Ben Brown Posted April 20 Author Share Posted April 20 (edited) Here are some screen grabs from YouTube of the oil tanks. For our modeling purposes, we can modify the kit Sparrows. The tanks had a rounded rear end and the aft fins seem to extend past the end of the tube. There's a filler tube sticking down just forward of the aft fin and a T-handle of some sort near the nose, just aft of where the curved part of the tank turns into a tube. The aft tanks were yellow, while the forward ones could have been yellow or blue. The inboard forward fins of the forward tanks were removed so they didn't cover the yellow arrow shape on the belly. <--- Forward A better shot of the aft end of the oil tank. The T-Birds' tanks didn't have fins and the bird shape was painted over them. Also note the wing leading edges are polished natural metal instead of the Blue Angels' Corogard. Ben Edited April 21 by Ben Brown Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BillS Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 http://thanlont.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-short-tragic-operation-of-f-4.html Tommy Thomasons piece on BA losses. This explains a/c variations as the teams “scrounged” replacements. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted April 20 Author Share Posted April 20 Thanks, @BillS! @PlasticWeapons was kind enough to provide a photo of a Monogram stabilator that appears to have the longer reinforcement patch and the second patch near the tip. This might give folks an idea of the general shape. Thanks, PW! Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 (edited) @Mike J. Idacavage recently posted some excellent photos of an ex-T-Bird 66-0294 over in the thread discussing the Fine Molds 1/72 F-4 kits. I hope I'm not overstepping by linking them here, too. Mike had some close-ups of the cartridge starter exhaust tubes on the belly. The cartridge start allowed the jets to be started without any ground equipment, like a Dash-60 "huffer" cart. A couple of screen caps by @ya-gabor showing the cartridge being installed... ...And fired. The F-4J didn't have cartridge starters, so they depended on huffer carts. As far as I've been able to learn, it looks like they placed a single cart between two jets, thus three carts per show. I don't know the designation for this particular cart, and it's smaller than the USN MA1A cart. It almost looks like a commercially purchased cart that's small enough to fit at least three in a C-130. Ben Edited April 29 by Ben Brown Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted April 29 Author Share Posted April 29 @ya-gabor also posted some screen caps showing the stabilator reinforcement as installed on the T-Birds jets. The second shot shows how the plate extends all the way forward to meet the bare titanium leading edge slot section, as discussed a few posts ago. One more from @Mike J. Idacavage showing a closeup of the faired-over gun muzzle. Mike also posted this excellent shot of the aft fuselage. The tube pointing aft is a fuel tank vent (somebody correct me if I'm wrong!) and the rod sticking out at an angle is for opening the drag chute door. If I remember correctly, there was a hole near the end of the rod and the crew chief would stick a screwdriver through it to act as a T-handle and then pull. This jet has probably had multiple stabilator replacements in its lifetime and now has the common version of the reinforcement plate that doesn't extend as far forward on the stab. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ST0RM Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 T-Bird F-4E #2 is just down the road in Athens, Tn. It's up on a pedestal, but I could get some pics of need be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted April 30 Author Share Posted April 30 18 hours ago, ST0RM said: T-Bird F-4E #2 is just down the road in Athens, Tn. It's up on a pedestal, but I could get some pics of need be. No need to make a special trip, but if you happen to pass by there, any detail shots you’d like to add to the thread would be great! Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) 18 hours ago, ST0RM said: T-Bird F-4E #2 is just down the road in Athens, Tn. It's up on a pedestal, but I could get some pics of need be. Any photos of surviving real Thunderbirds are worth gold to some of us! So please if you have a chance take some shots of it. A full perpendicular view from below on the nose / gun muzzle would be great to show its shape. Same for the tail so see if the stabilizers are still the originals as well as the heat shield. I still hope that at least one of the surviving aircraft still has the original panels with a possible patch to cover the exact place where the vent for the smoke generator was. But any underside details visible would / could be of great help to have a more complete picture of what the real Thunderbir Phantoms looked like! Liek reinforcements on wings, or those starter "pipes" . . . One never knows what turns up on one of those airframes which is already missing or covered up on others! Since the Thunderbirds did not have the radar and the gun there was no real need for those rows of cooling vents next to the nose gear door. They are visible on some underside photos but were they really there on all of them or blocked in some sort of way??? Thanks in advance for your time! Best regards Gabor Edited April 30 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mhvink Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 Castle Air Museum, in Atwater, CA, has a true T-bird F-4E. It has #5's markings, but I THINK it was actually #4. Saturday, May 18 is their annual "Open Cockpit Day", where you can get up close and personal with the jets. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 29 minutes ago, mhvink said: Castle Air Museum, in Atwater, CA, has a true T-bird F-4E. It has #5's markings, but I THINK it was actually #4. Saturday, May 18 is their annual "Open Cockpit Day", where you can get up close and personal with the jets. Mike Hi Mike, WWWOOOOOOWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Would love to take a look into the backoffice! But I am here in Europe so . . . : ( : ( : ( : ( It would be interesting to see what was left of the instrument panel for the back cockpit, especially the area between the legs where the radar scope was. Since the unit was not it the nose I would expect that either just the support frame was left there (like in QF-4E's) or completely removed. OK but what was left there? Anyone going to Castle Air Museum in May????????????????? Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mhvink Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 If I go, I will try to get some photos for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 7 minutes ago, mhvink said: If I go, I will try to get some photos for you. Hi Mhvink, Great!!!!!!!! Thanks in advance! I am sure it will interest not only me but other Phantom Phrekkkkks also! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 (edited) Purely a technical question from me. At St. Louise the airframes were converted for the Thunderbirds role. Gun, radar and lots more were removed of course but just as well many associated parts were modified. There were vents and scoops connected to them. Both left and right side had “grills” and of course the scoop on top of the nose. They are not visible on period illustrations of Thunderbird aircraft so they were “removed” in some sort of way. OK. but how? Did they just simple place and overlaying “patch” to cover them up/close them? Or was it a more sophisticated way of cutting appropriate size panels and “sinking” them in level with the surface. Little if at all is visible about this on period photos. But how about on surviving airframes??? Aircraft 66 0286 is a good example since it has an overall white finish which makes the panel lines more visible. The one photo I found looks like there is a “sunk” oval panel cut perfectly to shape and nicely blended on the right side of the nose. But there is only a picture of the right side of it. Here are some photos I took of a Turkish F-4E back in 2018. I took a monopod and attached the camera on it to make some overhead photos of the nose. Set a time release and counted 10 seconds to make the photo. It shows well the air scoop on top and the vent grill on the side. But what does the same area look like on the remaining Thunderbird Phantoms??? If there is a chance to go near one of those surviving airframes it would be nice to see a close up of these panels or what is left of them. Best regards Gabor Edited May 1 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted May 1 Author Share Posted May 1 That’s a good question. It looks like the panels in your photos were attached with screws so it wouldn’t have been any trouble to replace the vented panel with a solid one. I’m guessing the gun gas extraction door was probably wired shut. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 I can only hope that someone will take few close ups to answer these question about the panels. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BillS Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Ref. Ben’s images of the aft section. The longish drain was referred to as a “pencil” drain and as pointed out, the other item was for locking the drag chute door. There was a special tool inserted in the hole once a new “drag bag” was installed. The crew chief would place one hand in the smile shaped vent on the door, pull forward while simultaneously pulling down on the “t” handle until there was a characteristic “clunk” as the door latched. A streamer attached to the pilot chute via braided wire hung down until it was removed during walk around. There was also a small, yellow nylon ribbon, about 2” in length that stuck out so that the pilot would know a chute was installed. You can see both in the image below. Cart starts were partially employed to impress the crowd. Their