Kevan Vogler Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Isn't the Ark of the Covenant stored in there somewhere? Darius No, I'm reasonably sure that's tucked away somewhere in my girlfriend's wardrobe case along with the Holy Grail and a public transit route map for the city of Atlantis. Seriously though, I would think any savvy producer of either kits or aftermarket items would know that posting up nice CAD images of projected upcoming products doesn't thrill potential customers as it once did. They really are just another form of "vapourware" until test shots exist. I put them in league with those times when certain kit manufacturers publish a list of "upcoming" kits that include projected release dates, but never do materialize in the end. It will keep people talking for a while, but ultimately they will want to you to follow it up with physical product in a timely manner or will lose interest. It's also a form of tipping your hand to the competition. We've seen a few instances over the past few years where kit manufacturers got a bit too generous with announcements and preview images of impending products before much progress had been made on them and their competition used that to their advantage to beat them to the market. These days, I'd rather see producers wait until they were far enough along to post images of old school test shot sprues and builds as a preview than CAD images. They are a much better indicator of the true nature of the finished product than CAD previews. Edited February 10, 2015 by Kevan Vogler Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) How interesting that the couple of negative critiques come directly from competitors (i checked the link of your sales websites). Well, here is my answer: Millions of customers can't be wrong ;)/>/>/> This is just ONE of the warehouses of Shapeways (because they are now located in the US as well, at several locations). This one is located in Holland and used to house giant air balloons (Zeppelins). It just gives you an idea of what is happening right now. I know, it is hard to see a "new" competitor sometimes, but you're gonna have to live with it. I told someone about a year ago: Beware, as soon as all my systems are reinstalled, i will start my bulldozer. Well, now my bulldozer is running. People have just seen the tip of what is coming and what i am currently working on. Stephane Dear Stephane, please don't get me wrong and this is surely not meant as an offence but honestly I need to admit I don't understand Your altitude, Your behavior and the way You response here. EDIT! By the way; I'm only a modeling enthusiast ... not an opponent or competitor, I do not want to tear You or Your products into the mud but I want to see what I would get for my money especially if it does not come cheap ... Therefore show us Your bulldozer in action but no long replies in offence, show us simply Your products. All the best for Your product line, Deino Edited February 10, 2015 by Deino Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scotthldr Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I do not want to tear You or Your products into the mud Hi Deino, Regardless of any past experiences you may have with Stephane, I find your input and attitude within this thread very very offensive and down right rude. You state that you don't want to tear him into the mud, but after reading your post you've done a bloody good job of it. Give the guy a chance maybe he'll come good maybe not, until then encourage him and anyone else that wants to produce much needed items. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Hi Deino, Regardless of any past experiences you may have with Stephane, I find your input and attitude within this thread very very offensive and down right rude. You state that you don't want to tear him into the mud, but after reading your post you've done a bloody good job of it. Give the guy a chance maybe he'll come good maybe not, until then encourage him and anyone else that wants to produce much needed items. I surely give him a chance, but honestly all we get even after kind requests for more information or simply reminds to this and that from other experienced members are either offensive replies as if we are competitors or silence. The chance would be to argue, to show how he solved the mentioned problem simply by showing a final product ... and not by telling the other one a competitor. Just remember the items from Wingmen and I know the CAD-designer in person quite well and the CAD-design is brilliant ... the final product had at first some severe flaws and this was shown and even responded by the team from Wingman ... here only get some unfriendly replies and offence ... and again before I pay I want to get a look on the product and no long explanations that this and that and we all know nothing from that stuff. Yes, You are correct, I'm not in the best mood but so far he has shown me nothing to change my mind ... Deino Edited February 10, 2015 by Deino Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scotthldr Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 If he can't produce the goods then it will be a matter of people not buying them and he will eventually give up, no one loses except for himself. On the other hand he may be able to produce these goods as good as he says he can, but in all honesty and due to several negative posts within this thread why should he bother. As they say "Rome wasn't built in a day", and until he produces the goods I will offer my support. If the goods aren't up to scratch then I will tell him just that, but I will also offer my gratitude for trying in the first place, which is the hardest part of all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deino Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Agreed