Russia invades Ukraine!

[Tony Stark]

I realize that you're very angry towards me, but I ask that you please take the time to clean up your replies. It's very difficult to read them when you intermix my comments without quoting into yours. This - along with your name calling - does not help anything.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Tony Stark

[mingwin]

So you got nothing? Nice

Yeah, exactly, and was asking if there was anyone who might have better, more up-to-date info than me... because i was eagerly awaiting more info on that subject!

Never heard that one at all. Immaterial anyway. At no point did US Intelligence ever imply the aircraft was shot down by anything other than a SAM.

http://www.npr.org/b...tedly-cut-apart

if you never eard of, it shows that you didn't search very far... and if there was someone i wouldn't trust intel on the Ukraine crisis... sadly, it's USA's intel... not that they could have wrong information as much as they are TOTAL LIARS and misleading, as much as Russians might be... i know this is not popular opinion among US members of this board, but nonetheless it is a rather widely spread opinion around the world!

Really why?

because it's a rather long time, especially for people that could clain on day one that they know what happened (and reject any other possibility...any!) ...but i've done more search, a few minutes ago, and they said that the black box "findings" should be release next month...

Yawn. Good thing its not just the USA saying it then amiright? NO YOU ARE NOT, THERE IS ONLY NATO STATES THAT CLAIM THIS... (which is excuse me, really the very same thing as if it was only USA that where claiming this...)

Again are you trying to imply that it was not shot down? NO, just that I Don'T Know, and that, instead of repeating any propaganda, i ask questions... till i get answers, and till i get it, i'll live with doubt...(but i guess that's too complicated to understand for you? am i wrong???

you then made note that you didn't believe it was shot down, using a theory that hasn't been floated by anyone credible. You then tried to take a parting shot at US Intel, but of course its pretty obvious that its not just the Americans talking about what happened.

you clearly misread... i said i don't believe in conspiracy theory that claim it was a Ukrainian plane that shoot (as it was reported in Malaysian news outlets, among other places...) ...it might not be credible, i admit it, but my guess is that most information sources you consider as "credible" could be considered as pro-Nato biased (and US propaganda team...)

Do you really want to explore this further? What are you denying, implying, and supposing happened instead, rather than pointing out that intel isn;t always right and using an example from 11 years ago? Do you have altrenative sources or information? Did you want to pick this battle? Or did you get caught implying something you can't back up at all? all people that believe in God are doing so... claiming things that they cannot back up... and that doesn't stop them to do so... so i keep my mind open and don't pretend i know the truth...

it might have happened 11 years ago... but it's not like if they have proven any better since! also, it has catastrophic consequences for millions of Iraqis... and the Islamic State crisis that is happening now can be directly linked to the america's actions in Iraq.

[Tony Stark]

as for the "proofs" Kerry said US intelligence have...

Please refresh my memory because I can't look at him and not think of Herman Munster.

Totally reminds me - is anyone else watching The Strain? How freaky were those SpecOps looking vampires last week!!!!! No one tell me who they were; NO SPOILERS!!!!

Edited August 31, 2014 by Tony Stark

[Johnopfor]

Totally reminds me - is anyone else watching The Strain? How freaky were those SpecOps looking vampires last week!!!!! No one tell me who they were; NO SPOILERS!!!!

Yeah, I'm watching it. When the leader spoke, I was half expecting his teeth to fall out. They were Russian Spetznaz based across the border from Chernobyl arriving to rescue Russians from NY......

[Don]

Please refresh my memory because I can't look at him and not think of Herman Munster.

That is just too dang FUNNY ! Makes me feel REALLY safe knowing he's on the job.... :unsure:

[ElectroSoldier]

The lack of a intelligent rebuttal to Tony's post makes me feel his post was accurate.

The Crimea annexation was guaranteed to happen once the Ukraine turned from Mother Russia and look west.

I have started to read it, I was talking to my girlfriend most of the night, she gets a bit moody when I try and read this kind of junk in her time.

There is answers to the first part about Krimea.

The situation is and always has been rather unsettled but fluid there, opinions change with regards to what they want as the political situation changes in Kiev.

