Strange P-51 pics-lots of info added

[rotorwash]

I just scanned these three pics of a very strange (to me anyway) looking P-51. I'm not fixed wing guru or anything but this just looks odd. the note on the negatives says "P-51 modified with turboprop installation." The pics were taken May 3, 1968. I must say I do love the M18 gun pod and the M200 rocket pod though!

A quick check of the registration number took me here: P-51 N6167U history and photo. If this info is correct, she's a P-51D with a Turbo Cavalier engine. It appears she crashed or was destroyed in 1971. Anyway, if anyone knows why she would be outfitted with training weapons and be in the US Army Aviation Test Board negatives, I'm all ears.

Ray

Edit: I removed the reversed image

Edited February 10, 2010 by rotorwash

[Karaya-1]

Google "Cavalier Mustang" and you will get oodles of information.

>>Clicky the Wiki<<

-Kevin in Indy

[Len Lundh]

Ray,

Piper PA-48 Turbop Mustang III, later renamed Enforcer. If memory serves, two were built. Last time I was at Wright-Pat, which is almost ten years now, the Museum had one that was in storage awaiting restoration.

Len

[rotorwash]

Ray,

Piper PA-48 Turbop Mustang III, later renamed Enforcer. If memory serves, two were built. Last time I was at Wright-Pat, which is almost ten years now, the Museum had one that was in storage awaiting restoration.

Len

Kevin,

Thanks for the link.

Len,

Thanks for the info. I am curious that the Wikipedia article linked to above states the PA-48 was built in 1984 and this photo is from 1968. Is the Wiki article incorrect?

Ray

[Rigid Rotorhead]

I just scanned these three pics of a very strange (to me anyway) looking P-51. I'm not fixed wing guru or anything but this just looks odd. the note on the negatives says "P-51 modified with turboprop installation." The pics were taken May 3, 1968. I must say I do love the M18 gun pod and the M200 rocket pod though!

A quick check of the registration number took me here: P-51 N6167U history and photo. If this info is correct, she's a P-51D with a Turbo Cavalier engine. It appears she crashed or was destroyed in 1971. Anyway, if anyone knows why she would be outfitted with training weapons and be in the US Army Aviation Test Board negatives, I'm all ears.

Ray

Ray,

Here's some info which may provide insight into this strange beast, although I haven't done any real research into it personally:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/m...ead.main/89446/

Being that I live here in Dayton, I will try to find out more about whether or not this airframe is indeed in storage awaiting restoration. I visit the NMUSAF often, and I have a few contacts there in the Research Division. I am also in occasional contact with the Senior Curator, so I should be able to get some answers.

[Spruemeister]

The photo above is not a PA-48 Enforcer. Those were built by Piper, hence the PA number. The picture is the Cavalier conversion with a Dart engine. Its all in the Wiki article as posted above.

Rick L.

[Len Lundh]

Ray,

My bad, I believe. It's the Cavalier conversion, which eventually became the Enforcer after Piper got their hands on it. I completely overlooked the absence of the honking big exhaust that was on the starboard side of the PA-48. The aircraft also carried a differny r/n as the Enforcer. I'd have to dig deeper, however, to comment on the 1984 date -- seems too late for my memory.

Never try to be wise before breakfast.

As for what the Board was doing with it -- my guess is the obvious: testing, just as they did with any number of fixed- and fling-wing birds that never really stood a snowflake's chance of going into the Army inventory. 1968 would have been Nam-time, and there was a lot of what-iffing going on in the COIN world.

Of course, now I'm trying to be wise before lunch. Sigh.

Len

[rotorwash]

Thanks for the replies. Following the link from Ray I found the history of these two F-51D's which I also just recently scanned. Seems they were ordered by the Army as chase planes following the success of F-51D (44-72990) as the chase plane for the AH-56A. They were assigned serial numbers 68-15795 and 68-15796 and served as chase planes for other Army projects. Thanks again for all the replies.

Ray

[ST0RM]

Edwards AFB has one in their restoration yard, as of Feb 2009. I might have pics. BRB.

