Pssst! Wanna buy an Avro Arrow Ejection Seat?

[JohnS]

There's one for sale on EBay.

Ebay ejection seat

It's raised speculation about an Avro Arrow being saved from the scrap heap. The story is at the following link.

My link

Edited December 18, 2011 by JohnS

[Litvyak]

Very intriguing, especially the CTV link.

Too bad I didn't win the Lotto Max yesterday, I'd be buying it right now and then having it displayed at the Langley museum...

[Flyboyf18]

Avro Arrow conspiracy......

This should get interesting.

[Litvyak]

The bad part of this? It's still early morning, so I'm starting the day ticked off from thinking about the Arrow! :<

Conspiracy or just simple idiocy, it killed our future as a dominant force in the aerospace industry. We could've been in the NHL, but everything after that, with the possible exception of the Dynavert, was beer league.

[Neo]

I would buy it but i cant afford the shipping cost

[Bigasshammm]

250k seems a bit much no?

[Charlie Cheetah]

Now that is pretty cool, nicely written article also, definitely puts another log on the conspiracy theory fire. He forgot to mention about so many of the rngineers that worked on the Arrow project ended working for BAC on the Concorde.

[Charlie Cheetah]

double post, sorry

Edited December 18, 2011 by Charlie Cheetah

[rm20886]

Interesting development. I hope the whole truth is unvailed one of these days. I agree with Litvyak that the seat should find its way into a museum here in Canada. I didn't win the lottery either so I can't help.

Rob

[Litvyak]

Canada would be ideal but I wouldn't be upset if it ends up at a museum elsewhere, either. So long as it ends up in a museum and not in somebody's basement will nobody will get to enjoy seeing it.

[-Neu-]

The bad part of this? It's still early morning, so I'm starting the day ticked off from thinking about the Arrow! :<

Conspiracy or just simple idiocy, it killed our future as a dominant force in the aerospace industry. We could've been in the NHL, but everything after that, with the possible exception of the Dynavert, was beer league.

Except it didn't... it liberated it.

Canada has the third or fourth largest aviation industry in the world now, and possesses the world's leading innovators in Carbon fiber technology (Magellan-Bristol, The Boeing Winnipeg facility and Bombardier), Engine Technology (P&W Canada) Landing Gears (Heroux-Devtek), simulators (CAE) among others. Instead of focusing on primes, Canada's aerospace industry became an incredibly diversified and flexible. Sure there was short term pain with the loss of Avro. But what emerged from its ashes was far more competitive and serves Canada's interests better.

Frankly, cutting the Arrow came three years too late. It was inferior in performance to the F-4 Phantom and at a ridiculous cost to the Canadian taxpayer. I could see no way you can support this purchase, except to call it corporate welfare for an inefficient Canadian Aircraft industry.. which would have delayed its eventual transformation into what it is today.

[CorsairMan]

Frankly, cutting the Arrow came three years too late. It was inferior in performance to the F-4 Phantom and at a ridiculous cost to the Canadian taxpayer. I could see no way you can support this purchase, except to call it corporate welfare for an inefficient Canadian Aircraft industry.. which would have delayed its eventual transformation into what it is today.

As I was building mine I noticed that it looks far too much like a paper airplane to be a truly innovative design.

[-Neu-]

As I was building mine I noticed that it looks far too much like a paper airplane to be a truly innovative design.

It wasn't a truly innovative design, say like the Cutlass, the Convair deltas, or the Oxcart program. Certainly it was an improvement from the F-102... but really gets lost in the crowd with all the other great designs from this period (the Crusader III, the Phantom, XF-108 Rapier, EE Lightning.) Stacking it up besides them (and considering the ruinous cost of the Arrow), its performance actually seems fairly unimpressive (inferior range, maneuverability, speed.)

However the Orenda Iroquois engine was probably one of the top engines in the world at the time. If anything the Arrow was a great example of a British plane in the 1940s and 50s: Great engine, mediocre aerodynamic design.

[RiderFan]

Except it didn't... it liberated it.

Canada has the third or fourth largest aviation industry in the world now

And yet we buy every single one of our military aircraft from other countries. Heck, we don't even have an aerospace industry strong enough to build a home grown replacement for the Tutor. We had to buy something from the UK. Save for the little commuter planes, our airlines buy most of their aircraft from boeing.

Bombardier makes good snowmobiles though...

It wasn't a truly innovative design, say like the Cutlass, the Convair deltas, or the Oxcart program. Certainly it was an improvement from the F-102... but really gets lost in the crowd with all the other great designs from this period (the Crusader III, the Phantom, XF-108 Rapier, EE Lightning.) Stacking it up besides them (and considering the ruinous cost of the Arrow), its performance actually seems fairly unimpressive (inferior range, maneuverability, speed.)