again ... but simply an Image would tell more than thousand words ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fulcrum1 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I love this guy, I really do. His enthusiasm is spot on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PMG Offramp Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 There will be PMG, don't worry there will be, one thing at a time. I am still finalizing a few little things on the various files and verifying each single component to make sure i have not forgotten anything. I am still working at two or three other files i have not shown yet which i will release with those, and there are more things coming. I am working non-stop since December 25. There are many other things i am also working on i cannot show you yet that will be announced in due time. Stephane Stratosphere Models Email: stratospheremodels@yahoo.fr Website: http://www.picturetr...atospheremodels I have nothing against you, I'm not a producer of any sort, just a potential customer but seriously, you need to cut the bombastic talk & really post pics of the parts. Saying you're "starting your bulldozer" or "there will be nothing equivalent detail & accuracy wise" isn't worth a rabbit fart unless you can back this up with pics quickly, it's a matter of image ;-) Sans rancune Bob... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stratospheremodels Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Hi Kevan, Wow, your wife must have quite a big wardrobe box ;) ! "Seriously though, I would think any savvy producer of either kits or aftermarket items would know that posting up nice CAD images of projected upcoming products doesn't thrill potential customers as it once did." That is your personal opinion. My view is quite different, i would say for myself i am tired of all the boring grey on grey CAD drawings of the various injected kit companies. I don't find them attractive. Also, when they show a few CAD models of aircrafts, their molds have already been cut and it's too late for them to change their design. So they usually make modelers quite unhappy with that practice, because what's the point of showing CAD renderings when the molds have already been cut ? They would be better off just showing the test shots as you said, because it is too late for them to correct their molds. "They really are just another form of "vaporware" until test shots exist." You are talking about two totally different things here: You mentioned test sprue shots a few lines below. I am not a manufacturer of injected kit, i am announcing resin parts, not injected plastic. So you are not going to see sprue test shots because this is not what i make. Talking of "vaporware" (a term i find is often used in a derogative manner), no such thing here. What you see is the tooling, not an illustration, or rather, it is a 2D rendering of a 3D mathematical shape that can be used to reproduce it in 3D directly from a 3D printer, or CNC cut into an injected mold. The 3D models i now make ARE the tooling. So what you see is the final product (in many cases). What will come after will be a reproduction. So there is no "vapor" here whatsoever. "I put them in league with those times when certain kit manufacturers publish a list of "upcoming" kits that include projected release dates, but never do materialize in the end. It will keep people talking for a while, but ultimately they will want to you to follow it up with physical product in a timely manner or will lose interest." That's a perception not a fact. Wish lists from manufacturers and actual 3D files of complete parts are two different things. "It's also a form of tipping your hand to the competition. We've seen a few instances over the past few years where kit manufacturers got a bit too generous with announcements and preview images of impending products before much progress had been made on them and their competition used that to their advantage to beat them to the market." Actually, some segment of my competition have been complaining since years at how i keep my cards too close to my chest... I am not worried about that. If i was saying: " Here is the first parts of a complete 1/32nd scale F-15 and there will be 500 detailed parts in it." I would be in trouble if it was the case, as the F-15 is a popular subject and designing 500 parts would take a long time with CAD. The other reason i am not worried is that there are already lots of Mirage 2000 parts out there. The problem is, most of them (not all) did not do the job right, so i am coming after, with more detailed and or more accurate parts. The subject being popular, people won't stop buying detail parts just because it's been 2 years after the kit came out. The best thing i have observed from my past experience is to build up enthusiasm for the new projects, you can never do that when you just say: ok, here is the boring looking picture of the test shot, and the kit is now available... 