[Fred Garvin]

From Joe Baughter's site

"On November 4, 1970, the Dart-powered Mustang prototype was delivered to the Piper factory at Vero Beach.

At that time, the US was embroiled in the Vietnam War, and combat experience indicated that there was a need for a low-cost, high-performance close-support aircraft for use by foreign air forces obtaining MAP assistance. This project was given the name *Pave Coin*. In pursuit of production contracts under the *Pave Coin* program, the Piper company undertook a more ambitious Mustang conversion effort. One single-seat F-51D and one two-seat TF-51D airframe were fitted with the 2455 s.h.p. Lycoming T55-L-9 turboprop engine. The project was given the name *Enforcer* by Piper. The first Enforcer conversion was flown on April 19, 1971. Later that year, the USAF evaluated one of these Enforcers and confirmed the original performance claims, but did not show very much enthusiasm for the project.

Even though the USAF never saw any use for the Enforcer, Congressional pressure led eventually to a contract in September 1981 for Piper to construct two new prototypes for evaluation. They were known under the company designation of PA-48. The two PA-48 prototypes were given civilian registrations rather than military serial numbers, and were never given any military designations.

The PA-48 Enforcer bore only the slightest resemblance to the F-51D--only ten percent of the parts were in common. The fuselage was lengthened by 19 inches aft of the wing and larger tail surfaces were fitted. Power was provided by a Lycoming T55-L-9 turboprop. The familiar trademark Mustang ventral scoop was completely removed, and a large turboprop exhaust was fitted on the left-hand side of the fuselage just ahead of the cockpit. A Yankee rocket ejector seat was fitted in the single seat cockpit. Provisions for wingtip tanks were made, and ten underwing hardpoints were fitted. The fixed wing-mounted guns were removed, and all gun armament was carried within underwing pods. The two PA-48s first flew on April 9 and July 8, 1983 respectively, and the USAF conducted its evaluations at Elgin AFB and Edwards AFB during 1983/84. Gross weight was 14,000 pounds. Maximum speed was 403 mph and cruising speed was 363 mph. Service ceiling was 37,600 feet and combat radius (with two gun pods) was 469 miles.

The PA-48 Enforcer was unsuccessful in obtaining any production orders, and both prototypes were put in storage by the USAF in late 1986. One of them (N481PE) is now on display in the Annex building at the WPAFB Museum in Dayton, Ohio."

Went on a trip last October with the wife and kids and took a bunch of walkaround photos of the PA-48 (N481PE) on display at the R&D hangar at Wright-Pat in that same Euro paint scheme the A-7Ds used to wear The other one (N482PE) is in the restoration hangar at Edwards. Planning on posting them (along with a bunch of others) over at Prime Portal when I get the chance AND if Prime Portal resumes biz. Anyway, there's a good right up about the program there and the folks (mostly Vets) giving tours are very knowledgable about the aircraft there...except for one gal who was very, very politically driven in her comments...actually called her out on this.

ANyway, most of this is also found on the web.

[MikeC]

Interesting aircraft, and one I've wanted to model for a while - perhaps (with apologies to fans of the mighty Tweet) a "WIF" using some spare A-37 markings?

Anyway, in 1:48 it can now be done.

http://www.heritageaviationmodelsltd.com/c...ng-111-29-p.asp

(Main Heritage site http://www.heritageaviationmodelsltd.com/ )

HTH

[BrittMac]

Ray, do you remember the Mustang from the Rucker museum? I sure do. One of the highlights of my trips there (the dozens of trips). I read somewhere here that the Mustang was sold or something, which is odd to hear. It was really neat to see a Mustang in a non-USAAC scheme. I want to say that the last time I saw it, it had some white and orange on it, but it may be my poor memory forgetting the white and green.

There is an enforcer thread here somewhere, but it is probably several pages back. Its a neat read, and has a shot of it in the museum.

Edit: scratch me thinking the museum's mustang had white and orange. That was an Otter or Beaver hanging from the ceiling above the Mustang. Still can't put my finger on why I am not remembering the white and green scheme. I guess I will need to see a pic of it in the museum to refresh my memory.