However the Orenda Iroquois engine was probably one of the top engines in the world at the time. If anything the Arrow was a great example of a British plane in the 1940s and 50s: Great engine, mediocre aerodynamic design.

1) First a/c designed with digital computers being used for both aerodynamic analysis and designing the structural matrix (and a whole lot more).

2) First a/c design to have major components machined by CNC (computer numeric control); i.e., from electronic data which controlled the machine.

3) First a/c to be developed using an early form of "computational fluid dynamics" with an integrated "lifting body" type of theory rather than the typical (and obsolete) "blade element" theory.

4) First a/c to have marginal stability designed into the pitch axis for better maneuverability, speed and altitude performance.

5) First a/c to have negative stability designed into the yaw axis to save weight and cut drag, also boosting performance.

6) First a/c to fly on an electronic signal from the stick and pedals. i.e., first fly-by-wire a/c.

7) First a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even the first F-16's had this.

8) First a/c designed to be data-link flyable from the ground.

9) First a/c designed with integrated navigation, weapons release, automatic search and track radar, datalink inputs, home-on-jamming, infrared detection, electronic countermeasures and counter-countermeasures operating through a DIGITAL brain.

10) First high wing jet fighter that made the entire upper surface a lifting body. The F-15, F-22, Su-27 etc., MiG-29, MiG 25 and others certainly used that idea.

11) First sophisticated bleed-bypass system for both intake AND engine/exhaust. Everybody uses that now.

12) First by-pass engine design. (all current fighters have by-pass engines).

13) First combination of the last two points with an "ejector" nozzle that used the bypass air to create thrust at the exhaust nozzle while also improving intake flow. The F-106 didn't even have a nozzle, just a pipe.

14) Use of Titanium for significant portions of the aircraft structure and engine.

15) Use of composites (not the first, but they made thoughtful use of them and were researching and engineering new ones).

16) Use of a drooped leading edge and aerodynamic "twist" on the wing.

17) Use of engines at the rear to allow both a lighter structure and significant payload at the centre of gravity. Everybody copied that.

18) Use of a LONG internal weapons bay to allow carriage of specialized, long-range standoff and cruise missiles. (not copied yet really)

19) Integration of ground-mapping radar and the radar altimeter plus flight control system to allow a seriousstrike/reconnaissance role. The first to propose an aircraft be equally adept at those roles while being THE air-superiority fighter at the same time. (Few have even tried to copy that, although the F-15E is an interesting exception.)

20) First missile armed a/c to have a combat weight thrust to weight ratio approaching 1 to 1. Few have been able to copy that.

21) First flying 4,000 psi hydraulic system to allow lighter and smaller components.

22) First oxygen-injection re-light system.

23) First engine to have only two main bearing assemblies on a two-shaft design.

24) First to use a variable stator on a two-shaft engine.

25) First use of a trans-sonic first compressor stage on a turbojet engine.

26) First "hot-streak" type of afterburner ignition.

27) First engine to use only 10 compressor sections in a two-shaft design. (The competition was using 17!!)

Edited December 18, 2011 by RiderFan

[Litvyak]

RiderFan said it best.

Not innovative? It was on the bleeding edge of the entire world.

[RiderFan]

There's one for sale on EBay.

Ebay ejection seat

I figure I have to sell 16,700 decal sheets to be able to afford this... :(

[Litvyak]

And yet we buy every single one of our military aircraft from other countries. Heck, we don't even have an aerospace industry strong enough to build a home grown replacement for the Tutor. We had to buy something from the UK. Save for the little commuter planes, our airlines buy most of their aircraft from boeing.

Also, this is what I meant when I said it's beer league, not NHL.

We could perhaps be at a level where we'd be building our own fifth-gen fighter (or 6th?), but at the very least, we *should* be able to build our own trainers!

[-Neu-]

And yet we buy every single one of our military aircraft from other countries. Heck, we don't even have an aerospace industry strong enough to build a home grown replacement for the Tutor. We had to buy something from the UK. Save for the little commuter planes, our airlines buy most of their aircraft from boeing.

honestly, this is kinda ridiculous. Would you rather Canadian industries be inefficient and produce every single plane type possible at unaffordable costs? Of course not. We have probably one of the most efficient and aerospace innovative industries in the world. There is so much to be proud of. Part of the reason why the 787 Dreamliner is so advanced is due to Canadian innovations in Carbon fiber manufacturing. Pratt and Whitney Canada is one of the most advanced engine manufacturers in the world. We're a HUGE player... its actually insulting to suggest otherwise.

Bombardier makes good snowmobiles though...

And one of the best single aisle jets in the world today, the Bombardier C-Series.

