Finally; a new 1/72 Phantom

[Quixote74]

11 minutes ago, MoFo said:

The Israeli F-4E is one of the first deliveries from the 1973 war.  These were delivered without slats, so it should be the same as the previous F-4E kits, apart from the decals.  (Boo!  I want my slat wings, damnit!)  One odd thing - my understanding was that this first batch was delivered still in SEA camo and with USAF tail codes (but Israeli roundels), but the box art depicts standard Israeli camo and squadron markings.  Israel's F-4 were retrofitted with slatted wings pretty soon after the war, though I don't know exactly what the timing would be for hard wing/slat wing and SEA/desert camo.  I'd probably check my references before following the kit markings, just to be sure.

Happy to be corrected/learn something new, but my understanding was that the original F-4E Kurnass deliveries to Israel were in their specific color scheme, only wearing temporary US markings during early stateside testing and on their delivery flights.  The first 50 Kurnass airframes were delivered starting in 1969 so pre-dated the slat mod (in fact I have read that one Israeli airframe, which later wore the giant sharkmouth, was fitted with a fixed set of slats as part of McDD's aerodynamic tests before adopting the definitive slat configuration for production & refits).

 

The F-4Es used by Israel delivered in SEA camo and with US tailcodes were rushed transfers during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, known as Operation Nickel Grass.  I recall reading that at least one may have been hurried into combat before its stars & bars were overpainted.  Supposedly the green scheme gave rise to the nickname "toad" for the non-desert scheme airframes.

[Wild Weasel V]

Israel's F-4Es were first delivered in September 1969 and were in their standard scheme of FS 33531/30219/34227 upper surfaces with FS 35622 undersurfaces. As mentioned, the only F-4Es delivered to Israel in the SEA scheme were those ex-USAF aircraft that were part of Operation Nickel Grass starting in mid-October 1973. These were all coded 3xx by the IDF/AF and were a mix of slatted and unslatted aircraft. Most were allocated to Squadron 69 but some went to the other units as attrition replacements. They were indeed nicknamed 'Karpada' or Toad because of the darker camouflage. At least one retained SEA colours up until the mid 1980s, even after the slat upgrades and refuelling probe were installed.

 

According to the Double Ugly books, Kurnass 162 in the new Finemolds issue was built as F-4E-44-MC 69-7549 McAir Ship #3991. It was delivered to Israel in April 1971 under the Peace Patch order. It was also a MiG Killer shooting down an Egyptian MiG-21 on 23 October 1973 using an AIM-9D. It was destroyed in a ground accident on 20 April 1974 so may never have received the slat mod. It was allocated to Squadron 119 so the kit markings are correct for the time.

 

The fixed slats on the famous sharkmouthed Kurnass 187 were a result of the IDF's interest in McDonnell Douglas' Agile Eagle programme. It actually flew combat missions in this configuration during the Yom Kippur War such was the need for aircraft.

 

I hope Finemolds do the decent thing and tool up a slatted wing for the kit - it'd open up a huge number of options considering the length of service and the air forces operating them. I don't hold out a lot of hope; Hasegawa seem fixated on repopping their F-4EJ Kai with only limited releases of the slat wing. The recent F-4F is the first time it's returned since about 2017!

 

At least it'd be nice if there was a conversion set like those for the 1/48 Zoukei Mura F-4E. The Revell F-4F probably has the best outer wings but are now hard to find at a reasonable price and it's somewhat a waste for just eight parts.

[Quixote74]

7 hours ago, Wild Weasel V said:

At least it'd be nice if there was a conversion set like those for the 1/48 Zoukei Mura F-4E. The Revell F-4F probably has the best outer wings but are now hard to find at a reasonable price and it's somewhat a waste for just eight parts.

 

Using the Revell F-4F as a slat wing conversion donor (outer wings and slat actuators) wouldn't actually have to be that wasteful - since the F tooling was based on the earlier RF-4E, the redundant 'hard wing' outboard parts are still on the sprues for the F.  Meaning after you robbed the aforementioned slat wing parts, you still have a complete hard wing kit - just need to source slotted stabilators to do an accurate EJ/early E (and who among us 1:72 builders doesn't have a stockpile of spare stabs?)

