Greek F-16s

[geedubelyer]

...

Oops! Double post...

Edited May 6, 2007 by geedubelyer

[foxmulder_ms]

Wonderful pictures. Thanks...

I just wanted to add smt. I believe the heavy weathering mainly because of lighter paint since turkish ones don’t look as much weathered as Greek ones. May be, because they have a darker color and different type of paint.

[jefropas]

I know Italy's ADF's have faded ALOT since they got em a few years ago, the 2 colors are almost the same in some pics, reminds me of a USN TPS jet.........It's the climate, period.

Jeff

[MickeyThickey]

Could it also be that the CFT's do not have the Have-Glass paint?

The heavy weathering doesn't have much to do with the high-tech paint - early F-16s are similarly dirty. HAF Mirages and Phantoms are also filthy. It's just the environment, and the fact that the shades are fairly pale, so the dirt shows up more.

[Clare]

Great pics. Thanks from a Small Air Forces fan. Absolutely wonderful, especially with the CFTs.

Clare

[dakleton]

Awesome pictures. Thanks for posting.

The hi-res pics are perfect reference for my development CFT's. Hope to cast them before July.

[Ruud]

Hoi

The HAF Block 30's and 50's are very weather indeed. But they are older and much more faded. That is the big thing i notice about the -30's and -50's of the HAF is that they really loose a lot of the color when comparted to newer paint. The -52's get weathered quickly and the scheme gets darker.

later

Ruud

[Ben D Bus]

Great photos Stellios, but what do they threaten the Turks with, most seem to have no 'winders (for ruining some-ones whole day).

Maybe if they carried them, they might comply a little quicker.

Or maybe they've just run out of Raki like me.

IAN

[pollie]

Great photos Stellios, but what do they threaten the Turks with, most seem to have no 'winders (for ruining some-ones whole day).

Maybe if they carried them, they might comply a little quicker.

Don´t worry, they have jets carrying them, there just a bit camera shy I guess. I think most of the Blk 52 pics were taken at Souda Bay in the western part of Crete. There is another base in the eastern part (closer to Turkey) with F-16s carrying the ´real thing´.

[pollie]

The HAF Block 30's and 50's are very weather indeed. But they are older and much more faded. That is the big thing i notice about the -30's and -50's of the HAF is that they really loose a lot of the color when comparted to newer paint. The -52's get weathered quickly and the scheme gets darker.

I think the Greek only park their aircraft in a HAS overnight, they are outside for most of the (flying) day. With such a climate, my colours would fade too

[Heater]

The main reason for this extensive weathering is the excesive use of the aircraft. It's not uncommon, in a greek squadron, each aircraft to fly twice a day. I remember during my military service in one of the AUP squadrons, when they had 7 aircraft (the rest were under upgrading) they easily flew 12-14 sorties a day!!! :D Plus, twice a week the have night ops as well. So easily an aircraft can fly 3-4 sorties per day (day/night ops) Add to that the fact that they have week long QRA's on islands where the salt can do a lot of damage to the paint and there you have it. Haf aircraft are a nightmare to paint and weather!!!! :huh:

[Ruud]

Hoi,

Dang, that is logging a lot of hours on those airframes then... No wonder both Turkey and Greece keep buying so many new Vipers while countries such as Holland etc., just upgrade their Vipers and fly on. (Of course both Greece and Turkey had older aircraft to replace too)

later

Ruud

[pollie]

No wonder both Turkey and Greece keep buying so many new Vipers while countries such as Holland etc., just upgrade their Vipers and fly on. (Of course both Greece and Turkey had older aircraft to replace too)

I am sure the Greek and Turkish AF don't log more hours per airframe than, for example, the Dutch. With exercises/low flying training in Canada and CONUS (five or ten flighthours resp. just to get there) and, since 1993, peace keeping/CAS missions over former Yugoslavia and Afghanistan (between 4 and 8 hours per mission) Dutch F-16s have logged their share of hours. Also the media has reported about decreasing serviceability making the few operational F-16s fly even more to keep all pilots current.

Both Greece and Turkey haven't bought Vipers to replace Vipers but indeed their older equipment. And, of course, then there is that little thing called the Aegean arms race.........

[Eli Raphael]

Poly orea megale file!

[viperbite]

Bravo Pics!

Greek camo and the heavy weathering look so nice to me...

[Heater]

pollie i'm not saying that the greek F-16's log more hours that the dutch ones. All i'm saying is that the dutch vipers log long hours during training excersises abroad, something that is not happening on a regural basis, where the greek vipers (and in general the HAF aircraft)log these hours in a day in day out basis. For example a pair of aircraft on QRA can be scrambled up to 3 times a day, plus the flight from the mather base to the QRA base. So with at least 1 hour long flights, twice per day you can see that during a week a viper can log 14 flight hours plus a total of 2 hours travel time from - to the mother base for each leg, and you have 16 hours per aircraft per week. Which i think is a lot, considering the fact that these flights are "operational" meaning that the airframe receives more structural stress when you constantly pull max negative-positive G's for an entire week twice a day, than flying straight and level patrol missions for 4 hours. On the other hand i've seen pics of dutch F-16's where the colour was peeled off of the wing and you could see the metal underneath!!!!