2 days later it's already forgotten and gone off the radar because there are so many posts. So, by me showing CAD renderings, i give people an occasion to give me their feedback about the shape of the parts and about any details i may have missed. That is the whole point :) . Because unlike several of the new kit manufacturers, i don't want to do like some who just entice people with a few grey renderings and then let them think they might possibly make the manufacturer correct the errors of the CAD model, but in fact they never do because their metal molds are already cut. So here i give people an opportunity that few other manufacturers do to obtain the parts with the correct shapes and details, IF i missed anything. *** Now i welcome all pointers from people who KNOW, i.e. people who are related to the aircraft or who work with the aircraft especially, or from people who have those hard to find rare pieces of data on the aircraft, i am always ready to hear from them, they are the ones who can help make things more accurate (ground technicians are especially welcome). "but honestly all we get even after kind requests for more information or simply reminds to this and that from other experienced members are either offensive replies as if we are competitors or silence." Hi Deino, Pls try to find a single line or word where there was an insult in what i posted precedently. I took great time to answer everyone with a host of details which any other large injected kit manufacturer would have simply ignored to inform you about, IF they had answered you at all. My own experience with what i have seen on the forum is that if injected kit manufacturers get subjected to attacks they will simply ignore you and answer only the persons who are being polite with them. Kind requests ? That's not exactly what i have read from some of the posters who seem to think that they are entitled to treat you as if you don't know your job. It doesn't mean that because this is the internet that it means they can throw all forms of respect out the window. On the 2nd point, i did not call you a competitor, but i guess i was little surprised when i learned you are friend with one of them. On the 3rd point, i do not spend every day nor 24 hours a day on the internet. If you do not hear from me, it means i went back home and i am working. Also, it doesn't mean that because i do not answer every single person by their username that i didn't read people's comments (though sometime, i maybe too busy to read the whole thread or if i away from the internet. So. yes, i did read your comments, and i answered that i would post pictures in due time. While some people were complaining i was ill with a cold, and i did a 24 hour long stint non-stop to add more details and finish some of my 3D work without sleep (which means i was a zombie the next day and didn't post). Hi Bob, There is no problem at all, who ever said i had something against you. I don't know why you felt targeted, the bulldozer part had nothing to do with you, i have never known you prior to now, so i don't see how or why i would need to say anything offensive to you. When i said i have a bulldozer, i was not lying. I am sorry if you perceived it that way, it was not swagger: When i used to design kit products the old fashioned way it took me weeks and months. Now that i have 3D CAD software tools for the job it takes me only days or hours. I was telling the truth when i said i have a bulldozer: to me, these software ARE like a bulldozer. I can do the job 3 to 4 times or 10 times faster. To me, in my hands, that feels like a real bulldozer. I was already efficient and productive, cranking up kit after kit with only hand tools. Now that i master CAD it is like night and day. However i did not start working with 3D last month, i was already doing it in 2011, working at it on and off, when i had time, learning various software. It is only in 2012 that i really started working with it intensively, however, i had to put everything aside just a couple months after buying a commercial software due to a myriad of unrelated problems that arrived at the same time (including cancer). After everything was resolved, now i am back to 3D. As for the matter of image, i have to disagree with you. The matter of image for me is to post the best possible CAD parts renderings. In the past, i was posting photos of the various steps of my design until it was completed, what you would see was NOT the final part, it was just the tooling in progress, the molds did not existed yet until the project was completed. Here, for CAD design method this time, i go along the same line, i show a work in progress (albeit an almost complete work, while before i would show progress nearly from day one until completion). CAD renderings tend to show things in clearer manner than translucent printed parts, so people can see the details. Also, the parts are not for sale yet, no prices have been set or announced. Photos will come after whatever i have to do is completed. I never saw any negative comment from your part in your post, quite the contrary, i also know you are not a kit manufacturer. Hope that clears things up. Cheers. Stephane. "Ohhhh... you're using shapeways. Yeah, the parts won't be useable out of the box, then. Shapeways doesn't run their printers at high enough resolution to work for the kind of high detail and smooth finishes modellers expect from aftermarket detail parts. Not to mention the problems you'll have with matrix interaction between the resin and wax (there is no way to print a one-piece wheel on a Projet that wouldn't be a huge pain to clean up)." "But feel free to continue to ignore/insult anyone who dares to offer their advice. You do you, Stephane. I'mma go browse through the many bacon-themed tchotchkes for sale at Shapeways, since that's really their wheelhouse." :) Find my ANYTHING that is totally usable right out of the box in the world of scale modeling. Photo-etch ? (metal sprues and hours of cutting, bending and accidentally warping those parts until they more or less adopt the right shape). Injected Plastic ? (tons of plastic sprues and shaving parts from the left overs of plastic sprues, flash, sink marks, warped parts, part halves that don't match, using filler...) Resin parts with blocks or sheets of resin attached to them underneath or all along one side or on all sides ? (see above plus add plenty of sanding, cutting, filling air bubbles). (Note: I am one of the few manufacturers who saves you most of this until now by removing most of the pouring lugs, often sanding the part where the sanding lug was to make all traces disappear before shipping the parts, and