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Eduard 1/48 BF109-G6


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Except that the kit will not be "ferrari" priced, more like "Ford" pricing - look at the Weekend boxings, cheaper than the Airfix kit.

Doesn't matter how it is priced. To me, those issues make it a non-starter. I acknowledge that they could be addressed and will hold off on a final decision until the actual reviews are in. That being said, it looks highly unlikely that these issues will disappear from the final product.

Sad.....

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In my opinion, its better wait Eduard double check those comments from modellers and perform such corrections prior a real plastic is available in the market. If they decide to "lets fix for later....", it will become years to have new tooling. In my opinion Eduard will "shoot its own foot" if they release it now. Well lets see their decision. Hope they hear those claims, check and make available the best 109G in the market, even if we have to wait couple months to fix the tooling, since its not easy task even doing it in-house. If they are designing lots of detailed aftermarket add-ons thru Brassin (http://www.detailscaleview.com/2014/04/eduard-148-bf-109-g-6-general-info_12.html), certainly they are not focusing to sell it thru "baby r us" stores....

Edited by Fernando
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Hah. Sadly, what you see in the photos in this thread is what you get.

I don't doubt that that this kit will sell. But as it is, I'll spend my money elsewhere.

Vedran

Who says? This isn't the final production model.

To quote Gabor's post earlier in this thread,

"To clear the issues I have asked Mr. Sulc as the most competent person in this question. As he said this is only the first prototype and work is on for the final production version which will have close to two dozen alterations / corrections to the first molds. The issues (including the bulges on the wings . . .) raised here and on other forums will be addressed and the kit should be out as scheduled in the beginning of May."

Lets not write a kit off until it's on the shelf. I'll decide to buy it or not when we see the finished article, though if the wheel bugles and a few other bits are sorted out then I will probably buy at least one.

Edited by Tbolt
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Who says? This isn't the final production model.

To quote Gabor's post earlier in this thread,

"To clear the issues I have asked Mr. Sulc as the most competent person in this question. As he said this is only the first prototype and work is on for the final production version which will have close to two dozen alterations / corrections to the first molds. The issues (including the bulges on the wings . . .) raised here and on other forums will be addressed and the kit should be out as scheduled in the beginning of May."

Lets not write a kit off until it's on the shelf. I'll decide to buy it or not when we see the finished article, though if the wheel bugles and a few other bits are sorted out then I will probably buy at least one.

I hope so, Tbolt....im very anxious to buy this kit with necessary fixes...lots of aftermarket add ons...really and highly expected.

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Tbolt,

what I saw in person last weekend was an assembled plastic kit and not a 3D printing. That means that the money has been spent and metal molds cut.

Fixing would require completely new molds (ok, this process is now much quicker then it was a couple of years ago), but with release date set for May and continued uniterrupted marketing campaign (12 days to go), I wouldn't bet on it.

In my country we have a saying "The dogs are barking but the carravans go on".

Woof-woof.

Vedran

Edited by dragonlance
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Tbolt,

what I saw in person last weekend was an assembled plastic kit and not a 3D printing. That means that the money has been spent and metal molds cut.

Fixing would require completely new molds (ok, this process is now much quicker then it was a couple of years ago), but with release date set for May and continued uniterrupted marketing campaign (12 days to go), I wouldn't bet on it.

In my country we have a saying "The dogs are barking but the carravans go on".

Woof-woof.

Vedran

Yes I realise that, but did Eduard say that was the final product that would be in the box? Just because molds have been made it does not mean corrections cannot be made, if Eduard said they are fixing some of the issues that are in that first mold, then why do you not believe them? They said close to two dozen alterations / corrections, I doubt it will be everything that is mentioned here, but if they said the wing (wheel) bugles will be fixed then I believe them (well as much as I believe anything I read on the internet ;)/> ). If they don't fix anything from this test shot, then I will not buy the kit.

The test shot might have been available for a couples of weeks but it doesn't mean they have just started to make corrections to the mold they could have been doing that weeks ago.

Edited by Tbolt
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Yes I realise that, but did Eduard say that was the final product that would be in the box? Just because molds have been made it does not mean corrections cannot be made, if Eduard said they are fixing some of the issues that are in that first mold, then why do you not believe them? They said close to two dozen alterations / corrections, I doubt it will be everything that is mentioned here, but if they said the wing (wheel) bugles will be fixed then I believe them (well as much as I believe anything I read on the internet ;)/>/> ). If they don't fix anything from this test shot, then I will not buy the kit.

The test shot might have been available for a couples of weeks but it doesn't mean they have just started to make corrections to the mold they could have been doing that weeks ago.

I'm no expert but I thought others have indicated that this late in the game, significant changes (ie - to the overall outline of the kit) typically cannot be made.

Hopefully I'm wrong and Eduard addresses all of the issues and not just minor (and easily correctable) stuff like a misplaced panel line, etc.

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I have asked Mr. Sulc about the wing bulges and it was indicated that they were one of the changes. I would consider them to be fairly major changes!

