kstater94 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 (edited) Boeing Airbus Appeals/Protests Senate Hearings Doesn't really matter It's our military that ultimately suffers the longer we debate... As all this crap continues to churn day after day, and year after year one of my best friends climbs into an aging KC-135 and puts his faith into Mr. Boeing that this 50's era jet is going to bring him home safe. just pick a $#% jet and build it already! At this point I don't care if it's American, British, French, Russian, Brazilian, or Chinese! Just get something thats NEW Ok I'm done I feel better now Back to life Edited March 1, 2008 by kstater94 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Sander Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 I haven't read enough about the competing designs to have an informed opinion on what's the better platform, but I think some folks here have raised a really good point that the obligation of the military is to pick the most effective choice. This is the Defense Department, not the Works Progress Administration.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tarlucan Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 “as in the airline world the A330 is pretty much considered a dog performance wise†Simply not true. The early A340’s were certainly underpowered (but hugely fuel efficient also), the engines on the A330 result in a very different aircraft. Airbus consider it their best design which given the success of the A320 family says something. The basic concept is a generation ahead of the B767 in terms of airframe and especially avionics. Speaking as a European who flies the A320 but is about to convert to the B737-800, the difference is considerably in favour of the former. Frankly a new set of furry dice in a Ford Capri still leaves you in a Ford Capri! The USAF are getting the better product (as hopefully are the RAF). The economic and political implications are a matter for debate of course. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buck Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 (edited) Purely IMHO, nothing official... I'm pretty happy with the selection. I'm also pretty sure the 135's gonna be around for a good while longer but I hope to log at least a little time in the KC-45A. I've got my fingers crossed! :D Ahui hou Mark Edited March 1, 2008 by Buck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boman Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 I think it is completely ridiculos that the American military always tries to buy domestic. I don't have a problem with it if it is the better product, and can see the benifits clearly. HOWEVER, the USAF holds the competition to decide on the most capable aircraft to fufill the requirement. This is exactly how it should be. Come to think of it, this is actually what US free enterprice is all about :D God point Will Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 This is the Defense Department, not the Works Progress Administration.... I thought you said you had stopped drinking? Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Can anyone besides me see how the USAF is in a no-win situation here? Pick Boeing and half of the people criticize you for picking the less capable, 30 year old airplane (regardless of its bells and whistles) and/or of being in the pocket of McBoeing. Pick Airbus and the other half accuse you of forfeiting American jobs (which it doesn't) and for supporting the French (which it sort of does, but then so does buying Brie and Beaujolais Nouveau, both of which I regularly do without an iota of guilt). They get criticized for not subscribing to "America First" despite the fact that major portions of all Boeing airplanes are made in Japan, China, Europe, Australia, FRANCE (CFM engines), etc, etc. In short, when the USAF (for once in it's life) made the correct choice of the more capable, more modern, more supportable tanker platform, they're going to get it from both sides. The sizes of the egos involved here (and I mean "here" in every sense, including the very local to this board) astound me. When we're mature enough as a group to set aside our silly prejudices and look at hard, cold facts, the Airbus is clearly a better platform. The facts speak for themselves. That's why the USAF picked the Airbus, and I think they should be congratulated for having the cojones to do so in the face of all of the above criticism they knew would be hurled at them. Just my little old opinion... J (card-carrying Boeingophile) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
siesta3 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Before all of you start throwing this LAWSUIT out into the frey ... theres this little thing last year that people have forgetton... a former BOEING CEO and a former aquisition officer for the US Air Force have been sent to prison over the Boeing KC-767 program. The acquisition officer had steered and made the numbers for Boeing very appealing to the US Air Force in exchange one of her kids gets a job at Boeing - this brought red flags up as the Boeing offer was a sure deal and brought it to a standstill! I for one am a Boeing fan... but I love all planes in general. So before you all start protesting about the airplane design or where it will actually be built - major components of the fuesalage of the 787 are built in Japan, the robotic arm of the Space Shuttle is built and was designed in Canada, of and the T-45 Goshawk which trains hundreds of our Navy/Marine pilots is a foreign design. Just my two cents... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