designing parts in a way that there will be minimal work involved. And also most importantly pressure casting my parts and designing my molds very carefully). Perhaps the only exception are die cast metal parts that you sometimes see from some of the big companies like Hasegawa (and for which you pay a premium), but usually they had to do secondary operations to remove the metal sprues from the parts prior to putting them in the box, further increasing the price). It is like you are expecting that 3D printing will do miracles on ALL aspects that none of these techniques can do. 3D printing does not change the world (well, not totally anyway). What it does is allow designers to make parts that are so intricate that they would otherwise cost too much to produce with other methods, and allow to produce specialty products in small production runs at a competitive price versus going the expensive route of plastic injection. There are myriads of incredibly beautiful creations on Shapeways, things of marvelous imagination and cleverness, you chose the One that is the most tasteless of all to illustrate that company. That clearly shows you only have disdain for what is one of the fastest growing, most innovative companies to have seen the light of day in the past 5 years. You can print myriad of things with Shapeways, but seriously, Shapeways is a place that is full of highly talented, creative designers, architects, artists, mathematicians and programmers who make things that you cannot find anywhere else. I know a lot of scale modelers (and there are a lot already using Shapeways) who rave about the quality of their parts. And some of them are only using their "White Flexible" material which does have visible step lines... a material which is TWO or three STEPS below the level of quality my parts will have (Just to make it clear, i WON'T use White Flexible for my parts). These people were using that plastic because it is less expensive and because they were making fairly large parts. Some are thinking the most detailed material is "too expensive", but personally i find the more detailed material very nice as long as you make SMALL parts with high detail, that is :) As long as you stay small and you hollow out your parts it is competitive (I have seen handmade aftermarket parts for Mirage aircraft which cost MORE than the prices i will advertise for 3D printed parts, and these were for parts that are not even on the same level in terms of detail as what i will release). I am Very sorry you feel this way. There is one thing some people should do before thinking they have invented the wheel and are the only ones who know how it works (and i am not talking at you specifically but at those who think they know my job better than me). First, there are a lot of people who know out there. There are a lot of people with years of experiences out there. Not just in one field, but in many fields related to industrial manufacturing and tooling processes and rapid prototyping (for some who are new to rapid prototyping, and i do not single out anyone here, RP is not only 3D printers. It is a host of other methods and technologies. 8 or 9 years ago i was already making my first test injection molds with RP. If i didn't know about which RP system can do what and about 3D, i would never even be here. Someone mentioned polyjet here... i guess some people assume a lot of things. As if i had just discovered Polyjet yesterday. Ok, but seriously, did someone think for one second i was going to print parts with say, no radius on the leading edges of my parts and get onion paper thin and all ragged leading edge like some guy i saw who was new to 3D printing and had no idea what he was doing, or that i would for example print all my parts with the support material smack on top of all the detailed parts ? Not everyone is ignorant. Lets not assume someone knows nothing because he shows up with something new, and then say "you could accept our advice". What would be insulting for me would be to show up here and talk to my audience and not know about all the technical aspects of my work. Sorry guys, that's the only part here where i got slightly upset. I don't like it when someone just shows up, didn't take the time to check and see i that i have been making products since decades before telling me things that in all logic i am already supposed to know if i am using 3D technologies. I do not know how some people define professionalism, but in my book, being a pro is knowing your art. If you don't know your art, you are not a pro, simple as that. And if you were not a pro, you would not be making and selling complex scale model products since the past 20 years. If i had showed up here and said, " i don't know where to start, i want to do 3D (sounding kind of like a junior high school kid), what printing machine is cool and what machine can do this and that ?" I think in such case i would have needed some advice. Anyway ;) (and here adding the obligatory smilie, just to let some people know i am not mad). Hi Scotthldr, No problem, and thank you for your intervention, but i have no problem with Deino, he is free to talk. Frankly i think some people felt singled out when i said bulldozer, or did not understand that this is an ongoing project. No reason i would abandon anything i am designing because of a few comments. Trumpeteer and other companies don't cares what people say here. Two or three guys posted negative remarks, a couple of competitors showed up, that's nothing compared to what they eat each time they announce a new kit. If you read the number of views for my post you realize the comments do not even represent a fraction of 1% of the readership. I will tell them a secret i have learned over the years. In the past, all the people or the majority who post replies on forums are