[ya-gabor]

In the instruction of the new Thunderbirds kit a nice touch is the authentic representation of Number 4 aircraft tail section. In flight (as visible in the video from which the print screen was taken) No. 4 was flying after and under No.1 aircraft and as a result the tail had a considerable amount of engine exhaust soot deposited, turning the fin almost into black! Interesting challenge for kit builders. : )  : )   : )

 

Nice work and research from the kit manufacturer!

 

Best regards

Gabor  

[Paul Boyer]

This was a carryover from the F-100 days. It didn't take long for the soot to build up and they eventually just left it on as a badge of courage for the Slot Pilot. Maintenance crews would clean the soot from the fuselage, but let it build up on the tail.

[MoFo]

On 4/3/2024 at 2:31 PM, Quixote74 said:

Happy to be corrected/learn something new, but... <snip>

 

That's what I get for going off the half-remembered instructions from a single build ~25(!!!) years ago.  🙂

[GeneK]

On 4/3/2024 at 3:05 PM, MoFo said:

• The Blue Angels F-4 comes with pilot figures and a weapons set for the dummy Sparrows carried.  

 

Judging by this illustration on Hobby Search:

 

 

 

the Sparrows are those on the white sprues from FineMolds kit FP44.

 

That set also includes a separate sprue of Phantom pylons but those may not be included (unfortunately).

 

So there will be a lot of weapons for the spares box as identified below:

 

 

The following is for accountants calculating the higher cost of the BA kit : 

 

Using prices listed on Hobby Search,  the F-4J kit costs 3,360 yen, and the Weapons Set costs 1,600 yen, so the 4,640 yen  for the BA kit  is reasonable (the lack of pylons being offset by the ONE pilot included  ).  As a comparison,  the F-4E Thunderbird kit, including TWO pilots (but no weapons), costs 3,680 yen.

 

As an aside, the prices on HLJ presently are ~$5 more for the Thunderbird, and ~$10 more for the Blue Angel. That could be substantial if modeling the Diamond formation.

 

Gene K

Who wishes Hobby Search had a Private Warehouse feature as good as HLJ!

 

 

Edited April 5 by GeneK

[ya-gabor]

Was there anywhere a good period walkaround of a Thunderbird Phantom?

The thing is that the ones today like at Pima are “replicas” (just a regular retired F-4 painted up as a Thundebirs) and not one of the originals. As far as I could tell from available Thunderbird infos, after the short service those airframes had (everything taken out got demo) put back in and they went for regular service. Looking at period videos of the real Thunderbird Phantoms it is visible that there were many changes on them specific for the demo role. And even then there were many differences between aircraft. But in most cases little is visible of them unfortunately.

This is why I had the question about a good period walkaround of any sort.   

 

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

Had a little look at Thunderbir Phantoms.

As far as I can see this is the only one remaining original Phantom which served with Thunderbirds. It has been in Hamilton Veterans Park New Jersey since 2010.

 

https://www.airhistory.net/photo/348724/66-0286/60286

 

Are there any known walk arounds of it????

 

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

I have to stand corrected. Sorry for the previous post! It had false information. As far as I can see there are several ex-Thunderbird aircraft preserved in US, while there are other “ordinary” F-4’s only painted up as such.

 

Also found the instructions for the new Thunderbird kit at Hobby Search. There is one scheme mistake in my opinion and there are several modifications which are features of display aircraft that one will have to do if building a Thunderbird airframe.

 

Would be very interesting to see some “walk around’s” of real ex-Thunderbird Phantoms.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Tomcat Trebor]

I have a book on the Thunderbirds and a reprint of an article in Replica in Scale. The book is `Diamonds in the Sky A pictorial history of the United States Air Force Thunderbirds' by C.A.Knotts and Pete Moore. The F-4E is interesting as there were camouflage Thunderbirds when the F-4s arrived, in SEA scheme with a scallop on the fin cap and their numbers on the intake in a white circle. Also as the Finemolds kit scheme is when they were in West Germany no wing tanks are provided with the same scallops as the nose. There was a belly tank as well but was it painted blue ? Also another interesting fact is that they changed the font style of the numbers from Gothic to Clarendon in 1971.

