Russia invades Ukraine!

[Horrido]

This was amusing......it is hard to respect a military that has no clue where they are regarding borders.

All Russian navigators are desciples of Ivan Susanin.

[SBARC]

All Russian navigators are desciples of Ivan Susanin.

I had to google his name.....it's an interesting little story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Susanin

[ElectroSoldier]

The more troubling side to this is why did Russia need to take back Crimea when the Ukrainians were happy to lease that area to them on a long term lease? Either Russia enjoys intimidating their little poorly armed neighbours......or there is a bigger game and Russia needed to make Crimea part of Russia or perhaps Russia is too poor to afford the lease.

Ive deleted the majority however I can tell you this.

Before all this flared up into the international news there has been problems in Ukraine for quite a few years.

The population of Krimea and a large part of eastern Ukraine is Russian. and there are certain people (groups of) in Ukraine that dont like it, however they have been there for so long they dont have a home anywhere else.

The now ruling powers change things, things like make it a law that you can only speak in Ukrainian language, so as to chip away at what they do have.

There were riots in Ukraine, Ukrainian against Ukrainian because government policies changed so as to force forward plans that the country simply can not afford.

Certain places had more problems than others, some oblasts it seemed like the majority didnt want the changes and the violence started...

Then you got the refugees running away from the problems and the only place to run was east, to Russia.

Russia realised they had to help, they couldnt just leave them there, they would die without help.

Inspite of popular belief the Russians did not regard Krimea with envious eyes, the ports along the coast are a valuable trade route and at first sight seem a more than good enough reason to start a war, however there is a lot more going on than meets the eye, and a hell of a lot more going on than is reported in our news.

[Berkut]

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.

I liked Canada's tweet yesterday about Russian soldiers who kept getting "lost" and entering into Ukraine.

More like bad attempt at being funny. And i guess the white areas are up for grabs for Russians? ;)

[Jinxter13]

All Russian navigators are desciples of Ivan Susanin.

maybe they went to a school founded by Douglas "Wrongway" Corrigan

[toadwbg]

It is rather amusing from a strategic point of view the level of grief Russia is getting from taking over the Crimea. Their economy has taken a hit and they are dithering around with Ukraine doing something that should have been a 1 or 2 week operation in 1939. Stalin must be rolling over in his grave at the way Putin has mucked this up.

Exactly.

Hey Putin, The 20th century called, they want their European boarders back.

[mingwin]

Exactly.

Hey Putin, The 20th century called, they want their European boarders back.

...does this mean we'll have USSR back? that would be awesome!

[mingwin]

More like bad attempt at being funny. And i guess the white areas are up for grabs for Russians?

i agree with you, a poor (and misplaced) attempt at being funny... and a total success at making me feel ashamed being Canadian... (at least i can comfort myself thinking those ****** only represents (the policies of) the 37% canadians that vote for them...(12% in my province...)...still hope for Canada...)

maybe Russia will bring this back when we'll try to argue about the arctic sovereignty of Canada :

NOT CANADA

and then we'll think it would have been better advised not to use our diplomatic channel for the purpose of trying to please our conservative voters...

another great opportunity missed here...

[Slartibartfast]

Exactly.

Hey Putin, The 20th century called, they want their European boarders back.

Your spelling error is in truth a great pun!

[Johnopfor]

You guys got it all wrong. The Russians didn't invade the Ukraine, the Ukrainian border jumped over the Russian troops and started running east......

[toadwbg]

Your spelling error is in truth a great pun!

[Johnopfor]

Seems outclassed by the gal sporting FS 36118 at 2 o'clock.

Yeah, after spotting that, it took a while to find Bradgelina.

[Linden Hill]

Ive deleted the majority however I can tell you this.

Sir:

I've read a few of your posts and am somewhat confused by your assertion in an earlier thread that you are 'from the UK'. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you are not a native Anglophone. According to my school books, Florence Nightingale performed her 19th century saintly medical deeds in Crimea, not Krimea.