As to making major changes to metal press forms I can only refer to previous experiences like the original MiG-29 from GWH, the cockpit part was raised from the first pressing (the prototype) by a considerable margin, the complete under side was changed after the first released kit, or the wing tips completely redesigned and incorporated into the 9-13 fuselage moulds.

To change any panel lines or smaller details is even far easier. Even with Eduard one can look at the MiG-15 kit. Lets not talk about the original 1.0 version made two years ago, but lets see the release of the 2.0 version last September at E Day which was a complete redesign of the item. Since then a 2.1 version was released where the problems with the 2.0 were corrected on the moulds. So it is possible to make changes. We have also seen last year at Zvezda together with Ken that a lot of corrections can be made to the press forms in many ways.

The time scale of that prototype aircraft shown to us last weekend at Moson is far in the past so it is not only now that work is starting to make the corrections.

Lets see what the final kit will look like!

Best regards

Gabor

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I'm no expert but I thought others have indicated that this late in the game, significant changes (ie - to the overall outline of the kit) typically cannot be made.

Hopefully I'm wrong and Eduard addresses all of the issues and not just minor (and easily correctable) stuff like a misplaced panel line, etc.

I don't personally don't expect them to fix any major shape issues, but is there any? We are only guessing from some pictures that there are shape errors. I just expect some of the details to be fixed, bugles, missing hinge lines etc.

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Mostly because as I already wrote, the launch campaign moves on uninterrupted. No change of kit launch date.

Vedran

Why would they stall the launch campaign? They don't have to have the molds finalized before they start the campaign. I don't know anything about the work that would have to be done on the masters/molds, but I don't see why they can't make changes within the five weeks (at a guess) since they did the test shot they showed us.

Anyway if they did have to delay the launch of the kit to make improvements I'm sure no one would mine if we got a better product from it.

Edited by Tbolt
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If Eduard decides to go forward with those changes prior release, mainly the cowling after spinner curve as pointed out in page 6 of this topic, i hope they double check the engine measurements as well. Changes in fuselage foward section may impact the interface with the engine, which may cause fit issues. It seems trivial, but if engine has to changed, then, more mould changes, which will slip the schedule.. :pray:/>/> :pray:/

Edited by Fernando
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If Eduard decides to go forward with those changes prior release, mainly the cowling after spinner curve as pointed out in page 6 of this topic, i hope they double check the engine measurements as well. Changes in fuselage foward section may impact the interface with the engine, which may cause fit issues. It seems trivial, but if engine has to changed, then, more mould changes, which will slip the schedule.. :pray:/>/>/> :pray:/>/

What engine? I haven't seen any evidence of an engine in the kit, like the Emil, so it would only be an adjustment of the Brassin engine.

Note the Gustav has got a 'one piece' exhaust on a plain plate, not like the separate pipes you get to attach to the engine in the Emil kit.

-14A_12.png

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I think we need to wait and see the actual plastic for most of these points. You do realise that if you examine 99% of the kits out there they have just as many inaccuracies?

I no longer have any interest in the actual plastic. What we have seen so far from Eduard's Me-109G-6 is way, way too mediocre for that.

The past in winged things is indeed far from exemplary, and in this I agree with you... I don't know why this is so bad for aircrafts in particular. But look at Xu-Ton's incoming Il-4, and take my word it will be nearly perfect in every way... Surely now Xu-Ton doesn't have more history and sophistication than Eduard? Is the Il-4 an easier aircraft to research than the Me-109? No, but they used help from fans... Eduard could have at least used the Zvezda kit for checking the basic outlines...

I generally agree with you, but concerning aircraft kits only, and this is why I have mostly moved on to 1/350 things with propellers pushing water... And even then mostly the newer Japanese kits, and staying away from Academy/Trumpeter.

Robertson

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Its Brassin engine TBolt...missed to mention above

Well I don't see that effecting the release of the kit, maybe the engine (I don't see them fixing the nose, if indeed it is incorrect). Or it will just mean a bit of grinding on the kit, which will probably be needed anyway.

Edited by Tbolt
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I no longer have any interest in the actual plastic. What we have seen so far from Eduard's Me-109G-6 is way, way too mediocre for that.

The past in winged things is indeed far from exemplary, and in this I agree with you... I don't know why this is so bad for aircrafts in particular. But look at Xu-Ton's incoming Il-4, and take my word it will be nearly perfect in every way... Surely now Xu-Ton doesn't have more history and sophistication than Eduard? Is the Il-4 an easier aircraft to research than the Me-109? No, but they used help from fans... Eduard could have at least used the Zvezda kit for checking the basic outlines...

I generally agree with you, but concerning aircraft kits only, and this is why I have mostly moved on to 1/350 things with propellers pushing water... And even then mostly the newer Japanese kits, and staying away from Academy/Trumpeter.