umgriz Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 (edited) Before all of you start throwing this LAWSUIT out into the frey ... theres this little thing last year that people have forgetton... a former BOEING CEO and a former aquisition officer for the US Air Force have been sent to prison over the Boeing KC-767 program. The acquisition officer had steered and made the numbers for Boeing very appealing to the US Air Force in exchange one of her kids gets a job at Boeing - this brought red flags up as the Boeing offer was a sure deal and brought it to a standstill!I for one am a Boeing fan... but I love all planes in general. So before you all start protesting about the airplane design or where it will actually be built - major components of the fuesalage of the 787 are built in Japan, the robotic arm of the Space Shuttle is built and was designed in Canada, of and the T-45 Goshawk which trains hundreds of our Navy/Marine pilots is a foreign design. Just my two cents... Last year? The deal was cancelled in 2003 and the sentences were handed out in 2005. And he wasn't CEO, he was the CFO, and the job wasn't for her kids, it was for her. And believe me, we (Boeing) are still paying for it. Stuff you guys will never know about. The lease deal was a crock, it was cooked up by some crooked people, those people have been dealt with. The company has taken a huge reputation hit and probably will for years to come. And for those of you who maintain that the Airbus is 'clearly' the more capable choice, I couldn't disagree with you more. But no one here will have their opinion swayed, so it's no use arguing. I fully expect a protest to be filed, as the precedent was set after the CSAR-X was awarded. The days of the DOD acquistion process working quickly, without protests from the loser, are now gone. Edited March 1, 2008 by umgriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 88 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 And for those of you who maintain that the Airbus is 'clearly' the more capable choice, I couldn't disagree with you more. How so? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
siesta3 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Last year? The deal was cancelled in 2003 and the sentences were handed out in 2005. And he wasn't CEO, he was the CFO, and the job wasn't for her kids, it was for her. And believe me, we (Boeing) are still paying for it. Stuff you guys will never know about. The lease deal was a crock, it was cooked up by some crooked people, those people have been dealt with. The company has taken a huge reputation hit and probably will for years to come.And for those of you who maintain that the Airbus is 'clearly' the more capable choice, I couldn't disagree with you more. But no one here will have their opinion swayed, so it's no use arguing. I fully expect a protest to be filed, as the precedent was set after the CSAR-X was awarded. The days of the DOD acquistion process working quickly, without protests from the loser, are now gone. The request comes as Boeing faces new challenges as a result of an admission last week by the former No.2 Air Force acquisition officer, Darleen A. Druyun, that she had favored Boeing in granting billions of dollars in contracts in an effort to get jobs for herself and her family. I stand half corrected... besides the Seattle times... a new book came out .. Boeing Vs Airbus... very good stuff...!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
umgriz Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 The request comes as Boeing faces new challenges as a result of an admission last week by the former No.2 Air Force acquisition officer, Darleen A. Druyun, that she had favored Boeing in granting billions of dollars in contracts in an effort to get jobs for herself and her family. I stand half corrected... ;) besides the Seattle times... a new book came out .. Boeing Vs Airbus... very good stuff...!!!! Ok, I stand half-corrected as well.....had not heard about the "for her family" part. Thanks siesta! In response to Suer-Hornet 88....seriously? You're posting a graphic published by the Mobile Press-Register....that is widely believed to have originated from NGC/EADS? You don't see any credibility/objectivity issue there? That being said....this is my final post on the issue, since as I said before, no one's opinion will be changed. Good day all! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 88 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 (edited) Ok, I stand half-corrected as well.....had not heard about the "for her family" part. Thanks siesta! ;) In response to Suer-Hornet 88....seriously? You're posting a graphic published by the Mobile Press-Register....that is widely believed to have originated from NGC/EADS? You don't see any credibility/objectivity issue there? That being said....this is my final post on the issue, since as I said before, no one's opinion will be changed. Good day all! I found it on Airliners.net, I did not know who the originator was. Edited March 1, 2008 by Super Hornet 88 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Sander Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 I thought you said you had stopped drinking?Regards, Murph Perhaps it's some sort of placebo/anticipatory thing as I eagerly await my week off with prescription painkillers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spongebob Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Everyone's missed the REAL reason the A330 won...the Air Force's fascination with side stick controls!! The C-17 and B-2 have sticks, but the KC-45A moves it too the side! Yess! Just like the F-16 and F-22! A330 Cockpit A330 Cockpit #2 Spongebob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Sander Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 In response to Suer-Hornet 88....seriously? You're posting a graphic published by the Mobile Press-Register....that is widely believed to have originated from NGC/EADS? You don't see any credibility/objectivity issue there? No more than in the Seattle Times coverage from last night and today, which is downright (though darkly) amusing in its sheer hyperbole. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spongebob Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 For those who wonder, got this from another site, but the first few pages pretty much spell out why NGC/EADS won. KC-X White Paper HTH Spongebob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Julien (UK) Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 As soon as the winner is announced, the race is on to see how fast the loser can get a lawsuit filed to have the decision reversed. Bottom line: US military should buy US equipment whenever possible.Darwin As with all military should they not get the best available no matter where its from. For exampke UK got Awacs, apache, etc, US got our 105mm light gun, rapier etc, and there are many more. Just my 2p Julien Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete "Pig" Fleischmann Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Everyone's missed the REAL reason the A330 won...the Air Force's fascination with side stick controls!! The C-17 and B-2 have sticks, but the KC-45A moves it too the side! Yess! Just like the F-16 and F-22!A330 Cockpit A330 Cockpit #2 Spongebob Wow. I never get 2 rolls with my crewmeal. Pig Quote Link to post Share on other sites
otis252 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 You are correct about Ms. Druyan, let's not forget Mrs.Tom Dashel, wife of the former Majority leader of congress and lobbyist for Boeing. Remember that "lease" deal. Just wondering. Hummm. Chuck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buck Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Wow. I never get 2 rolls with my crewmeal.Pig Your missing out Sir, come take a ride with the tanker toads... We're famous for good chow on long flights. Sushi platters, Thai food, and so much more.... We don't mess around. I'm sure the new KC-45A will only enhance our food service capability. Another bonus, you don't have to worry about getting your flight meal wedged in the aft section of canopy! ;) The only things I'm not looking forward to... Becoming a flight attendant & 226 "Space A" seat releases. Ahui hou Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Dershem Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 (edited) N/T Edited March 2, 2008 by Mike Dershem Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buck Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Ahhh, I got nothing. Just give me a jet that I dont have to worry about it sh*tting out the right side hydraulic system over bad guy land or force me to egree the jet because a TR decides to catch fire and fill the cockpit with death smoke. Jeff I'm gonna get in trouble for this... Come fly a Guard bird Jeff, pretty solid rides (touches wood!) Be careful out there dude... Fly safe! Ahui hou :D Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tarlucan Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Rusty old boy I've never had the slightest desire to "blast up to 410", even in an empty A320. The A321 certainly does struggle more than a A320 but the advantages in daily operating of the FBW system, FPV, 3B autoland, auto throttle, GS mini etc, far outweigh in my opinion. Recently had to practise stalling in the sim and had to switch off half the flight control computers to achieve it! These aircraft exist to make commercial AT safer and more cost efficient, the 737 is a generation behind. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Sander Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 But pax comfort is better in the 'Bus. I hate Boeing seats. Always have, always will. Never noticed a difference. Both too narrow for me (between a size 48 and 50 chest depending on the uniform, and that doesn't include the shoulders) - don't recline far enough, and head rest isn't high enough. I'll take my GRUEA-7 - if I'm going to be that uncomfortable, I might as well be able to log it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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