 

Regarding the changes to the F-4E from the book, 

`This included the removal of a number of radar and weapons computer units and aft control stick (Finemolds shown it incorrectly). Additions to the F-4E....The instrument panel and control stick were altered, and a number of navigation panels were moved to the forward cockpit.'

 

Regards

Robert

[ya-gabor]

8 hours ago, Tomcat Trebor said:

I have a book on the Thunderbirds and a reprint of an article in Replica in Scale. The book is `Diamonds in the Sky A pictorial history of the United States Air Force Thunderbirds' by C.A.Knotts and Pete Moore. The F-4E is interesting as there were camouflage Thunderbirds when the F-4s arrived, in SEA scheme with a scallop on the fin cap and their numbers on the intake in a white circle. Also as the Finemolds kit scheme is when they were in West Germany no wing tanks are provided with the same scallops as the nose. There was a belly tank as well but was it painted blue ? Also another interesting fact is that they changed the font style of the numbers from Gothic to Clarendon in 1971.

 

Regarding the changes to the F-4E from the book, 

`This included the removal of a number of radar and weapons computer units and aft control stick (Finemolds shown it incorrectly). Additions to the F-4E....The instrument panel and control stick were altered, and a number of navigation panels were moved to the forward cockpit.'

 

Regards

Robert

 

 

Hi Robert,

 

Thanks for the input and response!

Will have a look at the book you recommend, but I expect it is mainly about the F-16 (BOOOOORING!!!) and not so much centred on the Phantom. It is understandable with a 25th anniversary book.

 

From what I can see in the available period Thunderbird Phantom documentary videos is that the Vulcan was completely taken out just as the radar. Suitable ballast has replaced it and the Vulcan bay was used as a travel pod.

With no radar the instrument panel was changed considerably and of course there was no HUD, so no point in adding it as shown in the instruction sheet. Have not seen any image of the back office.

The FineMolds paint scheme has one obvious outline problem as well. 

 

But I am more interested in external structural modifications which are visible on the airframe. This is why I was asking about any walkaround (photos of external details as opposed to general views) of the still existing real ex-Thunderbirds airframes.

It is visible that the 66-0286 in its current state (at the Hamilton Veteran Park New Jersey) has many changes introduced after its service with Thunderbirds. But some of the original conversions are also still there. This would be far more interesting for a kit build!

 

Thanks again!

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Tomcat Trebor]

Gabor,the book is from 1978 so no F-16s.

 

Robert

[ya-gabor]

1 hour ago, Tomcat Trebor said:

Gabor,the book is from 1978 so no F-16s.

 

Robert

 

Hi Robert,

 

Thanks!

 

Did not do the math. Sorry!

So it is the early years, the Phantoms and the T-38’s then.

 

Is it just Diamond Formation, nice smoke trailing, general photos or are there any close up details of Phantom (as well) of airframe structures.

 

Had a look and in some cases on net the book is selling for 35 to 60 Euro plus postage. So if the information / photos within are just general, nice sunny airshow images then it has very little value in terms of detailing a Thunderbirds Phantom!

 

Thanks anyway!

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Tomcat Trebor]

Hi Gabor, just general shots of formations and some on the tarmac.

 

Robert

[ya-gabor]

7 minutes ago, Tomcat Trebor said:

Hi Gabor, just general shots of formations and some on the tarmac.

 

Robert

Hi Robert,

 

 

YEAH, as usual. Unfortunately!!!! : (  : (  : (

No point in getting it then.

 

Well lets hope by accident someone is located near one of those real ex-Thunderbird Phantoms and will take few snapshots!

For the just released THunderbird Phantom FineMolds kit to get to Europe will take about 6 months, so there is plenty of time. : )  : )

 

Thanks!

 

Best regards

Gabor

[boom175]

Does the Fine Molds Thunderbirds F-4E come with the Sparrow missile bodies?