not the buyers. The buyers are the lurkers. Those who never post any comments but who follow-on with an actual order. It's maybe because this is the "first" time i choose to design mainstream subjects that some people think i am "new" to scale models design, because they had never bothered to look at my other kits before as they were "just space kits" and not necessarily in their favorite category. Edited April 9, 2015 by Stratospheremodels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stratospheremodels Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) There are some beautiful things that are made at Shapeways, you should have a look unlike someone who tried to giving perhaps the one bad example of a product printed there, no, it's not just "bacon". Here are some examples, including parts that should give an idea of what the level of details can be for parts such as aircraft models, armour, and other miniature reproductions.  Also, note that Shapeways won't necessarily be the only place where i will print parts. I mentioned them because they are the biggest one, thus they have the lowest prices. They are also driving the way others are doing things, already many companies have adopted the same method.  Stephane  Stratosphere Models  Email: stratospheremodels@yahoo.fr  Edited June 15, 2018 by Stratospheremodels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darius at home Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 To paraphrase Cuba Gooding Junior:- SHOW US THE BULLDOZER!!! Darius Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ohhhh... you're using shapeways. Yeah, the parts won't be useable out of the box, then. Shapeways doesn't run their printers at high enough resolution to work for the kind of high detail and smooth finishes modellers expect from aftermarket detail parts. Not to mention the problems you'll have with matrix interaction between the resin and wax (there is no way to print a one-piece wheel on a Projet that wouldn't be a huge pain to clean up). Sorry if I'm budging here too much Strato, but just wanted to address this comment. Yes, there are not PERFECT parts from Shapeways, BUT not "usable"? Here is a small wheel I've had printed in FUD with nothing but primer (admittedly not a great pic), no sanding. The primer adds more texture than the surface of the part in this case. Can it be better? Certainly. BUT I would hold this against many (not all) resin parts with pin holes and mold blocks to remove any day. As for him releasing 3D cad shots first, I think it's a good idea. I do it when I want constructive FEEDBACK on the accuracy of a part and/or want suggestions on making it better. But I guess you can't please everyone all the time. Carry on, Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChippyWho Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Wait, wait, WAIT! What happened to the BACON, again?! (_8(|)... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian 1 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I do this stuff for my real job and I also design kits and accesories for various manufacturers as a side job. Since we are talking wheels, which have alot of intricate detail, look at Fishers site, I did all of his wheel sets. Someone in this thread said you can't print a usable part directly from the printer, thats totally false. All of those parts, even the tiny logos went straight from the platen to the rubber mold. Now whether you have the capital to do that is another story because at 6 bucks a pop its gonna take along time to recoupe. Shapeways is ok for some very low detail stuff, but not these detail parts, they just aren't performing at where you need to be to sell a product. If you are planning to send these to them, you are wasting your time. Eduard is the first mainstream company to tackle this area on a grand scale. After talking to Vlad a few times at various shows, they are a force to be wary of as a small time producer. they have the engineers, machine access and casting setup to scare many cottage guys out of the business. As a design engineer I compare all of these threads dabling and speculating with using 3D and 3D printing to the advent of all of the computer music recording software...now everyone with a pc is a hip hop artist. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChippyWho Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Eduard is the first mainstream company to tackle this area on a grand scale. After talking to Vlad a few times at various shows, they are a force to be wary of as a small time producer. they have the engineers, machine access and casting setup to scare many cottage guys out of the business. I hope Mr Sulc knows about this! Quote: "Drawing upon the Holographic Principle, the premise behind the Fermilab project is that space is two dimensional, and that the third dimension is inextricably linked with time. If that's the case, our 3D world is merely an approximate illusion. Assuming that's true, the illusion is likely imperfect and blurry, just as photographs and videos are, especially when viewed on a granular level." (Maybe Shapeways are accurate to reality at the 'granular level' -or Vladimir could have gotten away with a decent camera...?) Edited February 15, 2015 by ChippyWho Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phantom726 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Too many words - not enough pictures! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChippyWho Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Too many words - not enough pictures! ...see?! :lol: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stratospheremodels Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Let me see, new product announcement, and several of the posters are competitors who are working with or are starting to work with CAD and 3D printing. Looks like i hit the nail right this one That confirms what i was thinking, it seems i have a habit of inadvertently scaring the competition. Well, like i said before, they will have to live with it. No matter how much they talk it does not change the facts and the pics you have seen from Shapeways (and even more devastating pictures are coming): individual modelers as well as model kit companies are already using Shapeways to print detailed parts for sale to modelers. Fact. If someone prefers "resin parts with block of resin attached to them anyday", (very nice wheel by the way), well, have fun with deformed dust bunnies that ooze uncured resin are warped and deformed during early demolding from silicone molds that were poorly made full of bubbles and resin parts full or beads of resin or hollows due to defective molds and molds that gets damaged VERY early on due to unrealistic level of details and undercuts that silicone molds are not designed to deal with unless you throw away each of your detail parts silicone mold after 4 or 5 castings and cast a new mold to replace them each time (add a pile of $$$ expenses here for the manufacturers both in time and platinum based silicone molds) by people who want to make quick cash at your expense. You know, one thing to consider when buyers are looking at photos of ultra-detailed resin parts that had their tooling made with high end 3D printers prior to making a silicone mold made from that tooling to cast the parts the old fashioned way: The photos you see in the magazine reviews and on website reviews where they send these samples as well as the pics you see on the websites of the manufacturers ARE NOT production parts that were made 100, or 1000 parts down the line. They are usually the very first, very best first castings made Before they start their main casting run, Before molds start to deteriorate and break down after a half dozen castings or so, even with the best silicon and the best mold making techniques (with this level of detail and also with undercuts that are even greater than the parts i am showing here in many cases). In comparison, like i said before, my 3D printed parts will remain the same from the 1st one to the 10,000th one, with no stretching or deformation during demolding, with no surface detail damage and without any of the defects named above that old fashioned, hand cast resin parts experience from time to time, inevitably, when companies want to produce larger volumes (like some of the companies alluded to above and many others out there who make parts for mainstream kits). Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of competent casters out there, but quality have a cost, and making "perfect" hand cast resin parts each time takes a lot of efforts, care and money. And no, you don't need engineers to make hand cast resin parts nor do you need high tech equipment. Engineers are for the injection molds (that Eduard makes, since someone alluded to Eduard, even though you did not say directly if you are working for them, but based on the wording of your post i would think you probably work do, so i will take them as an example, and only because you mentioned them). I know exactly what you are talking about. All their equipment is used for making molds and injecting plastic kits and for making photo-etch (hint: all of the above i have first hand experience with by the way, including injection molds manufacturing and injection molding). I will give you a story. A while ago, a certain company who makes industrial equipment wanted to sell me a robot that cost over 50.000$ (before transport and taxes), fills nearly half a small room and is designed for casting resin and silicone in an "automated manner" (which is a long stretch of the word automated). I know someone who have the exact same machine and who does work for the biggest names in the aerospace industry. I saw their machine, i already knew exactly its characteristics when i 1st say it, i know what they use it for (for the same special type of tooling i designed some years ago, and well as other more simple uses). Meanwhile, i was accomplishing the exact same thing these guys paid more than 50K for with a 600$ pressure pot and a high vacuum portable electric pump and a compressor, giving me exactly the same kind of molds as they spent a fortune to make. However i know the reason Why they bought their expensive toy: because of some ISO norms about "repeatability" and so-called quality control (the robot's got a little LCD screen on which you can input numbers, basically implying that their molds or parts made by that machine will be "the same" time after time... Well, let me just say this kind of sale arguments or requirements from the aerospace industry is just powder in the eyes. Why ? First, because each mold is a different story, with different undercuts, complexity and size, material, etc. They may put a little tube that goes into a bucket filled with pre-mixed resin and connect that to a rubber mold with a metal tube, and input, i want X cc of resin into that mold, that doesn't make their system anymore ISO certified than someone doing the same thing with thousands of dollars less in equipment. Actually the only advantage i can see to that machine is it can be used by someone who is less skilled. But in the end, all it does is make them spend a lot more. So i was hiding my laughter when i made my own molds and showed them the pictures (after having seen their machine during a prior visit). The robot's use, if anything is to be a great prop to impress clients who don't know too much about casting and tooling and think the companies using them are so serious and high tech. Ignorance is bliss... If these clients knew how much money they are throwing out the window... When i