The viewpoint you represent is unambiguously Russo-centric, which is fine as long as you provide context.

I'd like to know your opinion on the the role irredentism plays in Russian foreign policy, particular with regard to former Soviet republics who quite legitimately through the ballot box expressed a desire to exist independent of the Russocentric Soviet sphere of influence just over twenty years ago.

A good example would be Ukraine's independence vote in December 1991, which was considered a free plebiscite by all parties. At the time both both the Lugansk (note I'm using the Russo-Anglophone spelling) and Donetsk Oblasts voted for independence by around 83% (approx. 14% against. Official turnout was 84% of the electorate). Even Crimea voted by 54% to 42% (admittedly with 60% turnout) for independence. These figures are quoted from historian Serhii Plokhii in his book on the collapse of the USSR, 'The Last Empire'. Yes, he has a Ukrainian name, but I'm sure you won't hold that against him.

So, Electrosoldier, what's changed? Why did ethnic Russians in Ukraine want to try their luck in a new country twenty years ago? Who might be behind this tragically violent turn of events, despite there being no indication of unrest prior to the ending of the Sochi Olympics. Why is Western Ukraine, historically 'European' as former territories of Austria Hungary and Pre-WWII Poland would naturally be (despite Stalin's best efforts), now considered 100% 'fascist' by the current occupant of the Kremlin?

There is no doubt that small numbers of questionable right-wing elements from Galicia, Volhynia. etc. did play a role in the Euro-Maidan (there are also similar anti-Semitic groups in Russia itself, who do not appear to be proscribed). However, there is also no doubt that the majority of Ukrainian citizens of whatever ethnicity were also sick of the corruption of the previous Yanukovich Government and wanted a new start.

What is your attitude to ethnic Russians living in other neighboring countries? Is anywhere a Russian person lives automatically Russian territory? Moldova? Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania? North Kazakhstan?

100 years ago in the Balkans, there was a similar Serbian Slavic irredentist movement, resulting in two Balkan wars and a 'Great War', which was carried on into WWII and finally the 1990s. In the dying days of the USSR Gorbachev's last throw of the dice to keep Ukraine within 'the Union' was to foment unrest in Eastern Ukraine in December 1991. He was talked out of it by advisors, who cautioned him that it would be an unbelievably callous course of action and potentially a 'Yugoslavia with nuclear weapons' (cf. 'The Last Empire', Serhii Plokhii). Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in 1994 with the understanding that its borders were recognized by all signatories of the Budapest Memorandum (UK, USA, RF).

For my part, I have friends and business partners on both sides of the unfortunate divide, who want nothing more than peace to prevail. I also consider myself a committed Russophile. Many of my close friends in Moscow see no sense in this entire adventure. What's your spin, Electrosoldier?

Bollocks, I've said too much. Maybe Steve should just close down this thread as being way too political, because that's what it is. It does say 'NO POLITICS' at the top after all.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Linden Hill

[Exhausted]

My question is that if Russia honors referendums to cede from sovereign states, then why are Chechnya and Dogestan still inside Sov-I mean Russian borders?

[SBARC]

The now ruling powers change things, things like make it a law that you can only speak in Ukrainian language, so as to chip away at what they do have.

I was not aware that speaking Russian is now a crime in the Ukraine. I thought the law removed Russia from being an official language in the Ukraine? Are you saying if a Ukrainian citizen speaks Russian they will be arrested? If I went to Ukraine and spoke English...I would be breaking the law and I would be arrested?

[SBARC]

Hey Linden Hill.....I enjoyed your post. :cheers:/>/>

I was talking to a guy at work tonight.....he is a serb from Yugoslavia......he left there and moved to Canadas when the war got going back in the '90's. His views are very pro-Russian.....so I thought I would ask him his view.

"So what is going on in the Ukraine?"

"It's all caused by the Americans."

----------------------------------

According to him the Russians have almost nothing to do with it and it is all caused by the USA. I asked him about the Russians invading Eastern Ukraine and taking over Crimea....he said the bulk of people in those areas are Russian...so it is ok.

