Steven Leeds Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Hey All, I'm starting on a Monogram Texan and would like to know if there are any Acrylic alternatives to the popular laquer/enamel NMF paints out there? Keep in mind this is a 10 dollar kit and the kids routinely sit at the bench with me (ages 2 and 5). I build for fun and am only trying to get close to what the enamel/laquer finishes can do. Any experiences or tips would be appreciated. Cheers, Steven Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volzj Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 I find most acrylic NMF substitutes to have horrible adhesion. Even good old Polly Scale doesn't like to stick as well when it's a metallic. Your best bet would be a Gunze color, followed by Tamiya. It still won't compare to the likes of Alclad, but it's about your best option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 you could also use real aluminum, with some foil adhesive. the ultimate NMF without the fumes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
model_madness Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 you could also use real aluminum, with some foil adhesive. the ultimate NMF without the fumes. Sorry to butt in so to speak, but can you explain if its kitchen foil you are describing and what the simple ( is that the word ?? ) process for creating a BMF is? |Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steven Leeds Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share Posted January 29, 2007 The main reason I'm looking into the acrylic alternative is really the cost and the fact that the kids occasionally test fly the kits for me when I'm not looking or go inside for a minute. Since peeing out the back door of the garage is no longer an option I sometimes have to go inside and risk being asked, "what are you still doing out there" I have been just working on low cost kits like Monogram/Revell etc. They're quick, easy and if they get ruined it's no big deal really. When I get a chance to tackle the better kits in the stash I'll start playing around with the real stuff. I'm just looking for something that will look fairly good on the shelf. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matt Roberts Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Okay here is a stupid way I have done acrylic NM finishes..... First put down a coat of Tamiya flat aluminum, as a final finish I cannot stand it as it always seems to be very 'grainy' and rough finish. Note: I'm a brusher....I hate my airbrush THEN use the Polly Scale or railroad Polly S natural metal finishes. It seems that the Tamiya seems to act like a primer and holds the smoother Polly Scale/Polly S colors. The Polly S is named stuff like 'Platinum Mist' (an Amtrak color) and Santa Fe. So if you are not a railroad fan the colors may make no sense. I have also begun to use Warhammer colors for detail painting (Boltgun Metal etc) I have not yet used them for a large cover coat as they seem to be a bit thicker than the Polly S paints I am using now. Eventually I'll have to switch if and when the Polly S railroad colors are dropped like the Polly Scale metalics were. I'd avoid the MM Acryl stuff as it just seems 'wierd' color wise, though I did kitbash a bottle into the metallic blue green of a WW II Japanese a/c this weekend. HTH Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Old Blind Dog Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Tamiya acrylics are probably your best bet; they spray very nicely and adhere quite well; they cure solidly, can be masked, buffed (with SnJ Powder) and Futured. I've used Chrome Silver and Flat Aluminum with good results in the past (there are also some more metallics available in the smaller 10 ml. bottles such as two or three different shades of Titanium). Gunze has an extensive line of acrylic metallics as well. Their Silver Gloss Metallic is quite good. Polly Scale makes some very good-looking acrylic metallics which are available in their Railroad Colors Series (available in large 1 oz bottles). Especially useful is ATSF (Santa Fe) Silver, as well as Stainless Steel and Flat Aluminum. If you use PS metallics, first put down a solid coat or two of primer (such as Engine Black and a coat of Clear Gloss). Give the paint a lot of time to cure; it should be buffable (within reason) and look halfway decent (less "grainy" than the Tamiya). The finish will be rather fragile. And, as mentioned above, Bare Metal Foil may also be an option. HTH Cheers Old Blind Dog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Sorry to butt in so to speak, but can you explain if its kitchen foil you are describing and what the simple ( is that the word ?? :wacko: ) process for creating a BMF is?|Cheers Yup, plain old kitchen foil it is. Go to Michael's or some other craft type store and get some foil or leaf adhesive. The stuff I found at Michael's was Mona Lisa brand gold leaf adhesive. It comes in a medium sized jar. lay a piece of foil flat and liberally coat it with the adhesive (try to avoid pools and bubbles) the adhesive goes on white and dries a slightly cloudy clear. then with a sharp (the sharper the better) #11, cut a piece slightly larger than the area to foil (on large 1/48, I do each panel, on smaller 1/48 or other scales, a couple panels at once) lay the foil, adhesive side down, onto the model and begin to burnish it down from the middle of the panel out. I find a q-tip works well. also, a wooden or plastic cuticle pusher (in the cosmetics section) is good for getting around small details and into panel lines. then, once nicely burnished down, use the sharp #11 and cut along the panel lines and peel off the extra. you can use a little rubbing alcohol or nail polish remover to get any extra adhesive off the model. you can either go shiny side up or dull side up, but i have found that the adhesive sticks a bit better to the dull side so go shiny side up. if you want a less reflective finish, when you are done (or panel by panel in different directions for variation) give it a rub down with some 000 steel wool. you can also buy pre-prepared bare metal foil, has the adhesive on it, but it is kinda thin (prone to tearing) and much more expensive. kitchen foil is cheap, and the bottle of adhesive is not expensive either. HTH! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smithery Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 An excellent acrylic paint for NMF is Citadel. They're the paints the Warhammer guys like to use. Thin them with Tamiya thinner, and they'll spray beautifully. IMHO, Mithril Silver is an excellent choice for aluminum lacquer finish. It's what I used on a recent project. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
