F-4 Phantom Red Flags and Red Bags

[GeneK]

After decades (literally) of admiring outstanding F-4 models on sites like ARC, there are consistently some Red Flags that pop up - items that are misunderstood or inadvertently neglected ... or ignored. These items include flap/slat/slot confusion,  as well as configuration  misconfiguration  ... as trailing edge flaps lowering without corresponding leading edge lowering.

 

Of course the average modeller can't be expected to know all the idiosyncrasies of each aircraft they model, and in this regard, there are outstanding  "Phantomologists" who freely share their expertise on ARC ... folks like Ben Brown, Tommy Thomason, Scott Wilson, and a host of others. 

 

One area that is rarely modeled is the little red bag that should be atop the ejection seats. This subject came up in the recent thread that discussed the configuration for a parked F-4G:

 

 

That discussion applied to USAF Phantoms, and it logically appears to also apply to USN and foreign  Phantoms, for example :

 

  

 

Note that the Little Red Bag is sometimes in view even if the seat is fully or only partially pinned:

 

 

So, as opposed to Remove Before Flight flags, I suggest adding the Little Red Bag to any  static Phantom model.

 

Thoughts?

 

Gene K

P.S. That's Christina Olds (Robin's daughter) in the cockpit for a photo-op before her flight with the 53rd at the AF Academy. The article link is broken but here's another picture of her (standing on the seat) ... with the bag visible on the front seat.

Edited July 20, 2023 by GeneK

[RichB63]

Great information Gene…thanks for posting!

 

I see a lot of narrow yellow streamers strewn about the seats. Are they part of the network of safety pins? 

[GeneK]

45 minutes ago, RichB63 said:

... narrow yellow streamers strewn about the seats. Are they part of the network of safety pins? 

Yes - seven pins interconnected by the "streamers".

 

Gene K

Is the intense heat keeping you inside at your bench with the F-4B?

[tomthegrom]

So are you saying don't put RBF flags on the aircraft. Put the little red bag on top of the seat, canopies open with the aircraft ready to go? 

 

Thanks for all the magnificent information.

 

Cheers

Tom

[GeneK]

 

52 minutes ago, tomthegrom said:

So are you saying don't put RBF flags on the aircraft.

 

 

Not at all! RBF flags are a separate topic ... with a whole other set of Dos and Don'ts depending on situation (for example on alert, out of chocks, or in Quick Check) and configuration (as tanks, weapons, and pods). RBF flags have been well covered , but the Little Red Bag hasn't (in my experience, so that's why I addressed the topic. Best , but best to ask about RBF flags after you decide on your load and aircraft situation.

 

Quote

Put the little red bag on top of the seat, canopies open with the aircraft ready to go? 

 

Not sure what you're asking. The seat pin bag can be on the seat before or after the seat is occupied, with canopy open or closed, ready to go or awaiting the crew ... " it depends" .  Bottom line is that when the aircraft is on the flightline, the seat will be either fully pinned ... or all pins except Face Curtain pulled and in the bag ... unless the seated crewmember or crew chief has removed the last pin and stowed the bag. Whew.

 

 Sorry for the wishy washy reply,Tom, but oh what a tangled mess we could weave on these two red topics ... until you decide on your load and aircraft situation.

 

Gene K

Edited July 21, 2023 by GeneK

[tomthegrom]

Thanks Gene for your expert knowledge. I am wanting to have my F4g with the canopies open. 

 

I have two load out scenarios.

Option #1, one training HARM, one training Maverick, one luggage pod, centerline tank. Potentially an airshow load out. 

 

Option #2 one centerline tank, ecm pod, 2 x mavericks, training load out. Either live mavericks or captive rounds. 

 

My skills are not good enough to install 7 seat pins in model form so i would like to use the red bag. 

 

So from this, what would be an accurate way to pose my F4G? 

 

Thank you for the help. So much to learn about F4s.

[boom175]

Hehe one of the things I remember from tech school about the F-4 seat "7 pins, 2 devices" 

[Ben Brown]

Thanks for posting this, Gene! 
 

For those who want to make one of these, here’s a link to some closeups. Be sure you include all of the stencils on it! 😄
LINK

 

OP, as Gene said, there are a lot of variations for the RBF pins and locks. The ones you’ll definitely need are the gear down locks that clamp over the hydraulic actuators, aux air intake safety pins, and weapons pylon pins. I did a quick Google search for F-4 safety pins locations but didn’t come up with much beyond the gear down locks. Why has no aftermarket company ever released those?
 

Ben

[RichB63]

1 hour ago, Ben Brown said:

Why has no aftermarket company ever released those?

Hi Ben,

Kazan Model Dynamics has released a F-4B Phantom landing gear set that includes the locking collar option. Here’s a cropped image from the instructions sheet…

 

It’s worth mentioning that the collars are not sold separately, only as part of a larger, quite comprehensive set, which appears to be very nice, albeit priced as you’d expect for a high-end product.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by RichB63
More information added

[Craig Baldwin]

42 minutes ago, Ben Brown said:

OP, as Gene said, there are a lot of variations for the RBF pins and locks. The ones you’ll definitely need are the gear down locks that clamp over the hydraulic actuators, aux air intake safety pins, and weapons pylon pins.

 

Why has no aftermarket company ever released those?