In 1991 they voted for autonomy

in 1992 Kiev said they were not allowed and removed all the rights they people of the region wanted.

by 1998 a situation the people of the region wanted started to return but it was limited to what they wanted but it was better than nothing... for instance they could vote to decide what they want to do, but it Kiev disagreed it was seen as a casting vote no matter if 100% of Krimeans wanted it.

When the government in Kiev was rather fluid and open mindied towards Russia they were ok, when the Kiev attitude towards Russia was frosty it wasnt.

The people there are mostly ethnic Russians so its hardly surprising they would want ties with Russia.

Basically what it boils down to is when Kiev is friendly towards Russia they want to be with Ukraine and when Kiev is not friendly towards Russia they want to be autonomous and the right to chose for themselves.

That is pretty much the story, it doesnt matter how you slice it that is peoples opinions there and all the independent statistics collectors in the west all show that to be true too.

But like I said given that most of the people who live there (well over 50%) are ethnic Russians its hardly surprising, and given the way it works there, in the trade for Russian bound cargo is worth money while cargo for Ukraine isnt as much then you start to see a reason for the pattern.

A trade agreement with the EU would not be as lucrative as you might imagine, look at how it worked when the Baltic states and Poland etc joined the EU it would be similar situation with Ukraine, but Ukraine can not really afford to take the hit (produce prices paid in the EU are artificially low because what the farmers dont get for selling their produce they do get topped up in government subsidies) and at the same time as not really getting what their goods are worth they would be borrowing money to pay to upgrade things like public services national infrastructure a whole host of things they cant afford to upgrade in order to come into line with the EU and until they do do that they will not be a full member eligible for all the EU member state benefits.

The situation is not as cut n dried as you might imagine Steve.

What you are talking about with the Russians having a warm water port is a valid point, but its not as important as you might think because the Russian government is prepared to pay for it, however there is yet another EU member state kink to consider if the pro Europeans from the Western regions get their way that will suit them but the people who actually do the work will not.

This whole situation is highlighted by the national language reforms.

They may seem like little to nothing to you however can you imagine if in the United States the government decided that as the country is America then all of its Spanish speaking people will no longer be able to speak in Spanish and if they do it will be at the very least frowned upon because it does not appear to be American.

something like 70% of Krimean residents speak in Russian and have done all their lives, Sevastopol, which is a major city in the south west is closer to 90 odd %

Krimea and Russia has a good parallel in England with Northern Ireland, the majority of the residents there consider themselves British not Irish they want British rule and thats what they have, by armed conflict sure thing... remember the IRA being the enemy to the Unionists... who were the bad guys in all of that, after all Northern Ireland is part of Eire, isnt it?

Once you see the problem for how it actually is for people on the ground, living there today and in the past, how they vote in things regarding the situation they live with day after day over the years it starts to become a little more clear.

The people of Krimea want and have always wanted closer ties with Russia. the only time that changed is when they wanted closer ties with Ukraine because at the time Ukraine wanted closer ties with Russia too, and when they changed so did peoples opinions about closer ties with Ukraine.

I realize that you're very angry towards me, but I ask that you please take the time to clean up your replies. It's very difficult to read them when you intermix my comments without quoting into yours. This - along with your name calling - does not help anything.

I do apologise, you are quite right, calling you childish wasnt called for, but the use of pictures in an interesting debate is not what I would expect at all.

However, Im sorry I offended you.

Im not anrgy, I am perplexed by your single minded assault on Russia without any mention of the actions that lead up to Russian troops moving.

However having said that I cant say Im surprised because they were not even a foot note in a news report in the western worlds media...

Edited August 31, 2014 by ElectroSoldier

[ElectroSoldier]

The lack of a intelligent rebuttal to Tony's post makes me feel his post was accurate.

The full text for the second part, in part can be found here

http://nomadicpolitics.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/putins-power-play-in-crimea-exposes.html

Russification.

I will not go into it, it has no place here however I will say in answer to this, when you read that article it has more than Mexico as a parallel, take the country itself.

Native American Indians for instance...

