Mak Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Hi I often see people comment about how inaccurate the included kits decals are and sometimes complain about third party decals too. So many companies make decals these days but who makes the most accurate ones and who are reputed to be the worst? Who makes the best decals in terms of accuracy of colors, logos, codes, and stencils…etc.. ? MAK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gb_madcat_sl Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 IMHO Afterburner Decals, Fightertown Decals and Twobobs make the best decals out there. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Julien (UK) Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Not quite as simple as the best decals, depends on the subject matter. The companies mark mentioned are good for modern US jets. Linden Hill make some excellent Russian and former USSR state's decals. Aztec are producing some stunning sheets for Central/South american subjects. Julien Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PlasticWeapons Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Even the best decal makers make small errors on their sheets. :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I can't think of a single decal nameplate that has just one artist. The quality of the artwork is 100% dependent on the talent, knowledge, motivation, and skill of the artist. Everybody is different, and we all have strengths and weaknesses. And no one is ever 100% on their game on every project they do. There are no simple answers to your questions. Every decal line that has ever existed has had jewels and dogs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mak Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 What do you guys think of Xtradecal? I want to order few of their recent Hawk and Lightning 1/32 scale decals. I am not really sure but I think I've read somewhere that they were a bit off with few of their Hawk decals. MAK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mumbles Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Hi I often see people comment about how inaccurate the included kits decals are and sometimes complain about third party decals too. So many companies make decals these days but who makes the most accurate ones and who are reputed to be the worst? Who makes the best decals in terms of accuracy of colors, logos, codes, and stencils…etc.. ? MAK Quite apart the skill of the producers, any decal sheet will only be as accurate as the research that went into it. You can have the best artists and printers in the world, and still produce an inaccurate sheet because the source material was wrong or not understood. I've seen sheets from generally very good producers that have simple but big mistakes indicating a lack of in-depth subject research. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RiderFan Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) I can't think of a single decal nameplate that has just one artist. The quality of the artwork is 100% dependent on the talent, knowledge, motivation, and skill of the artist. Everybody is different, and we all have strengths and weaknesses. And no one is ever 100% on their game on every project they do. There are no simple answers to your questions. Every decal line that has ever existed has had jewels and dogs. While I outsource my printing, I do 100% of my own art. I spend months researching my sheets (which is why I'm so long between new product releases). I'd have to say that decal sheets are as accurate or not as the people producing them want them to be. Some folks stop at 'good enough'. Edited March 20, 2012 by RiderFan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChernayaAkula Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 What do you guys think of Xtradecal? <...> Well, their 1/72 version of the "USAFE Phantoms in the UK" sheet didn't have the EURO 1 RF-4C out of Alconbury it claims to have. It is in the instructions, but there are no decals for it to be found on the sheet. Guess they combined the instructions for their two 1/48 sheets, but didn't manage to get all the decals onto the sheet. And the numbers for the stencils are also all over the place. Someone was seriously asleep at the wheel doing that sheet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Sorry I missed you. Honestly, this is the first time I've ever heard of your nameplate... J While I outsource my printing, I do 100% of my own art. I spend months researching my sheets (which is why I'm so long between new product releases). I'd have to say that decal sheets are as accurate or not as the people producing them want them to be. Some folks stop at 'good enough'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 There is no sincle AAA category producer, they all have good days and bad days. The subject in question is often not available for close scrutiny, but the producer likes (or simply loves, or there is a popular demand for) the subject and wants to make it no matter what. Even if he is not 100% sure of the subject. The end result is . . . Also production of decals is a specilized business, you can have a kit producer who can add all the fine bits and pieces in plastic (or photoetch, or resin) to the kit but has little knowledge of decal production, research capacity, historic authenticity, time available . . . In most cases production of decals is a commercial business where you have to make a quick turnaround and produce a lot of decals as fast as possible to make it all work. Can you keep up the 100% in all aspects of production: quality, details, correct markings, good instruction sheet . . . Remember Modeldecals from the UK. They had excellent research by Richard Ward and tons of information of the instruction sheet. The decals were really comprehensive. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Well, their 1/72 version of the "USAFE Phantoms in the UK" sheet didn't have the EURO 1 RF-4C out of Alconbury it claims to have. Mine has the markings for that one on an addendum sheet, along with a few other corrections. Perhaps you could request the adddendum sheet from Xtradecal / Hannants. HTH, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Starfighter Decals Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I can't think of a single decal nameplate that has just one artist. The quality of the artwork is 100% dependent on the talent, knowledge, motivation, and skill of the artist. Everybody is different, and we all have strengths and weaknesses. And no one is ever 100% on their game on every project they do. There are no simple answers to your questions. Every decal line that has ever existed has had jewels and dogs. Well, I'll add that Starfighter Decals as of this date has had only one artist, me. Be careful when making such statements in the future. Just because you may have not known of such a company, dosen't mean one dosen't exsist. I've been around since '05 and I know you have heard of me, unless you have chosen to be blind. You and I vended at the same event(s) and across from each other. Virginia isn't that big and Roanoke and Lynchburg are relitivly small cities. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mark S. Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Gents: Wolfpak Decals for those of you who don't know is largely drawn by myself (over 99%)with the exception of a very few subjects to date. Those that have been done by others have been reviewed by myself and senior modelers that check the work before it is printed. Won't say there have been no mistakes but we try to keep those to a minimum. The key to accurate decals in addition to good drawing skills and checking is good reference material. Mark S. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Well, I have to add that when we have to talk about the Russian/Soviet AF, than you just can't overlook the Begemot decals. Very thoroughly researched and very accurate for Russian/Soviet AF subjects. Considering the versatility of the Begemot decal sheets, it is reasonable that mistakes are present, but mainly when we talking about non-Russian/Soviet subject. So hardly that any other decal manufacturer have anything even close to Begemot decals... in both sense - regarding the accuracy of dimensions and shape as well as the accuracy of colors! I have almost all their decal sheets and I have to say that with every new decal sheet, they are raising the quality level and their own standards. Even here on forum, very often the most reliable information about Russian/Soviet subjects coming from Kotey! Edited March 20, 2012 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Well, I have to add that when we have to talk about the Russian/Soviet AF, than you just can't overlook the Begemot decals. Very thoroughly researched and very accurate for Russian/Soviet AF subjects. Considering the versatility of the Begemot decal sheets, it is reasonable that mistakes are present, but mainly when we talking about non-Russian/Soviet subject. So hardly that any other decal manufacturer have anything even close to Begemot decals... in both sense - regarding the accuracy of dimensions and shape as well as the accuracy of colors! I have almost all their decal sheets and I have to say that with every new decal sheet, they are raising the quality level and their own standards. Even here on forum, very often the most reliable information about Russian/Soviet subjects coming from Kotey! While it is true what you have been saying, the Begemot decals are exceptional, well printed and well produced items. But there is a small BUT at the end of my sentence: Unfortunately up untill recently Begemot has used a wrong clear varnish on the decals which means that all and I mean ALL the decals they have produced in the past are completely yellow!!! It's not much use of having a beautiful full stenciling for a MiG-25 interceprtor where each and every stencil has a yellow surrounding to it on a light grey aircraft surface. There is nothing one can do but to change all the varnish on a decal sheet!!! Now that's not a really nice prospect with hundreds of stencils. I know that now Kotey at Begemot have changed to a new varnish which is clear, but I dont really know what I will be doing with dozens of not so cheap previous decals. Best regards Gabor Edited March 20, 2012 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 While it is true what you have been saying, the Begemot decals are exceptional, well printed and well produced items. But there is a small BUT at the end of my sentence: Unfortunately up untill recently Begemot has used a wrong clear varnish on the decals which means that all and I mean ALL the decals they have produced in the past are completely yellow!!! It's not much use of having a beautiful full stenciling for a MiG-25 interceprtor where each and every stencil has a yellow surrounding to it on a light grey aircraft surface. There is nothing one can do but to change all the varnish on a decal sheet!!! Now that's not a really nice prospect with hundreds of stencils. I know that now Kotey at Begemot have changed to a new varnish which is clear, but I dont really know what I will be doing with dozens of not so cheap previous decals. Best regards Gabor Yes, this is true! But small exposure to the sunlight will solve the yellowness :D. After applying and sealing, the decals are not prone to yellowing. And I have to add something... comparing to the other manufacturers, Begemot decals are not expensive at all. At least not if you compare the quantity and quality of decals that you get when you buy decal set from Begemot. I am from Serbia and we don't have high standard of living, quite opposite, but still most of the modelers consider Begemot decals, if not as cheap, but as inexpensive! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Yes, this is true! But small exposure to the sunlight will solve the yellowness :D. After applying and sealing, the decals are not prone to yellowing. And I have to add something... comparing to the other manufacturers, Begemot decals are not expensive at all. At least not if you compare the quantity and quality of decals that you get when you buy decal set from Begemot. I am from Serbia and we don't have high standard of living, quite opposite, but still most of the modelers consider Begemot decals, if not as cheap, but as inexpensive! Yes, the sunlight trick has been around for decades not only with Begemot decals. It is good for a short time, but the yellow colour (unfortunately) will come back. :( :( If the solution was so simple the manufacturer would not work on perfecting decal varnishing, just simply add a note that put it in sunlight and you are OK. For Begemot just as with many other manufacturers, including Hungarians this was a technological problem in early years of production. Now fortunately for most it has been eradicated but still there are a lot of old and by now completely usless decals remaining. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Generally yellowing occurs in decal clear carrier films that have organic (vegetable based) constituents. A fully synthetic clear (as used by Cartograf, among others) is not generally prone to yellowing. It's more complicated than that, but that's the simple answer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Two Mikes Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I can't think of a single decal nameplate that has just one artist. The quality of the artwork is 100% dependent on the talent, knowledge, motivation, and skill of the artist. Everybody is different, and we all have strengths and weaknesses. And no one is ever 100% on their game on every project they do. There are no simple answers to your questions. Every decal line that has ever existed has had jewels and dogs. Two Bobs has one person doing the art. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Yes, the sunlight trick has been around for decades not only with Begemot decals. It is good for a short time, but the yellow colour (unfortunately) will come back. :( :( If the solution was so simple the manufacturer would not work on perfecting decal varnishing, just simply add a note that put it in sunlight and you are OK. For Begemot just as with many other manufacturers, including Hungarians this was a technological problem in early years of production. Now fortunately for most it has been eradicated but still there are a lot of old and by now completely usless decals remaining. Best regards Gabor I have to disagree with you in some instance. It is the very old problem and it was solved many times successfully. After removing the decals yellowing by exposing these to sunlight and after detaching decals from the paper in the water and slightly washing its background to remove glue, applying the decals by using decal setting solution, then sealing the decals with clear coat will prevent the re-yellowing. I have some old Airfix decals de-yellowed, applied on model and sealed with clear coating 20+ years before and still didn't show any trace of yellowing. As Jennings said, the explanation is not quite simple, but yellowing is caused generally when the acid in the backing paper chemically reacting with the mineral decal adhesive. In case of some very old and poor quality adhesives, like the ones in old Heller decals, even the strongest sunlight will not help! :D But in case of Begemot decals, this is not something that you can't resolve successfully. For decal manufacturers this is the problem, but mainly because this kind of issue will affect their sale results in a way that unsatisfying customers will spread the bad words about them and lot of modelers do not want to bother by de-yellowing the decals. But it does not mean that this is the problem which can not be solved by modeler when time come for using the decals! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Two Bobs has one person doing the art. It could be the true, but drawing is the easiest thing. I assure you that with enough information, I could draw the decals very, very quick. I doing much, much more complicated things than decals for many years. But when it come to decals, researching of the subject and collecting the reliable information is much harder things. In case that you have to replicate decals or inscription from which is on non-flat surface and photo is taken with wide lens under the angle, then you will have to know geometry and mathematics if you want to achieve satisfactory results and to have decals with minimal deviation from the original. So it could be that one man is drawing decals for Bob, but is the same person is one who doing the research job, collects the information and material and then draw the decals by extrapolating the available information is too much for one person. If you under "doing the art", you have in mind the man who only draw the decals by using the computer program, that is easily possible and I don't see the problem with that! Edited March 20, 2012 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RiderFan Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 So it could be that one man is drawing decals for Bob, but is the same person is one who doing the research job, collects the information and material and then draw the decals by extrapolating the available information is too much for one person. No. It isn't. I do all my own research (albeit with a people submitting photos for me to work with) and I do the artwork myself. Heck I even travel to locations to get access to research material. So far I've had zero complaints from people finding error's on my