T-bone Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Mithril Silver is an excellent choice for aluminum lacquer finish. That finish looks great! From using Mithril silver on LOTR figures, it does appear to be finer grained than Tamiya XF-16. I am going to have to give Mithril Silver a try -- that is if I can pry the bottle out of my son's hands! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dswoofie Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) An excellent acrylic paint for NMF is Citadel. They're the paints the Warhammer guys like to use. Thin them with Tamiya thinner, and they'll spray beautifully.IMHO, Mithril Silver is an excellent choice for aluminum lacquer finish. It's what I used on a recent project. Any idea what these brush like? Need to find a good one for brushing... By the way, that mirage looks just sweet... Karl. Edited January 30, 2007 by dswoofie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steven Leeds Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 Thanks for all the replies. The Citadel looks really nice in that photo. That's a nice looking model. I'm going to give both the Tamiya and Citadel a shot and will report back on the results. Cheers, Steven Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matt Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Any idea what these brush like? Need to find a good one for brushing...By the way, that mirage looks just sweet... Karl. Citidel acrylics brush really well, almost as good as PollyScale. I have nearly a full set of metallics just for brushing details with, as I can't get on with brushing Tamiya. Cheers, Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smithery Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) Any idea what these brush like? Need to find a good one for brushing...By the way, that mirage looks just sweet... Karl. Thanks guys. Karl, I find the Citadel brush well for small areas, but I wouldn't want to brush paint an entire aircraft with them right out of the bottle. Keep in mind silvers are very weak colors, and are best put on top of a black undercoat (as was the case with the Mirage....Tamiya X-1 gloss black to be precise). Anytime I have tried brush painting larger areas, I find that hiding the brush strokes has been difficult. The one downside to acrylics. If you are going to try brush painting large areas, I would suggest trying to thin the paint with Future, since it has excellent self-levelling properties. I have done the same with Vallejo paints to good effect, but haven't tried it with the Citadel yet. As an aside, Chainmail was used for the accents on the Mirage, and I have a bottle of Bolt Gun Metal as well. Out of the bottle, Chainmail makes an excellent raw aluminum. Edited January 30, 2007 by smithery Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Edgar Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Sorry to butt in so to speak, but can you explain if its kitchen foil you are describing and what the simple ( is that the word ?? :wacko: ) process for creating a BMF is?|Cheers If you're going to the Milton Keynes show, on Sunday, ask, at Little Cars' stand, about his foil adhesive; it's water-soluble, brushable, or air brushable. Brush it onto the shiny side of kitchen foil, leave it to go clear (and tacky,) then burnish the foil onto the surface. It works perfectly on flat, or single-curved surfaces; multiple curves need multiple pices, slightly more fiddly. I have to declare an interest, though; I make it, and he sells it. And, no, I'm not about to divulge the formula; I took months working out how to do it. Edgar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Walker Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 IMHO, Mithril Silver is an excellent choice for aluminum lacquer finish. It's what I used on a recent project. That's fantastic looking. Very nice NMF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mlicari Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Keep in mind silvers are very weak colors, and are best put on top of a black undercoat (as was the case with the Mirage....Tamiya X-1 gloss black to be precise). This is the first time I've heard this, and am intrigued. Is gloss black good for all silvers? What happens if it's flat black? I'm curious to try this, as I'm in the same boat in terms of needing to use acrylics only, including for painting aircraft in NMF. B) Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmike Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 An excellent acrylic paint for NMF is Citadel. They're the paints the Warhammer guys like to use. Thin them with Tamiya thinner, and they'll spray beautifully.IMHO, Mithril Silver is an excellent choice for aluminum lacquer finish. It's what I used on a recent project. Nice. I use Citadel a lot for WH40K figures and detail painting (actually so does my wife Lori as well). How is durability of the paint? B) MikeJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J.C. Bahr Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Hey guys, Do like I did and drop Testors an e-mail telling them they need to bring back the formula that was used in the old Polly S Metalline series. Those were the best acrylic metallics and there hasn't been anything like them since IMHO. Oddly enough though, I got a reply back from a lady there that 'claimed' that it was originally discontinued because there were "problems" with the formula! She wouldn't elaborate as to just what those "problems" were, which I find strange considering (as I said above) they were some of the best. Nevermind the fact that their current acrylic metallics in the Modelmaster range are next to worthless! B) Perhaps if enough people bug them about it, they'll seriously look into it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmike Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Interesting! I still reckon Tamiya AS-12 is