F-16 SUFA Sprue Shots Showdown, Kinetic versus Hasegawa, oh yEAH!!! lets roll.. Options

[Tomcat RIO]

LET THE SHOWDOWN BEGIN!

here's the awaited comparison of the OOB sufas.

-edit #2, the link to the in-progress thread
WIP build thread

-edit - i will try and remain as objective, and i am not a rivet counter nor accuracy freak so i will leave all judgement and opinion to others. i fear that this thread will become another bashing warzone.



first the main body frames - hase uses their classic 1 peice, while kinetic has the seperated top half for spawning more variants from single tool tail


the lower fuselage - hase is cleaner, has less rivets in the small panels. kin's plastic is a bit grainy, and also the rivets are larger than hase's. however, kin's has ALOT MORE panels and panel lines and rivets than hases, possibly due to more research.


fuse top - same as above, hase is smoother finish than kins. and kins has more panels and rivets.


one major source of debate for me is the accuracy of the elevator rivets. hase's rivets arrange in a triangle around the main axle, while kins is a trapezium. i have use a wash to highlight


both kits give static dispenser points. but kins gives the wick as well.


the nose! kins has a taller, sharper nose than hase. the tip of kins nose is also a double point, unlike the curvy one of hase.


seen from the side, it also appears that kins is marginally thicker than hase. by marginally i mean about 0.1-0.3mm.. almost negligible. but the key issue is how hase's has a convex slope from front to end, and kins is almost straight.


a comparison of the lower fuse, source of great argument.. this is the recorrected lower fuse of kin vs hase. i feel that both have the same levelled shape, but the angle that kin's entire lower fuselage projects from the intake is a tad too sharp. say, 5 deg compared to hases 3 deg incline. i will only know the overall shape after it is built.(might look different with paint on)


This post has been edited by Tomcat RIO: Apr 7 2009, 05:15 AM

[Tomcat RIO]

on to the intakes. hase's old intakes for the PW were used for this kit, and is hardly adequate. it does not provide markings and drilling points for the average modeller to attach the sufa's many exhausts and rwrs.
kin's, provides all this, and the attachment point for the litening stations. plus, kin has more rivets and panels.


the intake trunking differs greatly, kin gives the little buldge for the larger nose wheel, which is not accurate in shape, and is slightly too forward(about 2-3mm depending on how you measure). but this is better than hase who does not give.


the top wings of the 2 are also different primarily in the rivet vs panels.
both are riveted, but the panels of both are located at different positions relative to the leading edge. it will need a original mechanical blueprint to determine who is correct. (or the tamiya kit)


moving to landing gear bays, the forward ldg of kin's is far better detailed than hase, which is obviously the older and shows less research at that time.


kins' main landing gear bay far outshines hase's even without adding the other parts yet. although traditionally, we would have plugged hase's wheel well with an aftermarket set. thus, kin offers an oppurtunity for elbow grease at detailing, while hase allows you to drop fit an entire resin set.


the landing gear itself shows difference in detail. kins gives a suspension spring and single spoke axle. while hase gives landing light mounting point, and the disc type brake to attach. i've built a hase 16 before and the disc offers more area for glue to hold, but again, it will only be known when i build.


the PW exhaust nozzle shows another superior design by kin over the older hase. each seperate petal has detailed interior and exterior compared to the older hase. again this is due to the age of hase's mould and the limitations at the time when it was moulded decades ago.





the cockpit. hase's cockpit uses an additional sprue frame for the 2nd seater. this add on phenomenon creates probelms, especially when the center portion of the cockpit needs to be walled up. kin gives it in 1 piece, but the instruments themselves are seperate. some reviews have said that this (kin) will cause fitting probelms, but i will only know when it is being built.