No I do not think touching on that subject has any place here and I will not comment on it.

He goes on to talk about the gay rights laws in Russia and presents a comical picture "Persecutes gays, enters another country through the back door"

in hope is will reinforce an argument that it shows Putin shows little to no regard for minority rights.

He makes no mention of the actual facts of the law though.

They are not persecuted, they can go about their business as they like, but then other people should have their rights too shouldnt they?

And Russians have the right to chose how they live, they do not and should not have the values of somebody else forced on them, just because it is ok in America and the UK and a lot of other places besides it doesnt mean they have to follow suit.

The part after the picture of Putin is another unquoted copy and paste from the article I mentioned before, which basically points to Russification... and for that I have the same answer as before.

The whole post is pretty much a copy and paste job, and while being accurate in some way or another it doesnt change the fact that it is in fact a MAJORITY DECISION in Krimea to be part of Russia.

Its also been mentioned here that the poll taken as to the independence of Krimea did not include staying with Ukraine.

Its hardly surprising as it was voted that they wanted to be independent with the right to chose back in 1991, and that decision was removed from them in 1992 by Kiev, then a number of years later it was reversed so it was independent on the provision that Kiev could block any decisions made as and when they wanted to regardless of what the people there wanted, the reasons for which I posted earlier.

The option to become totally independent would have given them the ability to align themselves with UA or RU.

[ElectroSoldier]

You're slipping here. If Russia saw the Ukrainian government in crisis, then why didn't it support the interim government instead of making a land grab? The only reason is that Russia is profiting since Ukraine destabilized.

And Taiidan is right -- are you for Russians protecting Russians or Ukrainians? And if it's the latter, then why has Putin supplied assets giving the insurgents such weapons as the kind that shot down MH17?

I think Russia is the focal point here: Putin is like a wasp-keeper that shakes the cage before opening the box on his target (between washing himself of human rights burdens and threatening indefinite imprisonment to dissenters). If that's not bad enough, those that Putin sends his coverts to support are shooting down airliners like its National Shoot the Hell out of Anything that Flies Day.

The focus is on Russia because Ukraine, left alone, was going through government reforms before the referendums and covert incursions. Russia is the focus because it has raised the stakes by crippling its neighbor.

Not slipping at all.

You see it as a land grab

The residents in Eastern Ukraine were being killed by Ukrainian troops from the army.

The residents either defended themselves or run away into Russia

Russia saw that they were being forced to run away because their own army was attacking them

Russia moved to protect them because they couldnt protect themselves.

Russia moved to Krimea because had they not it is likely the same would have happened there too because they were the same in Krimean and in Easter Ukraine.

If you shift your perspective a little it might become clear as to what is happening... but you would need to know what happened before to make sense of what is happening now, and as it wasnt reported in any western media Ive seen it doesnt surprise me you dont know it happened like that at all.

They were provided with weapons to counter the threat that was facing them!

Does that not tell you a little about what was happening?

Putin as a wasp keeper...

No.

If the pro Europeans had forced an election as it should have been them maybe yes, if they had made a move to call a general election as they said then maybe yes, if they had not started to change the established laws of the country to favor their own aims then maybe yes.

The elected government was removed by force

The group who removed the government had other legal options and didnt use them there were riots and deaths and they staged a coup

Once they had power they set about changing the criminal laws of the country so the their political leaders would no longer be guilty...

She was not found innocent, they changed the law so she was innocent de facto.

They changed the language law which drove the pro Russian people (the political enemy) into isolation.

They sent the army in to settle by force those pro Russian people and kill those who wouldnt do what they wanted

You think that its ok to do that?

[zerosystem]

Please refresh my memory because I can't look at him and not think of Herman Munster.

Totally reminds me - is anyone else watching The Strain? How freaky were those SpecOps looking vampires last week!!!!! No one tell me who they were; NO SPOILERS!!!!

Munster actually has charisma, Liveshot has none...

[ElectroSoldier]

Maybe they should have free elections there, strike down laws that single out and punish political enemies themselves, before Russians move to stop Ukraine from doing the same thing, through force of arms?