the best short of Alclad, though it is not acrylic. Citadel's metal range is a most excellent substitute (check Kevin's mirage for proof of that!) chainmail - used as BMF Mithril sivler - aluminium lacquer Bolt gun - gunmetal B) MikeJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smithery Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 (edited) This is the first time I've heard this, and am intrigued. Is gloss black good for all silvers? What happens if it's flat black? I'm curious to try this, as I'm in the same boat in terms of needing to use acrylics only, including for painting aircraft in NMF. :) Mike I'm no expert, but my understanding is that you want to spray as thin a layer of paint as you can get away with. I refer to silver as a "weak" color, in that it does not have a very strong opacity, and if sprayed on top of colored plastic (or on top of other colors), there is a risk of that color impacting the tone of the paint. I vary my undercoat based on the effect I want. Highly polished aircraft start off with gloss black. If I want a more weathered look, flat black will be my basecoat. Grey is sometimes used as well, to give varied appearance to the silver. Basically, if you choose your basecoat right, and spray very thin coats, you can end up with subtle tonal differences without spraying more than one color of paint. It's obviously more work to mask when you do it this way, but the effects are worth it. How is durability of the paint? Mike, in order to compare acrylics to acrylics, I'd put the durability of Citadel metals above PollyScale, but not quite as good as Tamiya acrylic metallics. I thin the Citadel with Tamiya thinner down to the consistency of water (25% paint, 75% thinner), so I can spray super thin coats. Citadel paints DO NOT like rubbing alcohol, so stick with the good thinner. The silver finish does not rub off on your fingers through normal handling (something that frustrates me to no end with PollyScale). It accepts masking tape very well after about half an hour curing time, with no marring of the finish. I am even able to scooch decals into position with tweezers, without damaging the finish. And it has a wonderful sheen when sprayed, so I don't need glosscoat prior to decals. I do find that Tamiya acrylics have better adhesion, but at the cost of chunky appearance. I've never liked the look of Tamiya acrylic metallics. They're just too grainy looking IMHO. All of the above said, I still wish I could use Alclad, but until I can either purchase or build a spray booth, with a baby in the house, enamels and lacquers are not welcome in the house. IMHO, the Citadel metallics give me the best compromise for metallic finishes. :lol: Edited January 31, 2007 by smithery Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Old Blind Dog Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Hey guys,Do like I did and drop Testors an e-mail telling them they need to bring back the formula that was used in the old Polly S Metalline series. Those were the best acrylic metallics and there hasn't been anything like them since IMHO. Oddly enough though, I got a reply back from a lady there that 'claimed' that it was originally discontinued because there were "problems" with the formula! She wouldn't elaborate as to just what those "problems" were, which I find strange considering (as I said above) they were some of the best. Nevermind the fact that their current acrylic metallics in the Modelmaster range are next to worthless! Perhaps if enough people bug them about it, they'll seriously look into it. I assume you're talking about the old PolyS LATEX color line and not the early Polly Scale aqueous acrylics? Often, people tend to confuse the names; using PolyS when they mean Polly Scale. In fact, there were issues with the very early Polly Scale metallic formulae (clumping, lack of adhesion etc), but they sure did come in a lot of shades (I'm still hoarding half a bottle of Anodized Blue Metal against the day I do the big Tamiya Zeke). Apparently when they started making Polly Scale they figured they could just suspend the same pigments in the new carrier and it didn't work very well. Too bad! PolyS had some fantastic shades including different shades of burnt, weathered and flat aluminum, bright silver, stainless steel etc etc etcl I agree that the old PolyS Latex metallics were very good; but I think it highly doubtful Testors would invest any time or money in bringing them back. As demonstrated above, there are still a number of good options for those who want to use acrylics for NMF, and perhaps we should invest our time and energy in more realistic goals. Cheers Old Blind Dog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmike Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 he silver finish does not rub off on your fingers through normal handling (something that frustrates me to no end with PollyScale). It accepts masking tape very well after about half an hour curing time, with no marring of the finish. I am even able to scooch decals into position with tweezers, without damaging the finish. And it has a wonderful sheen when sprayed, so I don't need glosscoat prior to decals. Kevin Thanks for the info. I use Citadel metallics for all manner of purposes, applied with a brush and spray other colour often, thinning with meths or distilled water. I will give this a try for certain though, perhaps on my Hobbyboss P-47D which is currently undercoated white. Now I wonder how shiny/dull that result will give? :) MikeJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chuck1945 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I assume you're talking about the old PolyS LATEX color line and not the early Polly Scale aqueous acrylics? Actually Polly Scale had its own range of 'Metalline' metalic colors, these were quite good, but were discontinued about 3-4 years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mmaker Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I've used Citadel colours Mythril Silver as basic and Boltgun Metal as shadows on this big scale fantasy figure with excellent results.Keep in mind that all metallics are brushed over airbrushed Citadel's Purple and colors thinned with pure water! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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