What a day... the Vietnam War Summit

[Exhausted]

I don't mean to stir controversy, just share about an awesome experience with many key personalities from the Vietnam War.

Today I attended a special event in which I got to see several key players in the war, from the grunts to members of the presidents' cabinets. For about an hour, Henry Kissinger talked about his work trying to get peace talks started from the LBJ administration. He described his transition into the Nixon Administration and ended with lessons learned before taking audience questions. I learned he takes issue with calling the B-52 use in Cambodia "carpet bombing", of the friendship he had with McNamara and that he feels Vietnam was an issue several presidents deferred to the next guy. I respected him when he opened up the floor for questions and gave his sympathy to Vietnamese-Americans who confronted him after they spent 10+ years in communist prison camps. He called the evacuation of Saigon his saddest day. He acknowledged making mistakes and basically summed up everything by saying "I tried to do the best I could, and that’s all I can say".

I also got to see former Johnson and Nixon aids spar over what effects backdoor negotiations had on the war's outcome and Luci Baines Johnson (LBJ's daughter) read letters her Marine husband Pat Nugent sent her from Da Nang. What a day. Tomorrow and Thursday will have more speakers I hope to catch, including the Secretary of State, Medal of Honor recipients and Vietnamese ambassadors. For a "fan" of the Vietnam War, this was absolutely mind blowing. Not bad for a school day.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Exhausted

[Hajo L.]

Keep it coming, sounds like a really interesting event!

HAJO

[Alternative 4]

This sounds like a really interesting event.

I visited the Nixon Presidential Library last year and one of the most interesting parts was the section on the Vietnam war.

[toadwbg]

Very interesting stuff, keep it comming

[Don]

http://www.vietnamwarsummit.org/attend/sessions.html

Related, I have been doing a truckload of reading and video footage searching on helicopter operations in Vietnam and came across these two videos.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Home movie footage that I had never seen and insight from a 3 tour helicopter driver. Good stuff IMHO.

[Exhausted]

Keep it coming, sounds like a really interesting event!

HAJO

It's a fantastic opportunity, especially with so many of these key people in old age. I thought about our conversation during all of this :) . I audio recorded the Kissinger lecture, I just need to transfer it to share.

This sounds like a really interesting event.

I visited the Nixon Presidential Library last year and one of the most interesting parts was the section on the Vietnam war.

I would love to see the Nixon Library. I have visited the LBJ Library several times for different purposes, including some work through the archives. There are some interesting things to be found.

Very interesting stuff, keep it comming

Thanks for the interest, I'll share what happens today.

http://www.vietnamwarsummit.org/attend/sessions.html

Related, I have been doing a truckload of reading and video footage searching on helicopter operations in Vietnam and came across these two videos.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Home movie footage that I had never seen and insight from a 3 tour helicopter driver. Good stuff IMHO.

That's the event! There's a lot of personal footage coming out lately. I wish there could be a national drive focused on uncovering more footage for the public archives.

Cheers everyone!

Edited April 27, 2016 by Exhausted

[Exhausted]

I'm here. Looks like a live stream is happening right now:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/utaustin

Right now it's a session about the photographers:

David Hume Kennerly Pulitzer Prize-winning Photographer (and Gerald Ford's White House photographer)

Nick Ut Pulitzer Prize-winning Photographer

Moderator: Angela Evans Dean, LBJ School of Public Affairs, The University of Texas at Austin

David Hume Kennerly gave his opinion during April 1975, advised the president during his decision to let South Vietnam go. Different factions had different ideas, but Kennerly estimated SVN had 3-4 weeks left, they had 3.5 weeks left.

