Jolley Roger Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I might, however, build another Tamiya P-51D Mustang as a "restored" bird that will be super clean, because that IS accurate and it might be fun to go over to the "clean side" for a change of pace. Dare you to try foil on that P51 Chuck! Bet it will be a learning experience for all of us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Madhatter Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Hi Chuck Normally, I won't post in such a crowded thread because all of what I would say is usually already taken and anything I could say could be easily missed in amongst the rest of the posts, but now, I thought I would share my 2 cents worth - and you'll have change to boot :) Your build is fantastic as is mentioned many, many times over - and IMO its well deserved. I have taken a few leafs out of your book, especially in regards to your modelling thoughts - many of which mirror my own. I just lack the discipline to exact such a result - but that's neither here nor there. Without trying to sound like an a*se kisser, I do sincerely want to thank you for your advice and tips - especially on painting which I am profusely bad at really. Many of which I now employ and am now starting to yield much better results. So, again, thank you for taking the time to write up such posts and sharing your thoughts and ideas. Kind regards Simon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nimrod77 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Dare you to try foil on that P51 Chuck! Bet it will be a learning experience for all of us. +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
airea Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Chuck, I believe this topic should be pinned as a learning material for modellers at any skill level. I really like your way of explaining your tecniques in detail with clear photos. Your random experience sharing "articles" are great. For instance, I have first heard about using molten plastic or CA glue as putty in this thread, which helped a lot in my current build (by the way, the curing time for molten plastic is enormous, it takes ages to fully cure. Is there a way to speed it up?). Thanks for all. I really wait for a foiling work after your hog... salih Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Thank you guys for the very kind words. You’re making me blush! Now here’s some real modeling and pics to get back into this build. I finally finished the other wing- well, sort of. I still need to add the ailerons, but they are mostly finished as well and just need to be plugged into the wing. Remember this crappy sponson fit? Thanks to more liquid sprue and a lot of sanding, it looks a lot better now. Note the new horizontal panel line- and the “nose cone” panel line should be vertical. More Archer rivets were used to replace and add missing detail. Comparison of both wings. Before I try plugging these wings into the front fuselage, it’s time to seal up the cockpit so that it won’t get damaged and full of sanding dust. I also want to show off the pre-LASTE cockpit again- and maybe justify why the heck I put the wrong one inside the fuselage in the first place. Well, the Cutting Edge pit is gorgeous, that’s why! The seat even slides smoothly in and out, which has been removed until later along with the control stick. Like I said above, build for yourself! Masking cockpits and canopies can be very tricky, so I always spend extra time on this step to get everything as tight and sharp edged as possible. If you screw up this step and paint gets inside the windscreen, you are doomed! One very characteristic part of the A-10 has always been the Pave Penny pod that sticks out like a sore thumb on the starboard side of the cockpit. Well, the Pave Penny pod has been removed from the A-10C for some time and now even the pylon it attaches to has been deleted. Thanks to Jake Melampy, I have a couple of his new pics of what this looks like now, which will be out in the second version of the Modern Hog Guide (buy it if you can!). I can’t show the actual pics, but I can show what it looks like on my model. There are 4 fairly large “plugs” that still sit on the surface of the fuselage where the pylon used to attach to. Using spare PE brass bits from the spare parts bin, I attached something very similar with CA glue to the side to replicate fairly closely the real deal. The faded circular marks on either side of the plugs are where the kit part attaches to, which was filled in with liquid sprue and later sanded smooth. I sure wish I knew about liquid sprue when I attached the bottom nose gear to the fuselage several months ago. The fit of this part was horrible, so I had to fill the void with CA glue instead, which you can see along the bottom. There are 3 main problems with the wing to fuselage fit. First, there’s a big gap on the bottom on both wings, which is due to the top and bottom wing parts fitting poorly, with the top half sticking out over the bottom half. As a result, the top half is flush and you get this gap on the bottom…. If you carefully