By his way of thinking....in 20 years China could invade the west coast of Canada and claim Vancouver as part of China because of all the ethnic Chinese living there.......I guess certain British cities will soon in part of the country of Pakistan.

[Tony Stark]

"It's all caused by the Americans."

We did that? I'm impressed! We can't even get traffic moving after a Dodgers game.

[TaiidanTomcat]

We did that? I'm impressed! We can't even get traffic moving after a Dodgers game.

LOL

[TaiidanTomcat]

Hey Linden Hill.....I enjoyed your post. :cheers:/>/>/>/>

I was talking to a guy at work tonight.....he is a serb from Yugoslavia......he left there and moved to Canadas when the war got going back in the '90's. His views are very pro-Russian.....so I thought I would ask him his view.

"So what is going on in the Ukraine?"

"It's all caused by the Americans."

----------------------------------

According to him the Russians have almost nothing to do with it and it is all caused by the USA. I asked him about the Russians invading Eastern Ukraine and taking over Crimea....he said the bulk of people in those areas are Russian...so it is ok.

By his way of thinking....in 20 years China could invade the west coast of Canada and claim Vancouver as part of China because of all the ethnic Chinese living there.......I guess certain British cities will soon in part of the country of Pakistan.

did you ask if he would mind being deported back to Serbia, as the bulk of Serbs are there?

Edited August 29, 2014 by TaiidanTomcat

[mingwin]

interesting post Linden Hill, but i don't see contradiction in the fact that, in 1991, some people voted to leave the USSR, and communist lifestyle... (even if that means to secede from other ethnic Russians for some...)...with Ukraine...

and then, more than 20 years later, 20 years of disillusionment... (and the raise of some russophobic sentiment in Ukraine(and actions like the needs of bringing down old Lenin statues))...russian ethnic ukrainians express the will to join back Russia.

Edited August 29, 2014 by mingwin

[mingwin]

My question is that if Russia honors referendums to cede from sovereign states, then why are Chechnya and Dogestan still inside Sov-I mean Russian borders?

first, there was not referendums on secession from USSR... only a "sovereignty declaration" of the Chechen-Ingush Republic in 1991... and Dagestan insurgency is mainly due to Islamic group Shariat Jamaat...

i highly doubt that Russia will recognize states that use terrorism against them, bombing airports, metro... taking hundreds of hostages in theaters and primary schools...to name only a few examples... i highly doubt that any states (even USA) would do, in similar situation...

but maybe you'd rather like two new "Caliphate" near the Russian borders... like the one of the ISIS... i don't know why, Russia didn't like the idea...

[Grey Ghost 531]

We did that? I'm impressed! We can't even get traffic moving after a Dodgers game.

Out of Chavez Ravine? It's hard to merge into 80mph traffic using blind on-ramps designed when Model As were the state of the art.

[Tony Stark]

Out of Chavez Ravine? It's hard to merge into 80mph traffic using blind on-ramps designed when Model As were the state of the art.

Well, that describes much of L.A.

Actually, between the traffic, the gangs, and the LAPD, I'd like to see the Russians attempt an invasion of L.A.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Tony Stark

[11bee]

I was talking to a guy at work tonight.....he is a serb from Yugoslavia......he left there and moved to Canadas when the war got going back in the '90's. His views are very pro-Russian.....so I thought I would ask him his view.

"So what is going on in the Ukraine?"

"It's all caused by the Americans."

This would be funny except that it's actually true. The Russian propaganda machine is operating at levels not seen since the 50's. It seems like the majority of their citizens actually believe this stuff. Some of the "news" put out after the downing of MH17 was a good example. The stranger the conspiracy, the faster it is accepted as the truth.

[ElectroSoldier]

Sir:

I've read a few of your posts and am somewhat confused by your assertion in an earlier thread that you are 'from the UK'. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you are not a native Anglophone. According to my school books, Florence Nightingale performed her 19th century saintly medical deeds in Crimea, not Krimea.

The viewpoint you represent is unambiguously Russo-centric, which is fine as long as you provide context.