Nick Ut is known for the photo below. His story is that an A-37 came down and dropped napalm on a group of pagodas. He said he was focusing on a mother and her child, which died in her arms during the photography. He then saw the napalm girl with her arms spread out, with massive wounds. He transported her to a field hospital in his car, but the docs took her for dead and refused to treat her. He says he then showed his press pass and told the docs about his picture. The threat of them turning the patient away making the media coerced them to treat her. Their reason for refusing to help her was lack of medicine and high soldier casualties.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Exhausted

[ChesshireCat]

I'm here. Looks like a live stream is happening right now:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/utaustin

Right now it's a session about the photographers:

David Hume Kennerly Pulitzer Prize-winning Photographer

Nick Ut Pulitzer Prize-winning Photographer

Moderator: Angela Evans Dean, LBJ School of Public Affairs, The University of Texas at Austin

Nick Ut is known for this photo:

Sad thing about the Washington / Paris fiasco is that there was a war going while these guys played tic tac toe. If you were boots on the ground, you were engaged against the NVA, Local VC, The General Staff, the CIA. Then you get the incompetent mid level management. The LBJ Administration went to war without a clue how to go to war. Mid Level Officers were only there to get their ticket punched. Nixon campaigned on getting out with some honor. What a crock! Westy went home and the one of the most incompetent Generals in the theater took over. Things went south in a hurry! Yet the typical e-3 thru e-5 still carried a fifty pound load up and down the same old hill sides. How could the Allies have won in Europe with an idiot like Abrams. Plus he wasn't the only one.

It's no secret that Westy wanted to bomb north of the 17th Parallel like they did many years later. He also had a four pronged invasion planned as early as 1967. The basement said no, and also said it wouldn't work. We now know it would have been done in less than thirty days. So much for miss management. Henry left behind many POW's (315 in Laos alone). Virtually none with a rank of e-7 or below. Sad thing is that there were no Golden Boys running the show while some 19 year old was opened up wide deep and forever.

gary

[Exhausted]

I have great respect for your point of view. I seem to remember that you were there, but correct me if I'm wrong. I have some input regarding some of the common assumptions about LBJ, but I don't want to rub you the wrong way. If you're interested in what I've learned from studying the guy from a few different sides, then PM me. If not, then I understand. You were there and your reality is much different than anyone in my position.

[fulcrum1]

Nick Ut is known for the photo below. His story is that an A-37 came down and dropped napalm on a group of pagodas. He said he was focusing on a mother and her child, which died in her arms during the photography. He then saw the napalm girl with her arms spread out, with massive wounds. He transported her to a field hospital in his car, but the docs took her for dead and refused to treat her. He says he then showed his press pass and told the docs about his picture. The threat of them turning the patient away making the media coerced them to treat her. Their reason for refusing to help her was lack of medicine and high soldier casualties.

Your details are a bit off about the incident. Google the story, it's pretty fascinating.

[Exhausted]

Your details are a bit off about the incident. Google the story, it's pretty fascinating.

I've googled it in the past and I recognize the discrepancies. I'm repeating the story the actual photographer gave us today in person.

[Jinxter13]

I'm sure lots of things will be said that will be interesting to a lot of folks who attend, but having been there and hearing people who made decisions that affected me/us on a daily basis from thousands of miles away isn't going to change the way things turned out or could have and the way things really are. The restraints placed on this forum will not permit me to state my true opinions of how they performed their [duties]. I applaud those who allowed Stormin' Norman to do his job without constraints or restraints.

Edited April 28, 2016 by #1 Greywolf

[Exhausted]

I'm sure lots of things will be said that will interesting to a lot of folks who attend, but having been there and hearing people who made decisions that affected me/us on a daily basis from thousands of miles away isn't going to change the way things turned out or could have and the way things really are. The restraints placed on this forum will not permit me to state my true opinions of how they performed their [duties]. I applaud those who allowed Stormin' Norman to do his job without constraints or restraints.

I respect that. Many share your views, thanks for helping this thread to last. I'm merely trying to share my experience. Thank you for understanding.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Exhausted

[ChesshireCat]

I have great respect for your point of view. I seem to remember that you were there, but correct me if I'm wrong. I have some input regarding some of the common assumptions about LBJ, but I don't want to rub you the wrong way. If you're interested in what I've learned from studying the guy from a few different sides, then PM me. If not, then I understand. You were there and your reality is much different than anyone in my position.