[Tomcat RIO]

now, to what everyone really wants to see. the sufa related parts. boy this is a great difference between kin and hase!!

first the cfts. kin gives PE for the mesh, while hase moulds it to the cft. moreover, the position of the exhust mesh is different for both brands, again only after mounting the cft on the kit and comparing to real photos will we know which is more accurate-er


the shape of the cfts also differs. from the top view, hase is sharper and broader at both ends than kin.



and their panel lines also appear at different positions, and kin is slightly thinner than hase from the side view


the spine is also another piece that is greatly different. after placing the rear rwr ball at the same place, the 2 brands differ completely in panel line alignment and panel placement. again this is because each spine is catered to their owners airframe: whilst they look different now, when mounted on the f-16, it could be aligned to the panels on the fuse top, this i will only know when i build. also, kin's is very much thicker spine and squarer edge than hase. it will need original lockheed and IAI drawing to know who is correct in the angles.


the chin buldges are different. kin is smoother this time, hase give rivets and panels for the small triangle, and also a mysterious little blip on the front edge. i've not seen it before on rsaf sufas and most iaf sufas so this may be a new thing or unique to certain airframes.


one of the most difficult things is to capture the multiple angle of the chin bulge, and its flatness of the reciever side. here, hase excels by making the smooth transition from round front to flat back. but kin is rounder all the way, although you can see the effort trying to make the back, flat. kin left, hase right.


the aux exhaust port on either side of the fuse is different. hase's tapers to a 80deg end, while kin remains 90. actual pics show that there is a small angle, almost 80-85 it depends on the angle you are viewing. most of us will see it at ground level during maintenance. or upwards at airshows or a2a shots. and i will leave it as that.


weapons! (or the lack thereof) i dont have to mention the weapons set that came with kin against the 2 amraams and 2 aim-9ms of hase.


a comparison of the new lau-118( what is it actually?!) shows that hase's rivets are more refined than kin's. and some minor details that are up to the individual preference.

[Tomcat RIO]

hase's new war hud is a simple 2 piece add on. i dont have pics of the kin, will compare when it is built.


and now let me do a sneak peak at hase's future relases of the f-16. they are really milking it with this one sprue.


first, the AIFF bird slicer antennae array. this is the version found on MLU's and non-sufa spinebacks of singapore, oman. the other spineback of chile, greece, poland and uae uses the blended AIFF like the sufa.


2nd, the presence of the larger intake nav lights that house ecm. this are only found on spinebacked BARAKs, regular longtail spinebacks of oman, greece, poland, chile and the uae block 60s. in fact, i suspect that hase may make the whole block 50/52 family just based on the provision of this 2 sets of rwrs.


3rd, the 2 tail ecm famous on spineback and regular block 52 tails of chile, greece, poland... the possibilties are endless with this. single seater or 2 seater it makes no difference..


lastly, the confirmation of the UAE block 60, is the presence of the 4 front fuselage blips and the nose FLIR on this sprue.

[hr]
and certainly not least, the decals.

both brands give the same squadrons, but hase print is darker than kin.



and did i mention only kin has the weapons stencil decals.?


-kevin 'tomcat rio', heading off to build this 2. and remain as objective and unbiased as possible

This post has been edited by Tomcat RIO: Apr 4 2009, 03:05 AM

[gb_madcat_sl]

Can you compare the instrument panels?

Mark

[Tomcat RIO]

Can you compare the instrument panels?

Mark

hey Mark! , i will do so when i paint and assemble the cockpit. the panels will look better painted and the buttons all detailed out, making comparison easier.

[Raymond Chung]

Can you compare the instrument panels?

Mark

Here is the build-up photo:

[gb_madcat_sl]

hey Mark! , i will do so when i paint and assemble the cockpit. the panels will look better painted and the buttons all detailed out, making comparison easier.

Thanks! I have a feeling that the Kinetic one will blow the Hasegawa one right out of the water!

Mark

[Tomcat RIO]

@ raymond, i think mark meant the inside instruments.. but its a great kit, kinetic has an edge in terms of weapons provisions and more extensive tooled panels than the older hasegawa mould. but for some, they might prefer the softer and more refined hasegawa riveting and panel lines.. just a honest unbiased opinion really.

[stealthy1]

I agree with Tomcat RIO, the Kinetic kit really does give a little more detail for the eye. Accurate or not, still better than a blank panel. The nose issues can be corrected with a bit of reshaping or just take a Has nose and graft it.

[Jose]

Has the Kinetic F-16I arrived to any local hobby store in the USA?