Stop me if I am going too fast.

so when are the Russians setting up the free Ukrainian elections to pick their own government? have they set a date, where the good people can choose themselves? Will they have the same vote for Independence for Chechnya?

Just trying to figure out the rules, because boy this is confusing.

So the Russians are there to support? Big difference between support and you know, occupation and "reunification"

So here is the thing, I am more than willing to admit that Ukraine was going through turmoil and was making mistakes, but whether that warrants a military invasion by Putin's Russia... well thats a stretch. And I might be more willing to believe that Putin was trying to Ukraine back on track, if he wasn't doing the exact same thing you are saying the Ukrainian government did that was wrong. Nextly if Russia believes its in the right, I don't know why all the cloak and dagger of sending troops without national symbols etc.

It is the government in Kiev that needs to setup a general election to pick their own government.

The government that is in place at the minute is not an elected one, they seized power from the elected government and so far have yet to have an election as they claimed they would, they first setup a set of laws to isolate their political opponents...

What you call an invasion I see more as an armed force sent to help those who can not help themselves (they have no military of their own, their military were the possible threat).

The government in power has shown it is more than willing to send the army after its civilian population in order to achieve its goals.

Sending troops without national insignia was probably because while crossing they did not want to be seen as an invading force, after all if they are going there to bolster the people they are going to support they are not what you think they are.

The solution to this is in the hands of the coup leaders in Kiev.

Edited September 1, 2014 by ElectroSoldier

[ElectroSoldier]

I appreciated the pictures breaking up long walls of text and also adding a bit of entertainment, but if you want to use it as an excuse to stop reading, thats fine. so long as you don't imply you are more mature for not simply ignoring them and reading the text, which is really what it was about.

I can read it without having the endure the pictures.

Here it is for you with some more relevent images

http://nomadicpolitics.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/putins-power-play-in-crimea-exposes.html

[ElectroSoldier]

Just think how popular he will be in the Ukraine!! I can't wait for the good people of Ukraine to get a nice honest election and just sort this whole thing out, without a bunch of shenanigans. With Putin around, fairness is guaranteed.

I have no doubt an election will be called now that the political opponents have been driven into another country, killed by government troops, driven into isolation and are no longer able to vote it will be a landslide victory for the pro Europeans and they will get what they want.

However with what is happening in the East its hard to say if it will be the victory they actually need given what is there and what the people of the region want as a result of what the government has done.

But Im sure you already know what Im talking about.

[Check Six]

wish I was kidding

http://www.nytimes.c...n-chechnya.html

That ranks right up there with convicted felons and dead people voting exclusively, coincidentally, for Democrats in hotly contested races !

FYI: For those that don't know; Convicted felons and dead people are not allowed to vote in the U.S.

[TomcatFanatic123]

...We can't even get traffic moving after a Dodgers game.

It's funny because it's true...

Edited September 1, 2014 by TomcatFanatic123

[TheFlyingDutchman]

funny someone bring back MH17 shooting... anyone have news of what happened to the blackboxes??? it's the total blackout about those since they where given to Netherlands authorities... i'm surprise that we have had no news since... not even a :"saddly the boxes reveal nothing...but that does not mean russians didn't have shootdown the plane..."kind of line...

I spent a year at the Dutch Safety Board during my internship and it might surprise you how long it takes to do a thorough investigation. I really don't know how far they are as my internship ended last February but I'm sure they will come up with some preliminary report soon, just to answer some questions or to show that they are actually working on it.

[11bee]

I spent a year at the Dutch Safety Board during my internship and it might surprise you how long it takes to do a thorough investigation. I really don't know how far they are as my internship ended last February but I'm sure they will come up with some preliminary report soon, just to answer some questions or to show that they are actually working on it.

But... but this explanation gets in the way of the conspiracy rumors. How are folks going to remain suspicious (like the ARC'er earlier in this thread) when it turns out the delay was due to something as basic as this.

Are you sure you didn't really mean that the evil western powers just needed more time to doctor the CVR and FDR tapes?

[Fellow Hobbyist]

...dead people are not allowed to vote in the U.S.