I spent six days shy of 15 months from Pearl Harbor Day till the 2/26/69. I can truthfully say I witnessed the good bad and ugly. Still I don't want to bless you good people with blood & guts. So I'll stop there.

When LBJ was in power it literally was chaotic five to six days a week. He wouldn't let folks like Westy do their jobs. Still that's just part of the game of mortal combat I guess. Come election time, and your little body was out in the bush; you never got a choice on who to vote for. We never saw ballots even though we asked for them. Nixon campaigned for a peaceful withdrawal, and probably 75% would have voted for him given a ballot. If for no better reason than to stop the insanity! We elect Nixon (actually the folks at home), and get Abrams at roughly the sametime. First thing you noticed was we now play nice. Major OP's slowed to a trickle (we liked that part). The main interest was to avoid contact unless being shot at (does this ring a bell?) Now the war was to come to us instead us taking the war to Charlie's front room. WIA's and KIA's seemed to be down in this false lull. Come mid February the newbies met Doctor Tet. Yet had we conducted ourselves as we should have, we'd took the ball away from him. Abrams was a fool on a very good day. He hated Special OP's and anybody with jump wings. That's where all the really good intel came from! My base camp (last one)was a major demarcation point for special op's (LRRPS, SOG, SF, etc.). Was also the major assembly point for hatchet teams, Mike Force, and heavy teams for central I-Corps. Last hatchet team went thru there in September 68. Also last time I saw a Mike Force assemble. We still got data from the air guys, but you still have to boots in there to confirm and plan a strike. We put the NVA on R&R!! In February 69 all those chickens came to roost. Giap got to about 30 miles from cutting the country in half. Back to square one again. Same lifers getting their tickets punched, and the same kids bleeding to death.

gary

Edited April 28, 2016 by ChesshireCat

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Actually I saw an interview a number of years ago with the "napalm girl." She actually ended up defecting to the West as an adult!

[Scooby]

I've googled it in the past and I recognize the discrepancies. I'm repeating the story the actual photographer gave us today in person.

The girl lived, she is a Canadian citizen now.

http://www.people.com/article/nick-ut-napalm-girl-photo-kim-phuc

I thought Kissinger had passed away, you learn something new everyday.

[Exhausted]

edit: Please remember I am trying to share on this experience, not trying to be too opinionated here. I've tried to pear anything political out of it. Please try to be understanding if something snuck through. Lastly, I'm certainly not trying to diminish the actual Vietnam War experience of some of our board members.

The end of Wednesday was fascinating. I missed the conference with Dan Rather about new reporting during Vietnam, but I caught Nick Ut's and David Kennerly's talk on war photography. Nick Ut's personal account of taking the picture of the Napalm Girl is a couple of posts above. I am aware there are many different versions of events out there, but I copied his story the best I could -- and because I love you guys so much, I did it live so it was freshly typed as he spoke. Nick Ut talked about how he left the elderly members of his family behind in Saigon and talks weekly to the girl who's life he changed forever with his iconic photograph. Kennerly talked about being one of Gerald Ford's confidants during the weeks immediately preceding the Fall of Saigon. Both photographers agreed their job was to shoot whatever was happening in front of them, and leave the artistic part of photography to the others. They stressed that their job wasn't taking nice photos, it was about documentation.

Next, Ken Burns talked about his upcoming documentary on the Vietnam War. He's the guy that did respected docs on the Civil War, WWII, and Lincoln etc. We saw some really cool clips featuring some interviews with some interesting people, including a NVA colonel who set a trap for the US and had to deal with the wrath of American artillery and air power because of it.

Most people who aren't American that learn about the war probably don't understand how large the issue of recovering American POWs and finding bodies of MIAs has been for the American people.

