Jan Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 I am back with more pics from my IRIAF project... I did more weatherning -the old (desert) camo bird should look much more weathered than post-overhaul "3-6020" in brand new blue-grey camo. I have also been working on the canopy... More work to be done... some nuances on weathering on old (desert) camo bird....I still need to do some more drybrushing in the cockpit... and of course I will to make rear mirrors for the canopy... Ok, Enjoy: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jan Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 #2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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doctorpepper Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 great job! i'd feel tempted to do it as well, if i knew where to get those decals, and, if i didn't already have 4 more tomcats on my build list Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jan Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 #5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stephen Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Awesome! I can't wait for the Hi-Decals Stephen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wing_Nut Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Fantastic finish on both Tomcats!! Which brand models are they? Hasegawa? Academy? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D_IcarUS_ Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Great stuff! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doctorpepper Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Fantastic finish on both Tomcats!! Which brand models are they? Hasegawa? Academy? i think they're academy toms their noses don't look so bad here eh? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KRI76 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 WOW! Looking great! Did iranian Cats really have Phoenix missiles? /Kristian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volzj Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 WOW! Looking great!Did iranian Cats really have Phoenix missiles? /Kristian Absolutely Kristian. Much to the CIA and DOD's dismay. They scored kills with them against the Iraqis and even sold a few to the Soviets (surprise, surprise!). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jan Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Did iranian Cats really have Phoenix missiles? Not only they "have" them, they actually scored great number of A-A kills with AIM-54 ...there is more than one record of destroying two Iraqi airplanes flying in close formation with SINGLE Phoenix... ...and my 1/48 blue grey bird "3-6020" is one of the airframes that scored this double-kill (at that time it served in the desert camo, of course) Much to the CIA and DOD's dismay Iranians proved themselves extremely skilled in maintenance of U.S. made equipment despite the U.S. embargo... ...of which the very successful combat carreer of Tomcats in Iran-Iraq war is the best proof There are even sources that say Iranians strted to produce copyed Phoenixes in 1990s Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Valkyrie_04 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Great job! Any chance of you doing the Hawk SAM... I heard the Iranians modified them for use on their Tomcats... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skuki Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Jan, great job. How is your T-10 doing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sebastijan Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Great work on the Cats, Jan! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jan Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Thank for kind words everybody Any chance of you doing the Hawk SAM... I heard the Iranians modified them for use on their Tomcats... Actually, the "3-6073" (my desert camo bird) was THE airframe used in testing of Sky Hawk program (after it scored several A-A kills in the early 1980s) :P Originally, I intended to do "SAM" Hawk for it...but i was too lazy to further complicate the project :D But note that if you want to make Tomcar with sky-Hawk, you need to modyfy the pylon too! How is your T-10 doing? Some work has been done-lot of razor-saw work B) ... as soon as I finish the Tomcats, I will have time for T-10-1 again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 ...there is more than one record of destroying two Iraqi airplanes flying in close formation with SINGLE Phoenix... Jan, I would take those claims with a grain of salt. Assuming the AIM-54 hits its target (a rather big assumption), I have serious doubts about that claim. It has also been claimed that the F-14 has knocked down three aircraft with one missile and also IIRC also has another double kill. Let's think about that. How many times have you heard of SAM's, with warheads double or triple the size of the Phoenix's, knocking down multiple aircraft? None come to my mind. The typical adversary tactical formation has around 1/3 mile spacing between the lead and his wingman, and a mile between the lead and his #3 and #4. All these distances are well outside the blast radius of an AIM-54 and even outside the radius of an aircraft explosion, but somehow one missile brought down two or three aircraft? In order for one missile to do that, the Iraqi aircraft would have literally had to have been in some type of airshow close formation. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to be doing that over enemy territory, even somebody as bad as the Iraqis. The only place they might do that is deep in their own territory, and now you have to assume that an F-14 penetrated through the Iraqi IADS and got within relatively close range (AIM-54 launch range against a fighter is well inside the magical hundred miles and often not more than AIM-7 range) and the Iraqi's not only did nothing but obligingly stayed on course in their close formation. In addition, in wartime even in their own territory fighters are not going to be in close formation anyway. As soon as they're airborne they are in tactical formations, due to the worry over the MANPADS threat. That's why many country's air forces don't do formation takeoffs in wartime (along with concerns over blown tires and full weapons loads), and countries that do so get into a tactical formation as soon as the gear is in the well. Finally, if they got this kill BVR deep inside enemy territory, well outside of the poor Iranian radar coverage (I've flown over Iran quite a few times), how did they know they killed two or three at once? They were certainly not going to break them out on their aircraft's radar; the F-14A radar is mediocre over land. Did the Iraqi AF commander call up the Tehran IOC wth a daily tally and give them a "well done chaps, here's your score for today, keep up the good work?" On top of it all, this has supposedly happened not once but several times. Maybe the Iraqi's were flying around with cases of nitroglycerin in their jets? The bottom line to me, is these claims are being made with no documentation and no common sense to back them up. Regards, Murph P.S. Very nice build on the kit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volzj Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 (I've flown over Iran quite a few times)Regards, Murph I am shocked and appalled sir, that you have violated the airspace of a peaceful sovereign nation such as Iran. :lol: :( Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 (I've flown over Iran quite a few times) Regards, Murph I am shocked and appalled sir, that you have violated the airspace of a peaceful sovereign nation such as Iran. :lol: :( Joe, Actually it was as an F.O. on a 747. I was shocked considering how long the Iran-Iraq War had lasted how bad their radar coverage was. He had to deconfict ourselves with other flights through timing, airspeed, and position reporting. Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jan Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Murph... what you say does definitely make sense... but I am just a messenger here and I am quite sure the person I got this info from knows what he is talking about (and it is not just THE person who comes first on ones mind :( )... I will try to check this with my sources... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dmanton300 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to be doing that over enemy territory, even somebody as bad as the Iraqis. The Argentinians regularly flew "welded wing" formations in Skyhawks and Daggers during the Falklands campaign. . it was commented upon more than once by incredulous SHAR pilots. I take it in the intervening 22 years they have learnt the value of a combat spread! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doctorpepper Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 ...there is more than one record of destroying two Iraqi airplanes flying in close formation with SINGLE Phoenix... Jan, I would take those claims with a grain of salt. Assuming the AIM-54 hits its target (a rather big assumption), I have serious doubts about that claim. It has also been claimed that the F-14 has knocked down three aircraft with one missile and also IIRC also has another double kill. Let's think about that. How many times have you heard of SAM's, with warheads double or triple the size of the Phoenix's, knocking down multiple aircraft? None come to my mind. The typical adversary tactical formation has around 1/3 mile spacing between the lead and his wingman, and a mile between the lead and his #3 and #4. All these distances are well outside the blast radius of an AIM-54 and even outside the radius of an aircraft explosion, but somehow one missile brought down two or three aircraft? In order for one missile to do that, the Iraqi aircraft would have literally had to have been in some type of airshow close formation. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to be doing that over enemy territory, even somebody as bad as the Iraqis. The only place they might do that is deep in their own territory, and now you have to assume that an F-14 penetrated through the Iraqi IADS and got within relatively close range (AIM-54 launch range against a fighter is well inside the magical hundred miles and often not more than AIM-7 range) and the Iraqi's not only did nothing but obligingly stayed on course in their close formation. In addition, in wartime even in their own territory fighters are not going to be in close formation anyway. As soon as they're airborne they are in tactical formations, due to the worry over the MANPADS threat. That's why many country's air forces don't do formation takeoffs in wartime (along with concerns over blown tires and full weapons loads), and countries that do so get into a tactical formation as soon as the gear is in the well. Finally, if they got this kill BVR deep inside enemy territory, well outside of the poor Iranian radar coverage (I've flown over Iran quite a few times), how did they know they killed two or three at once? They were certainly not going to break them out on their aircraft's radar; the F-14A radar is mediocre over land. Did the Iraqi AF commander call up the Tehran IOC wth a daily tally and give them a "well done chaps, here's your score for today, keep up the good work?" On top of it all, this has supposedly happened not once but several times. Maybe the Iraqi's were flying around with cases of nitroglycerin in their jets? The bottom line to me, is these claims are being made with no documentation and no common sense to back them up. Regards, Murph P.S. Very nice build on the kit. maybe the double frag ensued when the wingmen flew over to check why was he shooting chaff and flares off like nobody's business, and then they all flew into the burning wreckage of the first plane? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jan Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 To Murph re multiple kills by a single Iranian AIM-54. I asked Tom Cooper (the author of "Iranian F-14 units in combat") what he thinks about what you wrote. Here is his reaction: There is well documented downing of two Serbian J-21 Jastrebs by a single Igla (i.e. SA-14) MANPAD over Zadar, in Croatia, in September 1991, which was captured on a video, and subsequently confirmed down to the last screw. Should detailled descriptions - including stills from a video - of that kill be needed, I have them at hand: sadly, only pilot narratives and US documents confirming them are available in the Iranian case. IMHO, it's always a question of how tight are the targeted aircraft flying to each other: a 190kg warhead of SA-2 is certainly not going to be sufficient to down two F-14s flying 1.500 or more meters from each other. A 5kg warhead of an Igla, however, is certainly going to be extremely lethal for two J-21s playing Blue Angels over a heavily defended target area. So, now, think about what can a proximity-fuzing 60kg warhead of AIM-54 do to a division of MiG-23BNs (lacking RWRs), and doing the same... Whatever, both of the double-kills are confirmed by USN and USAF documents: detailled research about the tripple (perhaps even a quarduple) kill is currently going on. And, re. how could Iranians find a confirmation for them: they actually never cared to do so. The pilots that scored them were considered "disloyal" and weren't credited nor advanced in rank (as this was done in the case of "loyal" pilots): the Iranian authorities discredited the IRIAF - especially F-14-units - of something like 50-60% of their kills any way. On the other side, the crew of the F-14s in question knew what it saw on their radar: four MiG-23s approaching, single AIM-54 fired against them, two MiG-23s dropping from the radar when the AWG-9 calculated "time to impact" showed 0 - and the remaining two MiG-23s turning and running away, just for example. The AWG-9 is not the best radar over the land, but it's not the worst either. Sure is, the Iraqis learned their lessons and no such kills occurred after July 1982, by when the IrAF finally started developing into something slightly more capable than making fly-pasts on parades for Saddam... _________________ Tom Cooper Editor, ACIG.org Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 The Argentinians regularly flew "welded wing" formations in Skyhawks and Daggers during the Falklands campaign. . it was commented upon more than once by incredulous SHAR pilots. I take it in the intervening 22 years they have learnt the value of a combat spread! Drewe, Typical "welded wing" formations are still in the 200 to 500 meter range, outside the blast radii of conventional air to air warheads. It does provide rather expensive rear warning coverage (i.e. the wingman) for the flight leader though. Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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