As for the specific points about the CF-105's Innovation. Sure its got a alot of "innovations." I never doubted that. I however don't think its an truly innovative aircraft however. Most of what made it special was a feature of its engine, not the aerodynamic design. Its overall performance is not exceptional.

Actually I think that was the problem with the Arrow; Avro was allowed to gold plate the design with these "innovations" causing it saw huge levels of cost inflation for marginal improvement. However all jets in this period had innovations. I don't have time to go through this list, but these are the ones that stick out to me as being particularly egregious.

3) First a/c to be developed using an early form of "computational fluid dynamics" with an integrated "lifting body" type of theory rather than the typical (and obsolete) "blade element" theory.

Uhhh, that seems to be a pretty wide interpretation of what an "early form" of CFD is. I think alot of planes could claim the same prize before the mid 1960s. If you're talking about the area rule then no, there were a number of aircraft that incorporated that before the Arrow. Furthermore I'd argue the Cutlass had a lifting body first... or a bunch of other aircraft like the XP-67 Bat.

8) First a/c designed to be data-link flyable from the ground.

No, that is not the case... Semi Automatic Ground Environment equipped aircraft were able to do that before the Arrow.

9) First a/c designed with integrated navigation, weapons release, automatic search and track radar, datalink inputs, home-on-jamming, infrared detection, electronic countermeasures and counter-countermeasures operating through a DIGITAL brain.

Uhh, no... that system wasn't Canadian anyways; it was the American made Hughes Electronics MA-1 FCS, which would be fitted into the Convair Deltas and other interceptors. However that never came to be because the system was so expensive that it was scrapped by the Americans This was one of the reasons why the Arrow was cancelled.

18) Use of a LONG internal weapons bay to allow carriage of specialized, long-range standoff and cruise missiles. (not copied yet really)

How is this even an innovation? What weapon other than the Genie would it need to carry? And what air launched cruise missile was being considered in the late 1950s?

19) Integration of ground-mapping radar and the radar altimeter plus flight control system to allow a seriousstrike/reconnaissance role. The first to propose an aircraft be equally adept at those roles while being THE air-superiority fighter at the same time. (Few have even tried to copy that, although the F-15E is an interesting exception.)

Never even heard of this... unless it was a function of the American MA-1.

20) First missile armed a/c to have a combat weight thrust to weight ratio approaching 1 to 1. Few have been able to copy that.

Highly suspect claim, given it never had its avionics suite and radar installed.

[Scooby]

Except it didn't... it liberated it.

Canada has the third or fourth largest aviation industry in the world now, and possesses the world's leading innovators in Carbon fiber technology (Magellan-Bristol, The Boeing Winnipeg facility and Bombardier), Engine Technology (P&W Canada) Landing Gears (Heroux-Devtek), simulators (CAE) among others. Instead of focusing on primes, Canada's aerospace industry became an incredibly diversified and flexible. Sure there was short term pain with the loss of Avro. But what emerged from its ashes was far more competitive and serves Canada's interests better.

Frankly, cutting the Arrow came three years too late. It was inferior in performance to the F-4 Phantom and at a ridiculous cost to the Canadian taxpayer. I could see no way you can support this purchase, except to call it corporate welfare for an inefficient Canadian Aircraft industry.. which would have delayed its eventual transformation into what it is today.

It set our aviation industry back, there was a mass exodus of experience and talent to the US after the program was shut down. It certainly set us back, we'd be higher then 4 if not for the cancellation. Many of those people went on to design great aircraft and lead large aviation cooporations as CEOs.

How can you even compare it to the Phantom? Both were developed at the same time and neither flew against the other.

My dad worked on the program.

[-Neu-]

Also, this is what I meant when I said it's beer league, not NHL.

We could perhaps be at a level where we'd be building our own fifth-gen fighter (or 6th?), but at the very least, we *should* be able to build our own trainers!

Or bankrupted us. If we proceeded with production (including having to support the development of the Hughes MA-1 and the Sparrow II) the program would have approached 2~3% of GDP. Yes... fighter program would have taken up most of the Defence budget today. This was a program to counter an almost non-existent threat compared to that of Nuclear missiles.

And Litvyak, seriously, the CF-105's performance was not exceptional compared to its contemporaries like the Crusader III and the Phantom II. It wasn't really bleeding edge... just a good fighter among many.

What I find somewhat galling is that we made this out to be some sort of national tragedy. It was a national tragedy before it got shut down.. This was one of the cases where government made the right decision, and it should be seen as that.

[-Neu-]

It set our aviation industry back, there was a mass exodus of experience and talent to the US after the program was shut down. It certainly set us back, we'd be higher then 4 if not for the cancellation. Many of those people went on to design great aircraft and lead large aviation cooporations as CEOs.