John Kerry had an interview that focused so very little on his wartime experience (he mentioned support from Puff the Magic Dragon) and instead focused on his efforts to find MIAs and POWs, and improve the post-war situation for veterans. He said the Vietnam War generation stays in the shadow of the Greatest Generation, however the VN Gen fought every bit as courageous and deserves a high place in America's memory. He said the all volunteer army has some negative effects, particularly that the general public all-too-often ignores the sacrifice's of the military. When talking about how badly some members of his crew had it after the war, especially those who went through the hell of leaving a part of their body back in Asia, he broke down a cried for some time. It felt like a very long time -- something clearly struck a nerve. His best story was when he convinced the Communist Party to let him and McCain search under Ho Chi Minh's mausoleum-tomb-thingy to search for American POWs. Ha.

Tomorrow will be another fantastic round, featuring a panel with Ike Camacho, recipient of the Medal of Honor.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Exhausted

[Exhausted]

I spent six days shy of 15 months from Pearl Harbor Day till the 2/26/69. I can truthfully say I witnessed the good bad and ugly. Still I don't want to bless you good people with blood & guts. So I'll stop there.

When LBJ was in power it literally was chaotic five to six days a week. He wouldn't let folks like Westy do their jobs. Still that's just part of the game of mortal combat I guess. Come election time, and your little body was out in the bush; you never got a choice on who to vote for. We never saw ballots even though we asked for them. Nixon campaigned for a peaceful withdrawal, and probably 75% would have voted for him given a ballot. If for no better reason than to stop the insanity! We elect Nixon (actually the folks at home), and get Abrams at roughly the sametime. First thing you noticed was we now play nice. Major OP's slowed to a trickle (we liked that part). The main interest was to avoid contact unless being shot at (does this ring a bell?) Now the war was to come to us instead us taking the war to Charlie's front room. WIA's and KIA's seemed to be down in this false lull. Come mid February the newbies met Doctor Tet. Yet had we conducted ourselves as we should have, we'd took the ball away from him. Abrams was a fool on a very good day. He hated Special OP's and anybody with jump wings. That's where all the really good intel came from! My base camp (last one)was a major demarcation point for special op's (LRRPS, SOG, SF, etc.). Was also the major assembly point for hatchet teams, Mike Force, and heavy teams for central I-Corps. Last hatchet team went thru there in September 68. Also last time I saw a Mike Force assemble. We still got data from the air guys, but you still have to boots in there to confirm and plan a strike. We put the NVA on R&R!! In February 69 all those chickens came to roost. Giap got to about 30 miles from cutting the country in half. Back to square one again. Same lifers getting their tickets punched, and the same kids bleeding to death.

gary

Gary,

Thank you so very much for sharing this information. You are indeed right about Americans approving of Nixon. He always polled well, despite negative coverage. From reading your post, I get a feeling of a massive, senseless experience with intermittent "progress". Am I off base by making this connection? I would like to know more about why you prefer Westy over Abrams, but I think it would be best if we spoke about this privately.

Thanks again,

Oscar

Edited April 28, 2016 by Exhausted

[Exhausted]

The girl lived, she is a Canadian citizen now.

http://www.people.com/article/nick-ut-napalm-girl-photo-kim-phuc

I thought Kissinger had passed away, you learn something new everyday.

I guess I hadn't been clear enough since I was in such a hurry:

"He transported her to a field hospital in his car, but the docs took her for dead and refused to treat her. He says he then showed his press pass and told the docs about his picture. The threat of them turning the patient away making the media coerced them to treat her. "

I too was surprised about Kissinger being there/alive. He nearly ate dirt on his way to the seat.

[jpk]

Was there mention of in 1968 during the US presidential campaign the Paris peace talks were nearing an agreement and how the Nixon campaign people, behind the backs of the US government, convinced the South Vietnamese government to not accept the terms, that they would get a better deal if they waited until Nixon was elected. They knew if they could trumpet how the talks were failing and the LBJ admin was unable to bring the talks to conclusion, they would more than likely win the election. Essentially a treasonous act on the part of the Nixon campaign and it is well documented on tape recordings between the WH and the then republican leader in the Senate. And look how that turned out. Four more years of war and US soldiers dying needlessly for essentially nothing except for Nixon's power hungry ego.