Necro-Americans have rights too!

[Exhausted]

Looks like Russia will be forced to either commit to larger war or pull back soon. NATO is building a new response force.

This will shape the coming responses from all sides.

I hate that Crimea is pretty much lost to the dark side, but any part of Ukraine that survives will be welcome to the wealth and protection of the free world.

[ElectroSoldier]

Russia did take control of Crimea, Ukraine.....is this the assult you are talking about or are you talking about the military action Russia did in the Eastern Region of Ukraine? Which pro-Russian Ukraiians are you talking about....the people in Eastern Ukraine or Crimea? Why do you talk only about Pro-Russian refugees and not Pro-Russian refugees? Do the Pro-Ukrainian refugees not have any value to you?

The assault I am talking about is the one you see, which in my mind does not match with what you see.

You see it as Russia attacking Ukraine without provocation and then making a clandestine move to Krimea to secure the land and ports there.

In my mind I see the regular army of Ukraine under the control of the pro Europeans in Kiev (the ones who took power from the elected government and changed the laws without a legal right to) attacking pro Russian civilians in eastern regions.

I see Russia moving in to help them defend themselves from those troops (in the east)

I see Russia moving in such a way so as not to cause civilian panic and alarm to further assist the pro Russian Ukrainians in Krimea because they would have been next on the list of targets to be removed. (the pro Europeans would have a perfect excuse to do this due to the unrest in the east)

Since seizing control of the country from the elected government all they have done is drive their political enemies into isolation (because they could not beat them by legal means) and then use the military to attack them.

Russia had no choice but to annex Crimea. The Ukraine had gone steadily anti-Russian and with each move Russia made to get Ukraine to be pro-Russian.....the Ukraine went further down the road of being anti-Russian. At that point Russian had no hope to estabish a peaceful agreement regarding it's warm water port in Crimea and further.....Russia really could not take the chance or trusting the Ukrainians to live up to any agreement. Also I don't think Russian is a very rich country....so why would they pay Ukraine money for a lease if they could just annex Crimea and pay nothing?

But that doesnt actually match the facts as they have unfolded since 1991.

Ukraine has not gone steadily anti Russian with each move, the pro Europeans always were anti Russian, the pro Russians were always that way and the Ukrainian independents who are in a minority in many ways will go with what the government sees as best for Ukraine.

Ukraine went further down the road of being anti Russian after the pro Europeans seized power in a coup, which they did because the elected government turned down the EU offer because it was not very good for what they actually NEED rather than what they want.

You are right Russia could not take the chance of anything after the pro Europeans did what they did, after all its now a police state with any political opposition to them put to the sword (or shells in this case)

As to the last part about needing to annex Krimea, it is complicated but

Krimea was given the right to chose what they will do in 1991, this was lawful, in 1992 it was reversed by Kiev it was a puppet autonomy, in that they can decide however if Kiev doesnt like it they can say no and no it is.

Given that the majority of people in Krimea in pro Russian do you really find it so hard to believe that they would want strong links with Russia over Europe?

There were in effect only two options in the vote about Krimea (in that there was no option to stay with Ukraine) because that is pretty much what they had anyway, the vote was to bolster what they already had (remove the strangle hold imposed on them by Kiev) or go wholeheartedly with Russia... remember the majority of the people there are pro Russian. is the result such a surprise as I said before, and bearing that in mind, Krimean having the right to chose is it hard to believe Russia was not so worried about getting access to ports there...

Russia will hold that land bridge with necessary military assets. That land and Crimea will effectively become Russian territory. Anyone that tries to take back that land will be taking on the Russian military. Ukraine does not have a military that could stand up to Russia. My guess is that land bridge will be 50 to 100 km wide.

My guess is that Russia will be restricting gas shipments to Western Europe as much as the Russian economy can endure and I suspect Russia will stop all gas shipments to the Ukraine.

Russia will hold the land until there are free elections in a none bias state.

The laws that have been changed to more suit the pro europeans should be changed back to a pre coup state, and that goes for the legal laws regarding Yulia Tymoshenko (the government that is in power now did not over-turn the guilty verdict, she was guilty, they changed the law so it was no longer a crime).

