale Phantom White Data set somewhere. Actually this particular plane had white stencils over dark areas and black over light surfaces. So . . .

Bigger problem would be to find more photos of this particular bird and preferably in colour. The period 1978 Aircraft Illustrated article had photos by Patrick J. Little and back in those days unfortunately part of the mag. was only in black/white, like the page with this photo report.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Curt B]

@Gabor: thanks for the detailed reply!  It so happens that I have the Eduard MiG-21bis kit that you wrote about.  I believe that I got it as part of a sell off by another modeler, and I was able to find that Cold War Studio correction set, plus a whole lot of other aftermarket stuff.  That kit sits with all my other unstated models.  The box is so full of stuff that the box lld barely closes!  And as you wrote, even though my modeling skills have improved some, the plastic surgery required to install the corrections remains frightening to me, and I'm not sure I'll ever decide to start building that one!

 

Thanks for pointing out the seat error in the ZMF-4G kit.  I'm quite sure that I would never have noticed that detail, however, I DID, for detail reasons, end up getting a set of the really nice 3D printed Air Force ejection seats from MCC, which are, in my opinion, truly spectacular. The only better seats, in my opinion, are by Sparkit Models, who make the Navy seats, but their prices are really prohibitive!

 

The Phantom with  the white stencils really looks cool, even in the grainy BW image you sent along.  Best of luck finding the decals you'd need.

 

 

[Ben Brown]

Like Curt, I never would’ve noticed the seats. I sort of automatically replace kit seats with resin any time I can.
 

If you want correct stencils for that F-4G, get Fundekals’ F-4 stencil sheet for depot-applied stencils: LINK. The tail codes and serial numbers shouldn’t be too hard to piece together from other decal sheets.
 

Ben

[Curt B]

Hey Ben, really cool to be helping Gabor!  This is why I LOVE this site!! 😊

[ya-gabor]

3 hours ago, Ben Brown said:

Like Curt, I never would’ve noticed the seats. I sort of automatically replace kit seats with resin any time I can.
 

If you want correct stencils for that F-4G, get Fundekals’ F-4 stencil sheet for depot-applied stencils: LINK. The tail codes and serial numbers shouldn’t be too hard to piece together from other decal sheets.
 

Ben

 

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for the info. Will try to look around for it, but most probably will try to get something at the Moson Show at the end of April. There are many companies represented there and of course vendors who could have something along those lines for me.

 

Have to say that I am an old fashioned buyer who like to see the given product in person when purchasing. The Moson Show is a perfect opportunity for this. We should have some people from US and also from South America for the show.

Of course I will only have time to look around if I dont have my own stand with my real 1/1 scale ejection seats. It all is still a question at the moment. We will see. : )   : )   : )

 

Till then I just get bits and pieces made for the Zoukei-Mura F-4 G. Prefer using my own hands as a 3D printer in making parts. I know there are some fantastic 3D printed seats on the market, but I am doing some work on the Zoukei-Mura seat in detailing it and converting to the USAF standard. This is what modelling should be about in my opinion! Its not as perfect as a 3D printed one, but it is the fruit of my work!

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Ben Brown]

Hi Gabor,

 

I understand. I like to see what I'm purchasing, too. I'm not sure if Fundekals go to shows, but fortunately, they have a good enough rep that you can buy sight unseen. 

 

The Z-M kit seats are very nice and are a great canvas for adding a lot of detail.  

 

Ben

[GeneK]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:54 AM, ya-gabor said:

This is a bigger shape issue which should have not been there on a kit in the first place! It should have been noticed and corrected in design stage. But now we have to live with it. 

Thanks, ya-gabor. I am happily living with it, and I hope you get/have gotten "it" fixed to your satisfaction. Since you have the requisite skills to work any and all issues, what was the your solution  ... to which kit?

 

Thanks,

Gene K

[ya-gabor]

Hi Gene,

 

I only have the new Zoukei Mura F-4G and as far as I can see the engine "issue" has been fixed by the manufacturer on this kit. Of the earlier versions I have both the very old Hasegawa F-4B and F-4E and the Academy F-4 in Eduard box. 

Have no plans for the early ZM F-4's, but by the looks of it a bit of sanding could be a fix, but then again I know that it is not a big issue, so  . . .

Rather get another ZM F-4E in future. 

 

Still looking for some white stencils to go with what I plan on my G. (but it is so far in the future for the decals, that I dont look that hard right now) Doing some seats and wheels at the moment to go with this build. 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Ben Brown]

Hi @ya-gabor,

 

If you want white stencils, I’ll repeat my recommendation for the Fundekals depot stencils I linked above. I’m using it right now on my current Z-M F-4E project, since it includes a lot of stencils for Hill Grey jets too. It’s not cheap, but it includes literally everything. It even has the landing gear strut and missile bay placards, which is a first. 