 

Great topic @GeneK , and I'm with you @Ben Brown for these other items. Ground locks/pins should be one of the last items removed before flight.

 

Thanks @RichB63, posted this just as you posted.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Craig Baldwin

[BillS]

Here’s a couple of references to help with the obsessed (me). The pin bag is USN but the USAF is essentially the same except there is a clip on the yellow ribbon for safing the emergency O2 bottle. The image in the wso’s cockpit depicts where the bag ends up when everything is safed. The other image shows some pins in place, the rocket initiator in the center (added in early 80s), the guillotine (yellow cover), drougue gun (red decals). The personnel parachute container is at the left and the green line on top is the rip chord. You can also make out a greenish coiled box spring behind the chute. The drawings show pin locations before the rocket initiator was moved.

As a side note, there were no external airframe safety pins per se on the F-4 save one for the centerline ejector rack which was installed internally through the left aux air door. All other safety features were locking devices and safety struts. Pylons may or may not have been pinned depending if they were carted and or loaded.

[ya-gabor]

Thats a nice handbook there!!!!  : )  : )  : )

 

Thanks for posting the images! Very useful!

 

Best regards

Gabor

[RichB63]

1 hour ago, BillS said:

to help with the obsessed (me)

Don’t worry Bill, you’re in good company! Thanks for adding to the discussion 😊

 

Rich

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by RichB63

[BillS]

Rich

Your D better have every safety device or you’ll be banished from the ranks of those with an F-4 Phantom “Phetish”!

[RichB63]

26 minutes ago, BillS said:

Rich

Your D better have every safety device or you’ll be banished from the ranks of those with an F-4 Phantom “Phetish”!

Lol…At this point, how could I not? Look for finished pictures in the Display Case section of this forum sometime next decade (if I’m still above ground)!

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by RichB63

[Ben Brown]

@RichB63 Kazan makes some beautiful parts! I’m surprised nobody like Quickboost ever released a set of just the actuators with the down locks installed. Perhaps @JeffreyK will consider making some?

 

Ben

[GeneK]

 

On 7/21/2023 at 6:07 AM, boom175 said:

... one of the things I remember from tech school about the F-4 seat "7 pins, 2 devices" 

 

What are the "2 devices"?

 

Quote

Here’s a couple of references to help with the obsessed (me).

 

Thanks, @BillS

 

Gene K

Edited July 23, 2023 by GeneK

[BillS]

One device for sure is the canopy safety strut. The other is the lower ejection handle guard. Maintenance egress training required ensuring the canopy safety strut was installed then the pins; face curtain, seat mounted initiator, bulkhead mounted initiator, drogue gun, rocket initiator, emergency 02, guillotine handle and lower ejection handle guard up. Those 9 things were a must for a “safe” cockpit. After I saw the pic GeneK posted of Col Old’s daughter, it reminded me that after the crew chief set up the cockpit, he would remove all safety items but leave the seat mounted initiator and face curtain pins installed. He’d then lay the pin bag on the canopy longeron/sill. After he strapped the crew in, he pulled the remaining pins and handed the closed bag to pilot/wso who typically stowed it with helmet bag, etc.

[JeffreyK]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:54 PM, Ben Brown said:

@RichB63 Kazan makes some beautiful parts! I’m surprised nobody like Quickboost ever released a set of just the actuators with the down locks installed. Perhaps @JeffreyK will consider making some?

 

Ben

This has been on the long "planned" list for ages (i.e. years), never got round to doing them but not crossed off either. One thing that kept me back was the thought of possibly having to make separate sets for each manufacturer's kits and also not totally sure how to deal with the aux door locks in context of the very different designs between kits.

J

[11bee]

On 7/20/2023 at 3:51 PM, GeneK said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

What horrible decal work on the fuselage side.  Would it have killed the AF to use a bit of Micro-Sol??  Totally unrealistic.  

[boom175]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:53 AM, GeneK said:

 

 

What are the "2 devices"?

 

 

Thanks, @BillS

 

Gene K

What I can remember is the rotating guard that covered the ejection handle between your legs and I think the canopy strut was the other, I remember the phrase more than I remember the actual devices. As once I left tech school I never worked on a F-4 again.  

[skyhawk524]

The canopy strut is a big one! If the pneumatic system isn't the tightest, that canopy will come down like a ton of bricks once the air has bled off.

[GeneK]

11 hours ago, boom175 said:

What I can remember is the rotating guard that covered the ejection handle between your legs and I think the canopy strut was the other ... .

Thanks, that was mu guess.

 

Gene K

[GeneK]

13 hours ago, 11bee said:

What horrible decal work on the fuselage side.  

 

Yes, but pretty nice for a drone! I think the 53rd had 4 QFs painted up for show.

 

Gene K

[Kevin Carroll]

Gene is right, as always - but don't tell him.

 

I tried my hand at using the Tamiya seat in their 1/48 F-4B. I am a shameless, reflexive user of resin replacement seats but man, the Tamiya seats looked darn nice to this untrained eye. I had a Kelik 3D decal cockpit set for the Academy 1/48 F-4B and while the cockpit IP and consoles are, in my estimation,  sub-par, the belts and pull handles are pretty nice, so I figured I'd give them a try. I muffed the first seat but with Gene's patient coaching, this one came out a little better. I got one final scolding from Speedy for not using the lower pull handle guard, so here it is retroactively tacked on. No red bag.....yet. 😊