Time to go to work on my BLK-52+ now....dang ghost scheme...see it at a different angle and it changes colour completely!!!:)

[pollie]

So with at least 1 hour long flights, twice per day you can see that during a week a viper can log 14 flight hours plus a total of 2 hours travel time from - to the mother base for each leg, and you have 16 hours per aircraft per week.

Heater,

I hope the Greek don´t fly that much. If they would fly 40 weeks a year (probably much more since they have QRA) and 16 hours a week that adds up to 640 flight hours per airframe per year. That means the first Vipers delivered around 1988 have 12.000 flighthours? I really don´t think so

Yes, some HAF aircraft will reach sixteen hours a week, but not always and not all of them! If they would, they would need a logistical organisation five times as big as they have now, and new jets every 12 years!

I have been to a couple of Greek airbases, and I´ve seen the jets parked outside in the sun inbetween flights. I believe that´s the main reason for them being so faded. I don´t believe it´s the salt from the sea, because many more countries are located near the sea and their new jets don´t look faded (RAF Typhoons for example). Do the Greeks wash their jets periodically? Here in the NL, our F-16s are up for a wash one time every 30 days. Also, ours get ´touched up´ with fresh paint now and then, making them look weathered too. Our jets that spent some time in Afghanistan really look bleached.

[mmaker]

Do the Greeks wash their jets periodically?

Thats the answer to our questions!

[pollie]

Thats the answer to our questions!

Yeah, you can make fun of that but washing the jet is actually a requirement in the RNLAF. A corrosion inspection is included in the washing procedure carried out every 30 days. If it goes overdue for 5 days, the jet is grounded.

[Heater]

Thats the difference pollie. You ground the aircraft if the inspection is 5 days overdue...we just patch them up and keep flying them. As for the hours logged...look at the pic eli posted. It says "40.000 hours" and if i remember correctly that was 2 (2005) years ago and just from one squadron, the 346 sqn which flies blk-30's, and reinstated into active status in 1990, when the second batch of F-16's blk-30 were delivered. Which means that in 15 years they have logged 40000 flight hours divided by 15 (1990-2005) = 2666.66 flight hours per year. Divide that by 40 (weeks as in your example) = 66.6 hours per week. Ofcource one has to take into account that not all squadron's aircraft fly every day every week, due to maintenance, etc...so you can see that on average the true airframe time can be near the 16 hours per week for some aircraft and a lot les for another aircraft.

[pollie]

Hi,

346 Mira has 40.000 accident free hours (that is a remarkable achievement for a unit operating a single engined, highly agile fighter). So I assume they still have the original 20 Peace Xenia I F-16s. So 40.000 hours dived by 20 aircraft is, on average, 2000 hours per airframe after 15 years of use. More or less the same as over here.

But that has little to do with the original question: even Greek aircraft which are almost brandnew show severe signs of weathering.

[pollie]

double post

Edited May 8, 2007 by pollie

[pollie]

No wonder both Turkey and Greece keep buying so many new Vipers while countries such as Holland etc., just upgrade their Vipers and fly on. (Of course both Greece and Turkey had older aircraft to replace too)

Greece initiated the Falcon Up programme in the mid-nineties to extend the service life of the Block 30 Vipers. I am assuming that, with the experience they gained from that programme, they will start upgrading the Blk 50 and 52 aircraft too (in xx years from now).

[Heater]

pollie, the 346 sqn started with 20 aircraft but iirc they had two accidents so they are with 18 now. Well anyway we got a bit off topic As you said the original question is the weathering the AF birds show. And if you think the f-16's are dirty.....wai till you see the Phantoms!!! They are on a category on their own!!!:):)

[A.C.Acikgoz]

We use them a lot ....

You know Turkey pilots violate Greek Airspace 20-25 times a day.

Imagine how many times do they have to take off-land

fill up every tank

check every system -cause from 20-25 cases many as much as 8-10 ends in hard dogfights cause turkish disobey to leave Greek airspace-.

Other reason is that they fly over sea with too much salt and land in airfields that runway extents into sea.

anyway.....

heh.. funny... if it is true that TuAF jets "violate" your airspace and your jets have to fly, the same number of TuAF jets need to fly... So they need to have same maintenance procedures etc etc etc... same sea, same weather, same conditions but ours are not look as dirty as yours...

please tell the truth.. greek goverment "disobey" the rules of Lausanne Treaty dated 1923... according to 13th article, greek goverment will never built any military bases to Aegean island... if you need to remember please check out this Hellenic Resources Network site:

http://www.hri.org/docs/lausanne/part1.html

and wikipedia link for everyone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne

so, if you build airfields to those islands, it is possible to damage your aircrafts, because many of those islands are really small.. if anyone check out aegean sea island from google earth, it is easy to see which one has those airstrips....

and, your "megalo idea" (or something like that) having Istanbul and reunion of Byzantian Empire is only a dream for you...

and here is not a place for politics.. we are talking about modeling... I really got bored about those greeks using every place they can find for writing something about Turkey...

Edited May 8, 2007 by A.C.Acikgoz