 

Ben

[RichB63]

Agree with Ben: the Fundekals is very, very impressive, although it doesn’t provide G specific markings. As the creator explains, he simply ran out of energy and time. However, the included slatted E option gets you 99% of the way there. Printing is by Cartograf.
 

Another very impressive offering is that from Speed Hunter Graphics, which does include G specific stencils for the chin pod and tail. They are printed by Microscale.

https://www.reidairpublishing.com/decals/early-phantom-stencils

There have been several other Phantom stencil releases over the years, going all the way back to Microscale’s from the late 1970s. They vary in quality, accuracy and availability.
 

But in my opinion, you can’t go wrong with Fundekals or Speed Hunter Graphics.

 

@Curt B, I apologize for contributing to the thread drift!

 

Rich

 

Edited March 16 by RichB63

[Curt B]

On 3/15/2024 at 6:07 PM, RichB63 said:

 

@Curt B, I apologize for contributing to the thread drift!

No worries!  It's nice to be  helping each other with stuff, on topic or not!!   😊 

[BWDenver]

If you really want to get into the weeds, I have just dropped a bit of information on the Phantom Ejections seats..

 

Jet AC ejection seats - Jet Modeling - ARC Discussion Forums (arcforums.com)

 

Regards....

 

Bryan

[BillS]

Gene K is bang on. Unsee it. He flew them, I was a maintenance officer on them and I still trying to figure out what’s so awful about the ZM C/D/J! I think the 40 something Monogram with a little tarting up still builds in to a nice replica.

[ya-gabor]

As anticipated it was not really possible to find any of the Fündekals at Moson 2024 Show. Have to correct myself, I was not able to find it. There were hundreds of traders and zillions of boxes full of books, decals and aftermarket parts. Simply impossible to go through it all. It is possible that the Phantom White Stencils decals were somewhere there but one would have needed a lifetime to go through everything.

 

Missed out even on Eduard Phantom stencils which was sold out by the time I got there. OK, it is for the Tamiya kit and not exactly an F-4G set, but at least some markings would have been possible to use from it. Oh well . . .

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Ben Brown]

3 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

As anticipated it was not really possible to find any of the Fündekals at Moson 2024 Show. Have to correct myself, I was not able to find it. There were hundreds of traders and zillions of boxes full of books, decals and aftermarket parts. Simply impossible to go through it all. It is possible that the Phantom White Stencils decals were somewhere there but one would have needed a lifetime to go through everything.

 

Missed out even on Eduard Phantom stencils which was sold out by the time I got there. OK, it is for the Tamiya kit and not exactly an F-4G set, but at least some markings would have been possible to use from it. Oh well . . .

 

Best regards

Gabor

If you don’t want to order direct from Fundekals in the US, it looks like The 48ers has the depot stencil sheet in stock. Link I highly recommend both the decals and The 48ers.

 

Ben

[ya-gabor]

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for pointing in the direction! I will do something about it when the time comes. For the moment I am still at the start of the build, dealing with some details.

 

While I don’t have the stencil decal, I did have a look at Fündekals instruction for the given stencil set and Oh boy what a great manual it is!!! Really fantastic research and background there!

 

Only wanted to have the story end with the Moson show.

The other thing I was looking for was the ResKit burner cans for the kit. Well, one of the vendors had a huge selection of ResKit products, really huge selection in all possible scales but no Phantom exhaust at all. I was there minutes before opening on Saturday and they were just unpacking the resins but there was none of the things I was looking for.  : (  : (  : (   Same as with the decal, time will come for this also.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Ben Brown]

Hi Gabor,

 

I bought the Reskit afterburners for my current Z-M build, but decided not to use them. The kit burner parts have a tab at the aft end that fits into a spot in the lower fuselage so everything is positively located. The Reskit burners don't have anything like this and I didn't want to have to engineer some sort of cradle to keep them in place. Plus there are no instructions on exactly where to make your cut in the burner cans to fit the Reskit parts, so there will have to be a lot of test fitting and adjusting before you permanently close up the fuselage. They do look great and I love Reskit's products, but these went well beyond my intention to try to use mostly plug n play aftermarket parts on this build.

 

Since I didn't really care very much about the interior details of the burner sections, I went looking for just some nozzles. I ended up going with some reasonably-priced ones from 3D Chute Expert from Asia that look great and install like the kit parts. If you don't want to order from Asia, The 48ers carry some from Detail & Wonder, that are also very nice. 

 

BTW, if you really want to go crazy on your kit, have a look at Detail & Wonder's landing gear struts. The detail is jaw dropping. 3D Chute Expert included a set of his gear struts with my last order. While they're not as "holy crap these are amazing!" as D&S's, they're still much better looking than the kit struts, which are overly simplified.

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

[sda1976]

about exhaust for ZM