Ok.....I can see by this statement you are quite upset by this while situation and I am sorry for that....I have no interest in causing you grief. To date there has been amazing restraint by Russian and Ukrainian and separatist forces and even NATO. With the exception of the airliner shot down by the Russian built missile.....there has not been much killing of civilians. But if anyone takes up weapons to fight any government in any country.....you can expect that government to kill them. So I am not really able to answer your last question as it is clouded in too much of your passion and emotions.

I am not here to argue.....I am only here to discuss. You and I have no control of this situation......the events will unravel like an old book...one page at a time. We are like 2 grains of sand in a vast desert complaining about the winds as they blow form the east or the west.

To Russia's credit they have played this situation very well. Their skill at annexing Crimea and securing a land bridge to supply Crimea has been done with very little damage to the area including their naval base and with very little loss of life. If NATO or any western power tried to do this.....I suspect they would have rolled in with total military force. So Russia does deserve credit for that.

On the negative side......the downing on the civilian airliner by the Russian made missile makes me think very poorly of Russia. Sorry but the loss of those 298 civilians on that airliner could never justify anything Russia will gain from all this.

So because of the airliner......this has been a huge fail for Russia. Please note I did not say Russia shot down the airliner.....all I said was the airliner was shot down by a Russian made missile.

I can and will discuss, I have no desire to turn this into anything other than an analysis of the situation, as you say we have no control over any of it, however getting people to understand the situation in Ukraine rather than Putin and Russia seems to be the hardest task here, everybody is so focused on Putin, Russian troops and sad loss of an airliner that they lose sight of WHY Putin has done what he has done, and I fear that until you focus on why it happened no solution will be possible because the problem will remain.

[TheFlyingDutchman]

But... but this explanation gets in the way of the conspiracy rumors. How are folks going to remain suspicious (like the ARC'er earlier in this thread) when it turns out the delay was due to something as basic as this.

Are you sure you didn't really mean that the evil western powers just needed more time to doctor the CVR and FDR tapes?

Identifying all victims takes a lot of time as it is very difficult to come up with fake autopsy reports - I mean, they don't want people to know that MH17 actually was a remote controlled flight full of dead bodies and explosives to blame the Russian separatists. (yes, that's an actual conspiracy theory, it makes me sick)

[Benner]

okay, a question, if the Ukraine military were attacking pro-russian Ukraine citizens in East Ukraine, what caused the military to attack? That would be like ordering the USMC to attack Los Angeles and shooting civilians for no reason. If there were people showing up with arms and seizing government buildings and such, I would certainly consider that valid use of military force. I know my local police force wouldn't be able to handle such an incident if that ever happened here. Part of the US Oath of Enlistment is of course to defend against enemies foreign, and domestic.

If Ukraine's attack on "rebels" is illegal, I seriously doubt Russia's actions have been legal in the International view. Given the argument Russia is trying to protect innocent people, why have they been against intervention in Syria? Or is it fine because the Syrian government is the elected government?

[Linden Hill]

Does it matter where I am from? Does it matter what my first language is?

It matters because you are representing a (Russian) point of view on a Canadian-based forum and obfuscating about your motives for doing so. Why did you represent yourself as being 'from the UK' in earlier posts, yet now it shouldn't matter where you are from?

I'd hesitate to call you a Putinbot, as you've contributed to many other non-political, God forbid, modeling-related threads, but at least have the courage of your own convictions.

[11bee]

Identifying all victims takes a lot of time as it is very difficult to come up with fake autopsy reports - I mean, they don't want people to know that MH17 actually was a remote controlled flight full of dead bodies and explosives to blame the Russian separatists. (yes, that's an actual conspiracy theory, it makes me sick)

I heard the same story, it has to be true. To demonstrate how nefarious this plot was, NATO intelligence agents even took the time to outfit the dead corpse with credit cards, phones and jewelry, most of which was promptly looted by the local ghouls, sorry, citizens shortly after the crash.

Edited September 2, 2014 by 11bee