Sure and I said that in my initial post.. But as a result our industry restructured and became the juggernaught we are today. We became a model that countries like Japan try to emulate by obtaining subcontracts for the primes.

I know it was a sad event and it caused much pain. But I really don't like the mythologizing that goes along with the program. I think we're much better off understanding its place in history.

[phantom]

I'd get it but I all ready have a CF-101 Voodoo ejection seat with a Canadian tire massage thingie on wooden rollers in the basement. And really? who needs two?

quarter million? right, I'll get right on that.

[Litvyak]

No, I think it *was* a national tragedy.

The cancellation of the aircraft itself, too, but more the subsequent loss of brains.

[Stratospheremodels]

The bad part of this? It's still early morning, so I'm starting the day ticked off from thinking about the Arrow! :<

Conspiracy or just simple idiocy, it killed our future as a dominant force in the aerospace industry. We could've been in the NHL, but everything after that, with the possible exception of the Dynavert, was beer league.

Hi, though i am 100% with you as being an Avro Arrow fan and i too miss what could have been if they had built this one in series or even exported it, you completely forget that Bombardier (the company once known as Canadair was bought by Bombardier) is now the 3rd LARGEST civilian aerospace company IN THE WORLD (just behind Boeing), and might even make it to number 2 !

I visited these guys (their illustration department, at the time they were just starting to transition from airbrush paintings to computer 3D renderings) just over a decade ago when they where still 'only' making Challenger jets and some drones and CL-215 and 415 water bombers, the Regionnal jet was only a prototype at that time, well now they are all over the luxury jet market and their regionnal jets are used all over the world, and now entering in direct competition with Boeing and Aerospatiale with jetliners. All that in such a short time (and who remembers that Bombardier used to make only snowmobiles, when that market is now only something like 5% of their total market and their high speed trains and metros are being sold all over the world (while we still don't even have a single high speed train here).

So there is definite cause for celebration on the aerospace front, we are now giants ! This is not even the NHL, this is the champions league !

Stephane

Stratosphere Models.

Website: http://www.picturetrail.com/stratospheremodels

Edited December 21, 2011 by Stratospheremodels

[Stratospheremodels]

On a side note, i am proud to say i once worked for Bombardier many years ago (albeit for a short time: i was replacing someone who was on sick leave). i was in charge of the blueprint and reproduction department on the evening shift. Basically all the engineers and supervisors and various assembly workers came to my office to obtain copies of the blueprints for production and engineering, it was great work and the end of the production line was just right out my window, which was even more great.

I got to go inside the cockpit of a Regionnal Jet (the cockpit was completely assembled and power to the instruments was "on", but all the passenger area was empty and unbuilt, so you could see all the internal structure of the fuselage. That's also the place where i saw an aircraft 'levitate' for the first time (those who are working in the aerospace industry on larger aicrafts will know what i mean), and that was much fun to watch.

I am not really worried for the brain drain of 1959, most of the people who worked on the Arrow were foreign engineers from the UK, Germany and elsewhere at the time, only the people who assembled and milled the aicraft were local people. Though Bombardier, and initially Canadair also mostly relied on engineers who also came from abroad, these days and when i did my short stint at Bombardier, several of the engineers i worked with came from South America, Arab countries, Europe, and so on, very nice people, there were many Québécois engineers working there who did their engineering course at l'École Polytechnique de l'Université de Montréal, and now there are even more who were trained here if not the majority, if not at Poly then at the ÉTS, Mc Gill here in Montréal, etc.

And of course like else someone noted, we have CAE Electronics (simulators)(and Rolls Royce engines just the other side of the street), Héroux Devtek (landing gears), Pratt & Witney, Bell Helicopter, all in or around Montréal. Bombardier have factories around the world both for its trains and metros as well as for aircraft manufacturing. The one thing i regret though is that they kind of forgot about the bush plane market when they bought De Havilland (the twin Otter), which was an excellent aicraft, and the Chinese and Eastern Europe have now taken the market that the Twin Otter used to have and it's a good market too in its own right, albeit smaller than that of jetliners obviously. When you think that the Regionnal Jet was initially based on what was (back then) only an inflated version of the Learjet that got dropped by both Learjet and a Swiss company and picked up by Canadair and it lead to a whole family of aircrafts, building on versions of the same fuselage that progressively got longer (and with longer wings) to give all the Challenger, Global Express and Regionnal Jet families, it's amazing what they produced from what was initially a relatively small 'stretched' Learjet, and they are now a giant multinational corporation. Oh, and the low emission new engine developped by P&W Canada was first used on the White Knight Two, the mothership for the SpaceShip Two spaceplane.

Stephane

Stratosphere Models.

Website: http://wwww.picturetrail.com/stratospheremodels

Edited December 21, 2011 by Stratospheremodels