sand the top half of the wing to be flush with the bottom, the fit can be made fairly tight and the gap can easily be filled, as you can see in the pic below that is dry fitted. This pic also shows the second problem. The vertical strakes are too far forward and a bit too short, because the rear of the strake should fit slightly under the wing and touch it, not sit in front of it. What’s really weird is that Trumpeter got the strake shape fairly accurate, including the beveled edge of the rear. That bevel should fit against the wing itself. The third problem is that the inner wing slats are too far to the rear when fully extended, which is common when the jet is parked. The slats are also quite rough and have a raised panel line instead of a recessed one, so I sanded the panel line off and scribed a new one on the right, with the unaltered slat on the left. Another angle. That slat should be forward of the wing, not flush with it- and note the sanded upper wing to align with the bottom half for a tight wing to fuselage fit. Edited January 23, 2014 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) The fix is simple- just cut off the slat extensions and glue them back on, in this case in the very middle of the slat. Altered slat is at the rear with putty to fill the pin marks, with unaltered slat at the front. If you glue them in the very middle, the forward extension is about right. I have also left off the wing fence which sits on the outside of the slat to avoid damage. Getting back to the vertical strakes, I decided to cut a groove where they fit, about 4 mm to the rear of the current slot. This is a compromise between getting the strake under the wing and the strake not being too far rearward compared to the panel lines above it. Ideally, it should be a bit longer and actually touch the wing, but with the slats now hanging forward like they should, you likely won’t notice this error from above. I will fill the gaps ahead of the strakes when I glue them on, including that long slot-like panel gap above the strake, which shouldn’t be there at all. Another Trumpeter mystery! BTW, that blob on the front of the sponson is more LS to fill a sinkhole, which I will sand smooth after it dries for at least a week. Another angle. That slat now looks almost perfect for extension and deflection- and the interior of the sponson shows nicely as well. In this case the effort was worth all the work! Thanks guys. I still have tons of pylon work to do and the landing gear needs to be completed, which I've been waiting for Sierra Hotel resin wheels to show up. It looks like the Cutting Edge wheels will go instead, which actually aren't too bad.. Edited January 23, 2014 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
coneheadff Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) As much as I love the look of that beast...I'm glad I sold my Trumpy A-10. Great tutorial as usual. Thanks for sharing Chuck!!!! Edited January 23, 2014 by coneheadff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Check Six Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Have you considered the thought that the wing location might be a bit too high, Chuck? I think the wing sits a bit too high as per your pic below. The front hole (For the fuselage pylon) that sits right next to the wing root; The vertical distance between the wing and the bottom of the fuselage (Where said hole is) should be half it's current distance/length. Just food for thought. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Have you considered the thought that the wing location might be a bit too high, Chuck? I think the wing sits a bit too high as per your pic below. The front hole (For the fuselage pylon) that sits right next to the wing root; The vertical distance between the wing and the bottom of the fuselage (Where said hole is) should be half it's current distance/length. Just food for thought. Thanks for the input, but I've looked and looked at the pics above and I don't really know what you are trying to explain. I think the wing is about right for height, assuming "height" is the distance above the bottom of the fuselage. What is the "fuselage pylon"? Is it the # 5 station pylon? Also, do NOT use the panel lines above the wing for reference. They, like just about every other panel line on this kit, are wrong. A good example is that deep grooved line directly in front of the wing and above the strake. It is pure fantasy and I have no idea why it's there, so I will be filling it in and re-scribing better panel lines and adding new rivet detail when I glue the strake on and fill the forward gaps. Also, if you are suggesting that I move the wing for some reason, it just isn't going to happen. With all the weight of this model sitting on the landing gear in the wings, you need a lot of strength at the wing/fuselage join. The fuselage is reinforced on the inside where the wing tabs are inserted, providing a fairly solid assembly for gluing the plastic into a solid mass that won't move or crack later. I need to keep that rigidity- and this could be another case of "Good Enough" is