[ya-gabor]

33 minutes ago, boom175 said:

Does the Fine Molds Thunderbirds F-4E come with the Sparrow missile bodies?

Hi Boom175,

 

No.  : (  : (  This is based on the sprue layour in Hobby Search, here:

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/11015368/70/12

 

But looking at contemporary videos, they would not be of much help. The dummy Sparrows on Thunderbirds were just a cylinder with completely rounded back ends. Each of them had really big drains on them. I suspect they played the same role as the Blue Angels Sparrows of containing fuel or die. The only difference is that Blue Angels had fins attached to them making look like a real Sparrow and contained die to be injected into dumped fuel to produce the red and blue colours from wing tip fuel vents. With the white in the middle coming from fuel released into left engine exhaust gas, giving the red, white and blue. 

 

At the same time I would suspect that most people would have somewhere in the spares box a couple of Sparrows.

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

[ya-gabor]

So, here is what I could find on real or claimed Thinderbirds Phantoms from the Joe Baugher’s USAF Aircraft Serial numbers list.

 

 

66-0284

Now on pedestal at Burke Lakefront,

Cleveland, Ohio painted as Thunderbird #1, although it was not a Thunderbird aircraft.

 

66-0286

Flew with Thunderbirds. 

In 2010 was pole-mounted in Veterans Park in Hamilton Township, New Jersey.

 

66-0289

Was 'Thunderbird 8' and was the narrator's airplane.  In 1970 it served as #7 as the Narrators aircraft. In 1971 it served as #3.  In 1972 it served as #5, solo.  In 1973 it served as #6.  In December 1973, went to 6512th TFS at Edwards AFB. Now on display at Castle Air Museum, California since Apr 1995, painted as Thunderbird 6, which it was from 1969-1974.

 

 

66-0290

Was Thunderbird #3.Crashed at Holloman AFB, NM Mar 17, 1973.  Pilot ejected safely.

 

 

66-0291

Flew with Thunderbirds. To AMARC as FP626 Mar 21, 1991. Scrapped Apr 14, 2011.     : (    : (    : (

 

66-0294

Flew with Thunderbirds. Converted to NF-4E. Was preserved in Santa Rita,

Arizona. Currently on display in front of American Legion Post 109, Corona de Tucson, Arizona as #4

 

66-0296

Crashed Dec 2, 1968 near Dothan, AL while on training mission.

It has been claimed that this was a former Thunderbirds plane, but it wasn't.

 

 

The ones which could be of interest and are REAL ex Thunderbirds are:

 

66-0286 At Veteran Park but as far as I know it is either SEA camo now or still the white/red Edward test colours

 

66-0289 At Castle Air Museum

 

66-0294 at American Legion Tucson Arizona

 

Let’s hope someone is nearby, or next door to it, or plans a visit, or knows someone who took photos, or . . .  : )  : )   : )   Never say never!

 

I would go but have no chance to do so. : (  : (

 

Best regards

Gabor

[Ben Brown]

Here’s a link to the T-Birds F-4E configuration supplemental manual. It shows the front and rear cockpit changes. The smoke was made by injecting oil into the hot engine exhaust. The oil was carried in the fake missile bodies. There is a plumbing diagram for the system in the manual. 
 

I once found some details of other mods online that I’ll post when I get back to my computer where I (hopefully!) have them saved. External mods included some reinforcements added to the wings at the ailerons and to the stabilators. I’ll be able to give you the dimensions and location of the smoke probe, too. There were also some tape antennas stuck inside the rear canopy; I think they were used with civilian airport coms and nav aids. I’ll post a pic, although it might be difficult to replicate in 1/72. It’s definitely a pain in 1/48!

 

Ben

Edited April 8 by Ben Brown

[ya-gabor]

1 hour ago, Ben Brown said:

Here’s a link to the T-Birds F-4E configuration supplemental manual. It shows the front and rear cockpit changes. The smoke was made by injecting oil into the hot engine exhaust. The oil was carried in the fake missile bodies. There is a plumbing diagram for the system in the manual. 
 