José

[boom175]

I am sorry fella's the nose is still messed up on the kinetic -16 I really hoped that they would have done better. I hope they continue to produce kits but have a 3rd party check them, as I don't think they have access to the real mccoy.
I am going to do the Hasegawa kit mainly as I have some resin parts for it so I can dress it up. Even tho the Kinetic kit appears to have greater detail, I "persoanlly" think that it is a little on the heavy side. I like how Kinetic did the slick intake wedge, Butthe Hasegawa one should not be that hard to fix. BTW That is not a WAR HUD it is the aft seat HUD repeater. ISraeli jets don't use the WAR HUD.
I just wish Tamiya would do a family model.

This post has been edited by boom175: Apr 4 2009, 03:50 AM

[Raymond Chung]

@ raymond, i think mark meant the inside instruments.. but its a great kit, kinetic has an edge in terms of weapons provisions and more extensive tooled panels than the older hasegawa mould. but for some, they might prefer the softer and more refined hasegawa riveting and panel lines.. just a honest unbiased opinion really.

Yes, I understand. Concerning the panel lines, riveting. It is obvious Japanese tooling still 20-30+ advance in technology as well as quality. From what I learn from retailer point of view, we notice most of the Japanese vendor only release 3-5 new tooling product coming out each year. As compare to Chinese base brand such as Hobby Boss, Trumpeter, Dragon, the no. of new item release each month almost more than Japanese item a year.

I also check the panel line, surface.... from HobbyBoss and Trumpeter, the panel lines width, dimension as well as (and Kinetic) will have similar property. I think one of the major difference about the production chain in China different from Japan is : Japan manufacturer basically own and operate most of the tooling resources, so they can control whatever they want, also the machine tooling resources has got it return from old day huge model business, thus, the additing cost for new tooling on machinese expensive could be lesser than China base company. The only drawback for Japan production is the labour cost.

Looking at China base company, Trumpeter, HobbyBoss, Bronco themself is basically a tooling company as the background. So, you can see they release new tooled item every month. Of course, the quality may not enough for advance modeller. But they do fill the gap that Japanese company don't do - like whole series of 1/32 aircraft. Without Trumpeter, I don't see we can enjoy such selection in 1/32 model nowadays. (You can check Hasegawa does not release 1/32 item a long, Tamiya release the 1/32 F-16 in 2005) while you will see 1/32 F-14D, EF-2000, F/A-18/F this year.

As for the Kinetic, Dragon (I guess), (and Revell), they basically outsource the tooling to 3rd party to do the tooling, thus, the detail quality or work will totally depends on the tooling expensive. More detail -> more CNC time, EDM time -> more cost. In view of the cost and balance, they should draw to balance the outcome. In the end, this is a business.

Finally , customer drive the market, I think Kinetic is just trying to fill some gap on the market there with their limited resources/effort.

[Raymond Chung]

Has the Kinetic F-16I arrived to any local hobby store in the USA?

José

You should ask your LHS to push to the distributor in your country.

[B-1 Nut]

Thanks for this comparison.
Very, very useful.

I ordered the Hase kit, but really like the look of that Kinetic kit. Panel lines and stuff look a little "heavy", but I'll wait to see one with my own eyes before I cast my official judgment.
I might have to pick one of those up one day when/if all the AM goodies hit the shelves.

I've got all the stuff for the Hase kit already, so it made sense for me to get it.

I have to admit, that I'm kind of miffed that Hase didn't include the 600 gallon tanks from the F-2 kit with the Sufa.
It looks like they included the standard tanks.

I will definitely be picking up that sweet new weapons set that Raymond has posted pics of.




JED

[Tomcat RIO]

Yes, I understand. Concerning the panel lines, riveting. It is obvious Japanese tooling still 20-30+ advance in technology as well as quality. From what I learn from retailer point of view, we notice most of the Japanese vendor only release 3-5 new tooling product coming out each year. As compare to Chinese base brand such as Hobby Boss, Trumpeter, Dragon, the no. of new item release each month almost more than Japanese item a year.