sheets. I've built complete 3D sports video games by myself(including 2D and 3d Art, animation, and coding) so to say someone can't do something like a decal sheet by themselves is not even remotely close to being accurate. One person can do anything they put their mind to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bungynik Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) No. It isn't. I do all my own research (albeit with a people submitting photos for me to work with) and I do the artwork myself. Heck I even travel to locations to get access to research material. So far I've had zero complaints from people finding error's on my sheets. I've built complete 3D sports video games by myself(including 2D and 3d Art, animation, and coding) so to say someone can't do something like a decal sheet by themselves is not even remotely close to being accurate. One person can do anything they put their mind to. OK! It is true if you are in position to have access to all information needed. But let say that you want to do decals for an old aircraft from '60 which does not exists any more. You have to collect the available photos that will allows you to extract needed information. So depending on the time period of the photo, there could be difference in markings or painting the aircraft. Then you have to know where to search and how to find the persons or institution which were preserved the photos or information. It is the hard and painful work and there is no guarantee that you will be able to collect all the data needed. On the other hand, if the subject is still available than it's easy work. Measuring tape, camera and granted access to subject will make this job very easy. But then ask Jenning how easy was research on MiG-21 subject for AB decal sheet? Ask him how easy was to get the even mediocre quality photos? And do you expect in this case to have decal set without errors? What would you do if somebody ask from you to do a decal sheet of Cuban MiG-21... an accurate sheet? Would you travel to Cuba to measure the stencils and markings, compare the color with FS paint samples, or you will just ask for photos and somebody will send you such a good photos that you will have all the needed information? Or lets say that you have to do an decal sheet ow downed F-4 from Vietnam war era. Easy to research and find information? Try to do research of WWII aviation and then try to guess colors based on B&W photos! No, man... one man can't do that. You are talking about existing and subject available to access or subjects you can get a tons of photos! This is not research then. it is just artisan work. How hard is to draw the photos with bunch of photos like this one: Just to clear my attitude! I do not trying to diminish your hard work at all and this is not my intention at all! I admiring to your energy and enthusiasm. But I just trying to point out that that can not be all reduced to drawing! Yes in case that you have unlimited access to subject and data, but the hardest work is research and collecting the usable information. The drawing is just the skill, regardless if it is hand work or with aid of computer! P.S. Just to notice that I've got permission to publish the photo above here for the purpose of this discussion only! Edited March 20, 2012 by bungynik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RiderFan Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) OK! It is true if you are in position to have access to all information needed. But let say that you want to do decals for an old aircraft from '60 which does not exists any more. You have to collect the available photos that will allows you to extract needed information. So depending on the time period of the photo, there could be difference in markings or painting the aircraft. Then you have to know where to search and how to find the persons or institution which were preserved the photos or information. It is the hard and painful work and there is no guarantee that you will be able to collect all the data needed. On the other hand, if the subject is still available than it's easy work. Measuring tape, camera and granted access to subject will make this job very easy. But then ask Jenning how easy was research on MiG-21 subject for AB decal sheet? Ask him how easy was to get the even mediocre quality photos? And do you expect in this case to have decal set without errors? What would you do if somebody ask from you to do a decal sheet of Cuban MiG-21... an accurate sheet? Would you travel to Cuba to measure the stencils and markings, compare the color with FS paint samples, or you will just ask for photos and somebody will send you such a good photos that you will have all the needed information? Or lets say that you have to do an decal sheet ow downed F-4 from Vietnam war era. Easy to research and find information? Try to do research of WWII aviation and then try to guess colors based on B&W photos! No, man... one man can't do that. You are talking about existing and subject available to access or subjects you can get a tons of photos! This is not research then. it is just artisan work. No. I am Not. Ignoring I would not travel to cuba as I have no interest in any aircraft flown there. Nore do I care all that much for Mig21's so would never bother to spend 5 minutes researching them. That said, I have made efforts to travel great distances to obtain photos of aircraft that haven't flown in 40+ years. I really think you need to stop making general statements like this becuase you really do not have any idea how I go about doing research. And yes, collecting photos is actually called research, not "artisan work". You really have no idea what "one man" can do. Just because YOU can't do it, doesn't mean others can't. Edited March 20, 2012 by RiderFan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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