use required the breech be cleaned after use due to the carbon residue. BTW, some if not all of the T-Birds jets ended up at Edwards and were undoubtedly used for safety chase and other missions. They never got slats and probably were at least partially stripped of their airshow systems and conceivably received class 2 mods for test work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BillS Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 More fo-ohs. Don’t know when cockpit pics were taken. Personnel parachute is removed in front cockpit image. Bunk 3080 w/o fish plate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 3 hours ago, BillS said: More fo-ohs. Don’t know when cockpit pics were taken. Personnel parachute is removed in front cockpit image. Bunk 3080 w/o fish plate. Hi BillS, That is a very nice find!!!!!!!!!!!! Have to say I been searching around and watching dozens of Phantom videos on YT but did not find this one. Always had the Thunderbirds word in my search, never tried to do a plain McDD Phantom II name. One always learns! : ) : ) Nice views of both cockpits from that Castle Air Museum bird. The only question is how many changes were made after it was retired from Thunderbirds and did its "afterlife" at Edwards. (apart from taking out bang seat parts for museum display) One of my questions is answered there, it did retain the frame for the radar unit in the centre, only had a new “box” in place of it. But one thing is for certain (for me anyway) these are the first clear views of both cockpits, of a Thunderbirds Phantom! Many thanks for sharing them!!! and finding them! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cajun21 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 At Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland OH at the entrance they have a F-4E and F-J on a stick. Obviously in T-Bird and BA markings, the E is painted as #1 and was in fact the #1 aircraft back in the day, The -J was also a retired BA bird. Cheers Itch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnEB Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) As a kid I saw the Thirds perform in the Phantom several times. Back then, the entire American fighter inventory seemed to consist of F-4s, I thought they'd be around forever. My brother was active duty then and had connections, and got me one of those autographed "With sincere appreciation" posters the team gave away (you'd see them hanging at restaurants and hotels they stayed at). I believe in the photo they are flying over Diamond Head, Hawaii. Still have it. I never realized the modifications were so extensive. They were hardly combat ready aircraft. Looks like they'd need to go to depot for getting back to stock configuration. Edited May 2 by JohnEB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Lots of pictures, including open cockpit shots, of the Castle Museum bird here: https://www.svsmgallery.com/Top-level/Walkarounds/Aircraft/Fighters-1945-Present/McDonnell-F-4-Phantom-II-Family/McDonnell-F-4E-31-MC-Phantom-II-Castle-AFB-Museum-by Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 Wow, thanks, @RichB63! Finally, a good look at the smoke probe mount (and here)! More good shots of the cartridge starter exhaust tubes, confirmation that the vents in the gun fairing ahead of the nose gear door and the vent on the rear nose gear door were not faired over. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Drifterdon Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Found a pretty cool old MDD video on Youtube of the rollout of TBird Phantoms. Aside from the cheesy music, it's pretty cool to watch. What I didn't realize is that slot (#4) had the black tail from the factory. This is a super thread. Lots of great info. I've built both Thunderbird and Blue Angel Phantoms in 1/48 years ago but this thread has me wanting to build new, up-to-date kits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 2 hours ago, RichB63 said: Lots of pictures, including open cockpit shots, of the Castle Museum bird here: https://www.svsmgallery.com/Top-level/Walkarounds/Aircraft/Fighters-1945-Present/McDonnell-F-4-Phantom-II-Family/McDonnell-F-4E-31-MC-Phantom-II-Castle-AFB-Museum-by Hi @RichB63, Well what can one say??? WOW again! THANKS! Those photos answer a lot of questions!!! It is good to see that at least on this aircraft the smoke generator vents base was left in its original state/shape!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Excellent!!!! It is interesting to see that at the time of these pictures were taken it had No. 6 while in post further up from mhvink it has number 5 painted on. Just interesting that they change a/c numbers on it (regularly)! But also an interesting thing visible is that one more temp probe was added on the left side as well as the usual right side position! Haven’t seen this before. Thanks for sharing it!!! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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