Edited February 8, 2010 by BrittMac

[Jennings]

Tip tanks on a Mustang just look so wrong...

:)

J

[gaz262]

I just scanned these three pics of a very strange (to me anyway) looking P-51. I'm not fixed wing guru or anything but this just looks odd. the note on the negatives says "P-51 modified with turboprop installation." The pics were taken May 3, 1968. I must say I do love the M18 gun pod and the M200 rocket pod though!

A quick check of the registration number took me here: P-51 N6167U history and photo. If this info is correct, she's a P-51D with a Turbo Cavalier engine. It appears she crashed or was destroyed in 1971. Anyway, if anyone knows why she would be outfitted with training weapons and be in the US Army Aviation Test Board negatives, I'm all ears.

Ray

Looks like the second photo is a reversal of the third to me - hence no big, fat turboprop exhaust!

Great looking aircraft though!

Gaz

Edited February 8, 2010 by gaz262

[rotorwash]

Looks like the second photo is a reversal of the third to me - hence no big, fat turboprop exhaust!

Great looking aircraft though!

Gaz

Gaz,

You are correct. Doh! I should have paid more attention when I scanned the negs. These were large format negatives so each one was separate. Thanks for catching that.

Ray

[rotorwash]

Ray, do you remember the Mustang from the Rucker museum? I sure do. One of the highlights of my trips there (the dozens of trips). I read somewhere here that the Mustang was sold or something, which is odd to hear. It was really neat to see a Mustang in a non-USAAC scheme. I want to say that the last time I saw it, it had some white and orange on it, but it may be my poor memory forgetting the white and green.

There is an enforcer thread here somewhere, but it is probably several pages back. Its a neat read, and has a shot of it in the museum.

Edit: scratch me thinking the museum's mustang had white and orange. That was an Otter or Beaver hanging from the ceiling above the Mustang. Still can't put my finger on why I am not remembering the white and green scheme. I guess I will need to see a pic of it in the museum to refresh my memory.

Brandon,

Yep, I definitely remember the Mustang from the Museum. In fact, I visited her just a month or so ago with Brock, Jed, and Rich.

Ray

Edited February 8, 2010 by rotorwash

[Slartibartfast]

^^Not the same aircraft as those in the photos up top. No Cavalier tail and different paint scheme.

[rotorwash]

^^Not the same aircraft as those in the photos up top. No Cavalier tail and different paint scheme.

Bruce,

Sorry, Brandon was referring to the AH-56 chase plane. I know that cause it's the only one in the US Army Aviation Museum. I guess I should have been more clear. In fact, the Mustang at the Museum is neither the Cavalier or one of the two others I posted pics of. Sorry if I'm mixing you guys up posting pics of different Army Mustangs.

Ray

Here's a photo of her from her glory days:

Edited February 8, 2010 by rotorwash

[EDWMatt]

Great photos of the Turbo Mustang, Ray!

David Lindsay of Trans-Florida Aviation was quite a promoter, and reportedly brought the Turbo Mustang to Rucker for a series of demonstration rides in '68 or '69, hoping to sell it to the Army. That's probably why there are pics in the Test Board archives.

My friend Dick Murphy was the crew chief on the Army Mustangs at Edwards. The history of the F-51 with the Army is rather interesting. William Sufranic, the Chief of Maintenance at ASTA, was a big Mustang fan, and with the need for a high-performance chase for the AH-56 program, lobbied pretty hard to get a Mustang. He had a friend in the LA area that owned a P-51, and an ad-hoc "flyoff' was arranged between the P-51, a T-28B, an OV-1C and a YOV-10A from China Lake. The YOV-10 was eliminated pretty quickly. It had the original small 331 engines, and was pretty tired and one engine kept overtemping. The OV-1 was also inferior to the Mustang. The T-28 was superior in rate of climb and acceleration, but inferior in top speed, and the Army could not obtain any more airframes, so Sufranic made arrangements to buy the Mustang. It was an ex-RCAF F-51D 44-72990, registered N6322T. It was operated briefly in its civilian scheme at Edwards, but attracted too much attention. It was sent to Aero Sport at Chino, CA, for overhaul and repaint in an Army scheme. At Aero Sport, it received a Cavalier canopy and a new instrument panel with 2-inch engine gauges.