Robertson

Aircraft kits, they are not an easy subject to research, simlpy becouse the way they are made: aircraft production. There are prototypes, preproduction aircraft, first series, first modifications, first upgrades, modernizations, not all of the modernizations are introduced into earlier production examples. . . What we end up with is a mix of airframes where it is almost imposible to draw a line between the versions. (See for example the MiG-21 families of aircraft) The aircraft are manufactured by different subcontractors both in war and during peace time and there are differences between what they make "here" or "there". What I am trying to say is that it is very far from easy to end up with one 100% design for a particular aircraft type which will 100% correspond to all exapmples of that particular aircraft.

If I was Eduard (or any other manufacturer) I would say that the kit we have is a so an so aircraft with factory number XXX as it was at a given time. That is the only way to be 100% correct in historic authenticity.

Best regards

Gabor

P.s. Hungarian Air Force had just 12 examples (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) of the MiG-19PM's, having had a closer look at them for the research of producing some aftermarkets had to find out that we had three versions (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) within those 12 aircraft! Different panel lines, different details!

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Best regards

Gabor

P.s. Hungarian Air Force had just 12 examples (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) of the MiG-19PM's, having had a closer look at them for the research of producing some aftermarkets had to find out that we had three versions (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) within those 12 aircraft! Different panel lines, different details!

Yes, but that is precisely not what I a talking about. Plastic aircraft kits are more mediocre in general outlines compared to armor kits, and definitely worse than more recent ship models. They, in particular, often make no effort to reproduce correctly the geometry of the wings, almost all of them having wingtips that are way too thick, this just being an average example out of far worse out there:

e779c28e.jpg

il_fullxfull.451072131_8pvl.jpg

Hasegawa's Hurricane is worse than the above, and the new Italeri Hurricane is much worse still. I have seen class-winning Hurricanes, done by world-class modellers, where the top surface of the wings goes down towards the wingtips, so bad was the kit's geometry nullifying the dihedral...

Too flat dihedrals abound, the Tamiya 1/48th P-51 being a noteworthy example, and rarely if ever fixed...

If the wing profile or dihedral is not ridiculously off, then the wing surface is misshapen into an "ballooned" inflated curve, while the bottom is still straight: Hasegawa Ju-87 (all variants):

ju87bmdt_61_zps41260bf6.jpg

Then there is my favourite, assymetrical wings, wing thicknesses or wing taper: This being Hasegawa's otherwise excellent 2008 FW-190A (and by far the world's best FW-190A, just don't mind the droopy elevators here):

DSC00757_zps25a242b8.jpg

On electronic calipers, the left wing is about a scale inch thicker (0.5 mm) than the right, but it still shows up... Unfortunately not visible here because I fixed it, the right wing has also a thicker tip by the same amount(!): This means each wing has a radically different taper, which required carving off a lot of material inside and out...

Granted, it is probably not this type of wing problem that will affect the new Eduard release (Eduard has recently actually been exceptionally good on this aspect), but it does illustrate the general depth of these problems when they often can't even get basics things right like making wings that look like they would work...

Robertson

Edited by Robertson
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Yes, we are speaking about two different questions here. What you are saying about the wings and the shape questions I totally agree on that. But I am also speaking about the details as stated above (I don’t want to repeat that).

Concerning your point I have to add the technological question of kit production. During the design phase of the Eduard MiG-21 bis I visited the company for two days and had a long discussion with the main designer of the kit on points in question for the bis kit but also for the already released MF kit. Amongst others I pointed out the trailing edge question on wings, stabilizers and rudder and the answer was that the technology would not allow a knife edge trailing edge. It is not only the production technology (the press forms itself) but also the plastic temperature, pressure that counts. There is a limit to what one can do in a particular scale. This is where you will see the “rounding” of the surfaces.

This is the technological part of the question but there is also the theoretical side of it. You will find an urge from the manufacturers to make some things working (this is a theoretical question made by a manufacturer during initial planing), like for example on the swing wing fighters, the wings to be shown in both fully forward and swept back position. In order to do this you will have to make compromises, the base of the wing will have to accept inside of it the swept back wing but also you will have the plastic thickness (once again dictated by technology) and you will end up with a wing of out of all proportions thickness. The solution here would be that the manufacturer provides two wings, one for fully forward and one for retracted, but this will increase the number of parts, design costs and in the end production cost reflected in the retail price. So what can we do????

One can accept what is provided by manufacturers or using modeling skills make the necessary adjustments. After all this is part of our hobby!?

Best regards

Gabor

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Gabor,

that's all nice and well, but let's admit it, for now Eduard Mr.Songed the Gustav.

Which is a pity. No excuse.

According to ModelWeb, 10 more days till we know for sure.

Vedran

We havent seen the final production version, have we???

Gabor

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I no longer have any interest in the actual plastic.

Then if I may be so bold as to ask, why do you continue harping about it? If you don't care, move on and let people discuss it who do care.

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Then if I may be so bold as to ask, why do you continue harping about it? If you don't care, move on and let people discuss it who do care.

Because that is the only way that Gashton can get any attention. I also find it odd that for somebody that is always so concerned with everything being dead on accurate he can't even get the proper name of an aircraft.

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