I'd like to know your opinion on the the role irredentism plays in Russian foreign policy, particular with regard to former Soviet republics who quite legitimately through the ballot box expressed a desire to exist independent of the Russocentric Soviet sphere of influence just over twenty years ago.

A good example would be Ukraine's independence vote in December 1991, which was considered a free plebiscite by all parties. At the time both both the Lugansk (note I'm using the Russo-Anglophone spelling) and Donetsk Oblasts voted for independence by around 83% (approx. 14% against. Official turnout was 84% of the electorate). Even Crimea voted by 54% to 42% (admittedly with 60% turnout) for independence. These figures are quoted from historian Serhii Plokhii in his book on the collapse of the USSR, 'The Last Empire'. Yes, he has a Ukrainian name, but I'm sure you won't hold that against him.

So, Electrosoldier, what's changed? Why did ethnic Russians in Ukraine want to try their luck in a new country twenty years ago? Who might be behind this tragically violent turn of events, despite there being no indication of unrest prior to the ending of the Sochi Olympics. Why is Western Ukraine, historically 'European' as former territories of Austria Hungary and Pre-WWII Poland would naturally be (despite Stalin's best efforts), now considered 100% 'fascist' by the current occupant of the Kremlin?

There is no doubt that small numbers of questionable right-wing elements from Galicia, Volhynia. etc. did play a role in the Euro-Maidan (there are also similar anti-Semitic groups in Russia itself, who do not appear to be proscribed). However, there is also no doubt that the majority of Ukrainian citizens of whatever ethnicity were also sick of the corruption of the previous Yanukovich Government and wanted a new start.

What is your attitude to ethnic Russians living in other neighboring countries? Is anywhere a Russian person lives automatically Russian territory? Moldova? Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania? North Kazakhstan?

100 years ago in the Balkans, there was a similar Serbian Slavic irredentist movement, resulting in two Balkan wars and a 'Great War', which was carried on into WWII and finally the 1990s. In the dying days of the USSR Gorbachev's last throw of the dice to keep Ukraine within 'the Union' was to foment unrest in Eastern Ukraine in December 1991. He was talked out of it by advisors, who cautioned him that it would be an unbelievably callous course of action and potentially a 'Yugoslavia with nuclear weapons' (cf. 'The Last Empire', Serhii Plokhii). Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in 1994 with the understanding that its borders were recognized by all signatories of the Budapest Memorandum (UK, USA, RF).

For my part, I have friends and business partners on both sides of the unfortunate divide, who want nothing more than peace to prevail. I also consider myself a committed Russophile. Many of my close friends in Moscow see no sense in this entire adventure. What's your spin, Electrosoldier?

Bollocks, I've said too much. Maybe Steve should just close down this thread as being way too political, because that's what it is. It does say 'NO POLITICS' at the top after all.

Does it matter where I am from? Does it matter what my first language is?

2012 Riots against the change in the official language. (No SBARC you cant be arrested for speaking Russian in your own home, but outside of it they really do not like it when you speak in Russian and Im talking in Kiev to buy food and other shopping)

2013 Riots by pro European supports when the elected leader decided closer ties with Russia were best for Ukraine. (Euromaidan) pro Europeans forced the government out and installed a new one, which leads to the situation we have now, peoples thoughts and feelings about it did not stop just because they went quiet for a while.

This started then and when you look at what is actually needed for the pro Europeans to get what they want you will see Ukraine can not do it alone. and they will get no real help form the EU. (can you imagine what would happen here if the government announced we as part of the EU will spend our money to upgrade UA so its ready for EU membership!)

I would support any that act for and in the best interests of Ukraine and Ukrainian people. and if you look at the situation there and what is needed then doing what you might not like in order to get your long term goal.

They didnt change, independence for Ukraine I believe is still very much wanted, its who is helping who thats the problem.

My spin is Russia didnt move until the refugees did.

And I think no different to your friends, it isnt helping Ukraine or Russia but when your people are getting kill what else will you do!