kept talking to these guys, including their senior technician, he kept saying that i "know a lot". Well... i would have felt ashamed showing up there and not knowing what i want and how to do it ! Simply because it's my job to know. I also seem to scare or irritate some people like heck with what i learned in the domain of casting, tooling, RP, etc. Once, the owner brought one of his business relations who makes high speed CNC cut molds (which i suspected he was selling at exorbitant prices). The guy boasted how he had made jobs for companies that had tried everyone else and their molds had been badly done by other companies and they were considered "desperate cases" and how he had saved their day by designing very complicated molds for them that got the job done. While i was there in company of both of them, i had some casting and some stand-in parts for the tooling i was looking to obtain (injection molds) (to give them a precise idea about the volume of my parts. Everything was disposed in front of him on the table the same way the parts would look as cavities on a single injection mold, minus the sprues, for which i told him: assume sprues of diameter so and so and width and length so and so, i also provided him with the volume of and weight of plastic for the whole product including sprues so he could just use that directly to save time). I asked for a rough quote from the mold maker. The guy kept asking me for my CAD files. That was several years before i started to work with CAD. No matter how i asked my question or asked him to look at the parts i had on the table in front of him, he was totally incapable to give me a rough quote to give me an idea of his prices. At one point the guy got agitated and started to get angry, to which my friend smiled and told his friend: "Calm down, breath by the nose", while he smiled in amusement at his reaction. After the mold maker had left without even giving me even a quick mental estimate based on the volume of my parts, he told me, don't worry, we'll do it by ourselves. I got out of this meeting (and of several similar encounters with most (but not all) mold makers and milling companies i have been in contact with thinking that, almost none of these people are able to work without their little built-in automatic software volume calculator for CAD files... The only people i met who can give me estimates for molds are some of the traditional mold makers. Anyone working with automated CNC systems seems to rely entirely on their software and have lost all skills related to estimations and mental calculations (and probably all their previous traditional milling skills as well). I find it's sad. No-one likes to have "bad surprises" and end up with a humongous bill at the end of a job just because a manufacturer is unwilling or unable to give a quote upfront (while ironically, i am calculating and giving quotes all the time for molds, yet these guys who charge hundreds of thousands of dollars per mold can't even do that...). Some of these guys if not most also prefer to keep their prices a secret because they know they will scare away their clients, and they usually tell them: "just give us your files, we will calculate everything", and you end up with an "engineering bill" in the thousands just to get a rough estimate, a trick they use to make more money (at least i have seen that kind of things here, some companies are very tricky). There are too many 'shops' like that here who function that way only to extract more money out of you. Of course companies like that never got any money from me, i only work with people who can give me an honest estimate upfront. Well, i already knew roughly how much these guys would charge, based on my experience, probably well over a quarter of a million dollars just for a small mold, and just because it is made here (and i was told prior to meeting him that they were expensive, so i already had an idea). Stephane. Edited April 13, 2015 by Stratospheremodels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fulcrum1 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 So what you're trying to say is you ain't got no juice with all that squeezing you've been doing....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stratospheremodels Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Another Super small model from SHAPEWAYS. Not from me but from another creator there. I have let some people talk, and now i show them the reality: Notice how minuscule that model is, the size of the tip of a finger... The guy's fingerprints are bigger than the finest printed details. All the fine texture on the solar panels is clearly visible, including on the painted model. All the extremely small details are also visible. The guys did a good job of photographing the model, which is not evident for a translucent model and one which is that small. This is WAAAAY smaller than the amount of details on my own parts. And there is NO way any of those surfaces could have been "post-processed", it would have destroyed all the extremely fine details you see here. Notice that the frames of the cockpit windows and the various paneling frames and wires on the model are smaller than the smallest rib details on my tires. What can i say... some people are crazier than me. (And i think some posters are now looking for paper bags to put over their head). This is also why i didn't even bother showing pictures of "test" parts, as this is the result i knew i was going to get since the start. "There is NO try", just DO, as the little green guy in Star Wars would say. Stereolithograpy is the way to go if you want to obtain the finest details, but not the only way as you can see here. Oh, and i just re-measured all my surface details, just one of my habits: a lot of them are at double the minimum tolerances for Shapeways for their highest resolution machines and material. So i could actually make them twice more fine and they'd still be good. Stephane. Edited March 8, 2015 by Stratospheremodels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stratospheremodels Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Another one, this one made its way to a museum after it was seen on Shapeways by a museum curator, to use as an example of what 3D printing can accomplish. Ok, here's something a lot more detailed from someone on Shapeways. This is a detail part for a Millenium Falcon: Now that's cruel... 