In anticipation of AH-56 testing, the Test Board purchased two Cavalier Mustangs from Trans-Florida, as an add-on to an FMS contract. When it became clear the Board wasn't going to receive AH-56's, the Cavaliers were transferred.

In the words of Murph, the Cavaliers were "pure junk", with numerous workmanship and systems issues. As the AH-56 program wound down, they were disposed of pretty quickly. One (795) ended up with the Marines at China Lake with 105mm recoilless rifles mounted on the wingtips!

990 continued to be operated until 1978, but became increasingly difficult to maintain, and was retired to the museum at Rucker.

In a weird twist of events, we looked at obtaining Enforcers at AEFA to replace our T-28s. Our commander at the time had flown 990 and was interested in obtaining a modern Mustang. The Enforcers were at Edwards at the time (an interesting story in and of itself...), and we went down to take a look at them. It quickly became clear that the aircraft was too much of a "kludge" to be able to be operated reliably for any length of time. They used surplus Chinook engines with custom propeller gearboxes that had to be torn down and inspected every 25 hours, and had Skyraider propellers with the tips sawn off. You could look right up inside the hollow blades!

[B-1 Nut]

Hey.....I know that guy.

JED

[Aggressor Supporter]

Strange looking Mustang variant. I prefer the original look.

[internationalblue]

Intersting photos and I suppose I would like the "last Word"

You have several airplanes of different types, and Mustang identities being what they are, I would like to clarify some things.

First The pictured plane is N6167U, allegedly 44-63775, listed as lost in a crash in Hawaii in Nov 1945 but turning up as a serial used to identify an airplane that was ex Swedish, then Nicarauguan, before going to the Cavalier Company and being re-engined. This plane was extensivly photographed, and was as far as we know broken down and modified later as the first(?) Cavalier, N201PE for the enforcer program. What happened to this one is conjecture...did it become a new plane as a Piper PA-48...?

Unknown.

In any case there were two dart airframes...N6167U and VH-UFO, a sepearte modification done in Australia on a CAC built Mustang A68-187. This one was never flown and lied around for years before the Mustang Industry, always hungry for parts and peices snapped it up. Restored and modified again its now a beautiful TF-51D and currently flying in Texas.

A note on the vertical tails, as 67U had a Cavalier tail, and UFO a stock "D" tail. The Cavalier tail is actually a NAA modification done to the "D" during explorations looking for the perfect tail for the P-51H. The Cavalier "cap" on the fin really looks good in my opinion, as do the tip tanks!

There were "4" Enforcers 201PE (gone), a two seat "TF" 202PE (crashed, then ?) and then 481 and 482PE both PA-48 Piper Enforcers of which one is at Edwards and one at Wright Pat.

Cavalier T Mk 2 and Mustang II were both very successful airframes with airframes supplied to Indonesia, El Salvador, Bolivia as well as the US Army. The planes were and are interesting parts of the Mustang lineage...

VH-UFO or A68-187 today....

[rotorwash]

Thanks for the extra info and welcome to the forums. I changed the title a bit so as to reflect the additional images I added of the F-51s. I left the main title the same so folks wouldn't think it was a new thread.

Ray

Edited February 10, 2010 by rotorwash

[EDWMatt]

Bruce,

Sorry, Brandon was referring to the AH-56 chase plane. I know that cause it's the only one in the US Army Aviation Museum. I guess I should have been more clear. In fact, the Mustang at the Museum is neither the Cavalier or one of the two others I posted pics of. Sorry if I'm mixing you guys up posting pics of different Army Mustangs.

Ray

Here's a photo of her from her glory days:

I recently did a couple scans of 990 for Brock. Here they are. Taken in '77-'78, right before its retirement. That's Dick Murphy, the crew chief, performing an engine run right after the new "Transport Merlin" (Merlin 600-series) had been installed.

[rotorwash]

Matt,

Very cool. Thanks for posting those.

Ray