I also check the panel line, surface.... from HobbyBoss and Trumpeter, the panel lines width, dimension as well as (and Kinetic) will have similar property. I think one of the major difference about the production chain in China different from Japan is : Japan manufacturer basically own and operate most of the tooling resources, so they can control whatever they want, also the machine tooling resources has got it return from old day huge model business, thus, the additing cost for new tooling on machinese expensive could be lesser than China base company. The only drawback for Japan production is the labour cost.

Looking at China base company, Trumpeter, HobbyBoss, Bronco themself is basically a tooling company as the background. So, you can see they release new tooled item every month. Of course, the quality may not enough for advance modeller. But they do fill the gap that Japanese company don't do - like whole series of 1/32 aircraft. Without Trumpeter, I don't see we can enjoy such selection in 1/32 model nowadays. (You can check Hasegawa does not release 1/32 item a long, Tamiya release the 1/32 F-16 in 2005) while you will see 1/32 F-14D, EF-2000, F/A-18/F this year.

As for the Kinetic, Dragon (I guess), (and Revell), they basically outsource the tooling to 3rd party to do the tooling, thus, the detail quality or work will totally depends on the tooling expensive. More detail -> more CNC time, EDM time -> more cost. In view of the cost and balance, they should draw to balance the outcome. In the end, this is a business.

Finally , customer drive the market, I think Kinetic is just trying to fill some gap on the market there with their limited resources/effort.

的确。Kinetic 与 小号手等，都比日本出产的快又多。虽然品质没比田宫来的准，但价钱却便宜多了。 so its really the customers who buys, or companies that see a gap in the market and able to plug it, that keeps the model kit hobby business alive. speaking of which, the trumpeter f-18E/F boxart has been released?

[Boman]

first, the AIFF bird slicer antennae array. this is the version found on MLU's and non-sufa spinebacks of singapore, oman. the other spineback of chile, greece, poland and uae uses the blended AIFF like the sufa.

I might have misunderstood you, but the "MLU" antennas of the Sufa, Singaporian, Polish (and others) are on the sprues, but you have not shown them. The picture shows the bird slicers as found on F-16C's from Singapore, Turkey and Taiwan. Not quite like on the ADF, but close - however not the right parts for he Sufa, which has the "MLU" bird slicers.

Looking forwards to more comparisons.....

Quick edit: Taiwan carries these on their A/B Block 20's - not -C's

This post has been edited by Boman: Apr 4 2009, 08:33 AM

[Tomcat RIO]

I might have misunderstood you, but the "MLU" antennas of the Sufa, Singaporian, Polish (and others) are on the sprues, but you have not shown them. The picture shows the bird slicers as found on F-16C's from Singapore, Turkey and Taiwan. Not quite like on the ADF, but close - however not the right parts for he Sufa, which has the "MLU" bird slicers.

Looking forwards to more comparisons.....

Quick edit: Taiwan carries these on their A/B Block 20's - not -C's

Ah yes, my mistake. these mount-on types are found on the ADFs and the blk 52 Cs, and some of the early A and Bs.. one has to refer to his referent pictures. the MLU is the seperated 4 piece.
but main point being, this piece and the IFF MLU style means that hasegawa allows some of pick and mix variants to build.. which is already the case of the kinetic kit..

[Raymond Chung]

Ah yes, my mistake. these mount-on types are found on the ADFs and the blk 52 Cs, and some of the early A and Bs.. one has to refer to his referent pictures. the MLU is the seperated 4 piece.
but main point being, this piece and the IFF MLU style means that hasegawa allows some of pick and mix variants to build.. which is already the case of the kinetic kit..

ROCAF Block 20 F-16A/B with AAQ-20 and AIM-7
here

[doctorpepper]

Ah yes, my mistake. these mount-on types are found on the ADFs and the blk 52 Cs, and some of the early A and Bs.. one has to refer to his referent pictures. the MLU is the seperated 4 piece.
but main point being, this piece and the IFF MLU style means that hasegawa allows some of pick and mix variants to build.. which is already the case of the kinetic kit..

so let's just make this clear - the hasegawa kit, the kinetic kits come with APX-109 AIFF antennas, and also the APX-113 antennas that the SUFA uses