1/1250th scale Slava Soviet missile cruiser. Ok, now that's really harsh: 1/200th scale TYPE89 twin anti-aircraft gun. As you can see from the 3D rendering, all the details are there on the models. Again, none of these people have anything to do with me, they are all good modelers who are selling their creations on Shapeways and i chose their pics for sharpness. Edited March 7, 2015 by Stratospheremodels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stratospheremodels Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) More: 1/160th Renault VAB. Berliet truck, same scale i believe. 1/160th Mehari Again, none of these people have anything to do with me, i just chose their pictures as examples of the fantastic results you can obtain when 3D printing small parts at Shapeways. Stephane. Stratosphere Models Email: stratospheremodels@yahoo.fr Website: http://www.picturetrail.com/stratospheremodels Edited March 7, 2015 by Stratospheremodels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I can't decide whether to laugh at the misguided hubris, or pity it.** I mean, I look at the pictures you're posting and feel bad that you refuse to listen to any of the (many) experienced voices trying to help you out. Then I read (read: skim) your little tantrums and realize it's delicious karmic justice that this is all going to go massively sideways. :) For the benefit of anyone else reading the thread who may be interested in 3D printing, a couple of words of advice: If you don't account for matrix interaction with your orientation/breakdown, you're going to have problems. If you don't use an established bureau, there's a good chance you're going to have problems. If you use Shapeways, you're not going to get the highest quality prints available (they run ProJet printers at 29um layer height; ProJets now print down to 16um layer heights, and they're still not the highest-res printers out there) If you DO use Shapeways, read about and understand their updated WSF pricing guidelines and arrange your models accordingly, even if you're using the more modeller-friendly FUD. It is *extremely* likely that Shapeways will revise their FUD pricing structure within the next year or two, bringing it in line with WSF; you might as well prepare ahead of time, so you don't have to revise and re-upload your models in the future (and lose print status) or face massive price hikes. **Then again, I'm not entirely sure that this isn't just trolling, since I've never actually seen anyone buy, review or build one of Stephane's kits in my many years in on-line modelling. Just endless boasting that the greatest thing modellers have ever seen is just around the corner. Endless squeezing, zero juice, so to speak. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stratospheremodels Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) And it must be noted that the very same person who was trolling here I found is printing parts at Shapeways for some of the mom and pop resin part companies he's sub-contracting for... Well, what can I say, must be the ones who scream the loudest who are being the least truthful. Â Â Well it actually amount to trolling what you are posting here. No one is forcing you to read this thread if you don't like it. As for your looking into the future, whatever Shapeways "might" do or not do in 1 or 2 years is irrelevant, and what is maybe important to you maybe unimportant and trivial to others, i think you could put the city of Paris inside a bottle, as the saying goes, with a lot of "if". Just a thought. Now i said before i do not need negative "advice", i believe i posted before i was aware of all technical issues. I said if you have very detailed close-up pictures of the actual aircrafts or pylons, that's what i am interested to hear about. As for "orientation", not only you have no idea of the orientation based on the renderings of the parts i post online, but you could continue to speculate till the end of time and you would still not know, because you are not the one who will orient them. Hope that answers your "worries". You should also do less "skipping", you would have seen that i mentionned that i will use several different providers, right on one of the very first paragraphs of my post on Page 1, so whatever material and printers one provider use maybe a different one at another provider, at my choice ;) . No point using only Walmart when you can also use all the other stores as well to distribute your products. Edited June 15, 2018 by Stratospheremodels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kenlilly106 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 **Then again, I'm not entirely sure that this isn't just trolling, since I've never actually seen anyone buy, review or build one of Stephane's kits in my many years in on-line modelling. I made the mistake of purchasing direct from Stephane the 1/48 X-31 kit several years ago. I think I've made a more detailed review in this forum before or maybe in the 'bad trader's' one. In short, run away as fast as possible, don't even think of buying it. Did I mention running away? I'm dead serious. Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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