I once found some details of other mods online that I’ll post when I get back to my computer where I (hopefully!) have them saved. External mods included some reinforcements added to the wings at the ailerons and to the stabilators. I’ll be able to give you the dimensions and location of the smoke probe, too. There were also some tape antennas stuck inside the rear canopy; I think they were used with civilian airport coms and nav aids. I’ll post a pic, although it might be difficult to replicate in 1/72. It’s definitely a pain in 1/48!

 

Ben

 

 

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks!  Great help.

 

All I was able to do in the past few days was to have a look at some available videos on Thunderbirds and Blue Angels. Some great, some more just a propaganda. I find the Blue Angels film really interesting with lots of nice details. It looks like many similar changes were implemented by the manufacturer for both teams to help.

Took some print screen images of the details that I wanted.

Here is the antenna on the RIO canopy, it was on both the teams aircraft at one time. I think a decal on the inside of the surface could be a solution. To mask it out and paint it is not so easy, specially that we are talking here about a 72 nd scale FineMolds kit! I have written to the manufacturer about this. Since in the past they did listen to some ideas in previous kits, lets hope that for the Blue Angels kit they will add this antenna as a decal. Unfortunately for the Thunderbirds kit it is too late now.

 

I found that there are two strange shapes on the bottom surface of the Thunderbird aircraft. They are on service panels 78 and 80. Had a closer look and they are a kind of vent at an angle in a shape of a tube. Blue Angels don’t have them! Now this is why a photo shoot of any of still existing ex-Thunderbirds would be of interest! One thing for sure 66-0286 at Veteran Park has them! A good image would be interesting.

 

The classic way of making “smoke” with oil injected into hot exhaust is visible on many views in those videos. They are at an angle to vertical, but from side view perfectly at right angle to direction of flight. Obviously they were removed after Thunderbirds years. But once again those ex-Thunderbirds should at least have a patch on the heat shield where they were located originally!

 

The dummy Sparrows with drains on them look exactly the same (apart from fins) on Thunderbirds and Blue Angels.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

Hi Ben,

 

So reading the T.O. now I know that the two shapes on the bottom of the aircraft on service panels 78 and 80 are started exhaust ducts.  Few days back when making this combination of differen screen prints I only identified it as  a "strange box".  : )  : ) 

 

Best regards

Gabor

Edited April 8 by ya-gabor

[Ben Brown]

Those are some good pictures of the antennas inside the aft canopy! I'm just going to draw up something that looks close and print them on clear decal film when I build my Z-M F-4J as a BA jet.

 

I can't recall where I got the manual pics I'm looking at, so I hesitate to post them without being able to give proper credit. According to the notes, the smoke probe was 1" in diameter, extended 18.5" out from the surface, and was mounted at Station 615.50. The Blue Angels probe was mounted on the next panel aft. It goes on to detail the stab reinforcements that look identical to the mod the Air Force did to add the arrowhead-shaped stiffeners, but photos don't show the stiffeners.

 

I wonder if those two mystery bumps have something to do with the cartridge starters? They look like they're just inboard of the access panels where they plug in the air start hose.

 

It might be time to start up a separate thread for T-Birds and BA F-4 info show the info doesn't get buried and this thread can concentrate on the Fine Molds F-4 kits.

 

Ben

[ya-gabor]

Hi Ben,

 

Thanks for the input and that great T.O.! I would have never imagined few days ago that this can surface.

 

Yes, it could be an idea to start something separately just for the demo birds.

The only reason it all is here is because I started to look around based on the FineMolds new kit.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[GeneK]

Thanks to Mr. Thunderbird (Ben). and ya-gabor. 

 

On 4/8/2024 at 8:10 AM, ya-gabor said:

So, here is what I could find on real or claimed Thunderbirds Phantoms from the Joe Baugher’s USAF Aircraft Serial numbers list.

 

Did you find any mention of McDill AFB? I "seem" to recall that we received a couple of ex-TBs around 1975 with nose ballast. Further foggy recollection is that the F-4E could be flown without the gun or ballast installed if tank 7 were locked out. Anyone have more definite info?

 

Gene K

Edited April 9 by GeneK