[Exhausted]

Was there mention of in 1968 during the US presidential campaign the Paris peace talks were nearing an agreement and how the Nixon campaign people, behind the backs of the US government, convinced the South Vietnamese government to not accept the terms, that they would get a better deal if they waited until Nixon was elected. They knew if they could trumpet how the talks were failing and the LBJ admin was unable to bring the talks to conclusion, they would more than likely win the election. Essentially a treasonous act on the part of the Nixon campaign and it is well documented on tape recordings between the WH and the then republican leader in the Senate. And look how that turned out. Four more years of war and US soldiers dying needlessly for essentially nothing except for Nixon's power hungry ego.

In a professional dialog, yes they did. I mentioned it in my initial post, "I also got to see former Johnson and Nixon aids spar over what effects backdoor negotiations had on the war's outcome."

Tom Johnson (LBJ) and Alexander Butterfield (Nixon) argued over the effects of backdoor negotiations. Butterfield didn't deny the claim that backdoor negotiating derailed the peace process; instead he said it was important for Saigon to consider that whatever administration took over in 1969 would not be LBJ's, and it was always in their best interest to refuse any peace agreement (choice word here) while knowing the next president could change the result (think about the current executive action debates). It was a very smooth way of spinning Johnson's claims.... sounded right out of the times

Additionally, Kissinger mentioned a previously classified meeting (October 12, 1967 IIRC) where the US believed they had leverage to negotiate after a period when the VC took EXTREMELY high losses. This time Theiu was onboard but Hanoi wasn't because they had an ace up their sleeve. The Tet Offensive commenced 3 short months later. As a side note about Tet, I read recently that Tet unified divided camps in the North. The moderate pro-Soviet camp believed in a negotiated peace with the United States while the more aggressive pro-China camp wanted victory through military campaigns. The pro-China sect arrested key members of the moderate group and launched the Tet Offensive, not to achieve a short-term military victory, but instead to purge the influential moderates. They hoped to go a new course of military campaigns that eventually resulted in 4/75.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Exhausted

[Jay Chladek]

Fascinating stuff. Wish I could be there to hear it in person. I at least hope a lot of this stuff will be made available online for download. Thanks for the updates Ex!

[ChesshireCat]

I have great respect for your point of view. I seem to remember that you were there, but correct me if I'm wrong. I have some input regarding some of the common assumptions about LBJ, but I don't want to rub you the wrong way. If you're interested in what I've learned from studying the guy from a few different sides, then PM me. If not, then I understand. You were there and your reality is much different than anyone in my position.

-

I was simply a dumb assed kid planted dead center in I-Corp. It was the only home I knew, and from time to time miss it still. I actually supported LBJ and Nixon. But their staff was surely lackluster. Don't blame Westy for getting outta dodge while the going was fairly good. We'd all done the samething! I re-read my previous post, and must apologize to all of you. My POW statement came out 80% wrong (so much for my writing composition skills<g>). What I ment to say was that there were nearly zero POW's with a rank under e-7 returned. The 315 left behind in Laos is correct, and has been confirmed several times.

The large photo bothers me to this day. Still the napalm came off a South Vietnamese air strike. Was it from an A37? That I don't know, or don't want to remember.

War is horrible, yet most of us (here) take lightly. I don't! Once you experience it, your done with it. Yet you set down years later, and rolls thru you like an autobiography. You can now see the politics, good moves, and lackluster strategy. I could make a list that would scare you to death.

When you speak Vietnam, sooner than later another person says the word Tet Offensive (OK 2 words). There were at least three Tet Offensives, and maybe five. I know of three, and only the one in 1969 was a surprise. The three were a surprise to that 20 year old kid out in the Que Son Valley. Can't get your ticket punched without a war and a command situation in the bush. Welcome to "Catch 22!" I knew about the Tet Offensive in 1968 five weeks before the first shot. Yet I didn't understand what it meant. Mid level management and up did, but they were more interested in the USO show at the O Club. For me 69 was a complete surprise, but should have had some intel. Thank you Mr. Abrams for all that intel.

The furthest west I've ever been was five or six feet inside of Laos an Cambodia. Just sight seeing by the way. Of course we were accused of being three klicks inside of Laos by the other guys on one op. Maps said about a quarter klick inside SVN. Who knows and who cares. Just another example of some fine intel under LBJ's boys. When your out there you could care less about what Bob McNamara has to say. To be exact most have no idea who he is. Still tagging and bagging daily. Still our mothers watch every press conference on TV. I told my mother that I went to the beach in Chu Lai almost daily, and it was like being in Florida. My father knew differently, but we never discussed it. Still I seriously doubt that baboons in Washington lost any sleep over what went on in the Ashau Valley or out on the Hiep Duc Ridge Line.

In WWII the average line doggy spent between 90 to 120 days a year in front line combat (least they were smart enough to have a line). Korea was closer to two hundred days. Vietnam was a minimum of 240 days. I was in the bush about 360 days out of 436 days. Bus line didn't have many stops out by the Hiep Duc! When you went home you were beat up mentally. But when you cycled thru the rear the guys looked fresh, and were full of news we never knew about. I avoided them like the plague. Then I get home only to discover that that was the good part.

gary

[Exhausted]

I picked out a few things that stand out to me, if you don't mind.

1. What I ment to say was that there were nearly zero POW's with a rank under e-7 returned.

2. The large photo bothers me to this day. Still the napalm came off a South Vietnamese air strike. Was it from an A37?

3. When you speak Vietnam, sooner than later another person says the word Tet Offensive (OK 2 words).

4. Just sight seeing by the way. Of course we were accused of being three klicks inside of Laos by the other guys on one op. Maps said about a quarter klick inside SVN. Who knows and who cares. Just another example of some fine intel under LBJ's boys.

5. In WWII the average line doggy spent between 90 to 120 days a year in front line combat (least they were smart enough to have a line). Korea was closer to two hundred days. Vietnam was a minimum of 240 days. I was in the bush about 360 days out of 436 days.

gary

1. The ratio of officers who returned versus enlisted POWs is highly suggestive about the situation inside those damned walls.

2. I've known it was a Vietnamese airstrike that hit Phan Thi Kim Phuc, and Nick Ut, seen to the left, quoted that it was an A-37. He seems to know the relevant planes since he talked about people fleeing in F-5 Tigers.

Nick Ut on the Left, Phan Thi Kim Phuc on the Right

3. I have heard that more Tet attacks happened, but I've never known the scale of implications. I know, however, that the 1968 Tet Offensive convinced Hanoi to stand back for a while because of the vulnerability of their conventional forces to US superior ground and air power. What do you remember about how the 1969 Tet Offensive was carried out? VC/NVA/Mix? Multiple cities?

4. Regarding the maps, I read the USAF's Combat Skyspot review and one of the biggest reasons they said using radio beacons to bomb through the monsoon season was inaccurate maps sourced from WWII and the immediate post-war era. By using radar F-111s helped bring the circular error probable from up to 3,600 feet to 250 feet, though the Navy and Marine aviators had a CEP of just 50 feet by using A-6s beginning 2 years before the F-111 ever made it into theater. Also, I could see how people would be confused by the spacing of landmarks and their 'supposed' distance from borders.

5. There's no excuse for having people out in the field for so long. Deployment lengths seem re-dam-diculous. There is a huge lesson to be learned about this. I don't know where people ever got the idea that the troops are just robots you can cast out for years and expect them to perform just as well on day 400 as they did on day 30.

Thanks again for sharing.

[Gordon Shumway]

All I want to add here is a correction, TET was in 1968. It was what was the final straw that killed LBJ's run for a second term. Nixon winning in 68 was made much easier once Robert Kennedy was assassinated. Humphrey and McCarthy beat each other up to settle the Democratic nomination and George Wallace ran as a 3rd party independent. In the end this sealed the electoral vote for Nixon in the General election of 1968.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Gordon Shumway