good enough if the wing position is slightly wrong. Great pic, BTW, of the other side of the aircraft, showing the strake and how it touches the wing at the beveled corner. As mentioned above, the position I have chosen for the strake is a compromise of where it should align at the front vs. how close to the wing I dare move it back, before the front position now becomes a problem. The strake should be a bit longer, so I considered making a new one from scratch. With all the other panel line errors, it's kind of pointless, so the effort really isn't worth it since the model will never be perfect anyway. What matters (to me) is that the strake is tucked under the wing slightly, rather than sit in front of it. If you check other builds of this kit, it sticks out to me as a glaring error, so tucking it under the wing a bit is, again, "Good Enough". There's a very good reason that 90% of build pics of this kit are from 2 or more feet away! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brewer Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Chuck, I haven't chimed in much, but I'm still here following along with every amazing installment. Your craftsmanship is unrivaled! Keep up the great work :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GEH737 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Hi Chuck - incredibly awesome build. To my eye - the position of the slat looks a bit off. Here's a couple of pictures from my jet that show it pretty well. Unlike an airliner slat - on the 'Hog - it simply popped straight up to help direct airflow into the engine at high angles of attack (as another already mentioned). They didn't move forward at all. Hitch Edited January 23, 2014 by GEH737 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Hi Chuck - incredibly awesome build. To my eye - the position of the slat looks a bit off. Here's a couple of pictures from my jet that show it pretty well. Hitch Thanks Man, I'll give it another tweak. While I have your attention (or anybody else who might know), I could not find on the real deal all those panel line details on the top of the starboard side sponson "nose cone" that are on the kit, so I filled them in with CA glue. You can sort of see the remnants of the detail here under that black speck of crap: "Before" pic is here at the top: What are those things and do they exist on any A-10? More Trumpeter fantasy? Edited January 23, 2014 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
A-10 LOADER Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Chuck, this starboard sponson (sitting in the jet on your RH side) has no panel lines on it at all. This houses an antenna and is painted a gloss black when fresh. This build is really amazing and I'm enjoying following along. It's bringing back alot of great memories from my time on the A-10, I really miss her. Patiently waiting for the next update. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JesniF-16 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Very "clean" work as usual Chuck! I agree that the wing looks to be in the correct position, but it looks like the the lower fuselage angles upward just before it meets the "strake".... not much you can do about that. You've vastly improved the look by tucking the strake in under the wing root As for the starboard sponson, it looks like those "latches" are only present on the portside sponson. Looks like the starboard sponson is correct like Steve stated after 1991 it was painted black. The panel line that runs parallel on top of the sponson looks like it should be "removed" as I'm not seeing it from the reference pics. It also looks like the nose cone on the port-side sponson has a different shaped panel line where it opens up compared to the starboard sponson... Just a little detail I noticed. Edit: pg. 38 The Modern hog Guide Great work though, you're really making a lot of head-way on this baby! /Jesse Edited January 23, 2014 by JesniF-16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) coneheadff and brewer: Thanks for egging me on! I need a push every once in awhile to keep this build going. For instance, I have first heard about using molten plastic or CA glue as putty in this thread, which helped a lot in my current build (by the way, the curing time for molten plastic is enormous, it takes ages to fully cure. Is there a way to speed it up?). Thanks for all. I really wait for a foiling work after your hog... salih Hi Salih, The Liquid Sprue does take a long time to dry depending on how thick you make it and what glue and plastic you are using. My mixture using Tamiya cement and sprue from this very kit takes about a week to get pretty hard and it's rock hard in 2 weeks. I have also found that you WANT to let it dry for a long time, because it can warp and cave some of the plastic parts it touches after 1 week . As for foiling a model, I'm not likely to do so for a long time and maybe not ever. I think I can get almost the same high gloss results using plain old Alclad and a few tricks I learned on my Mustang build. Here's an example after weathering that looks pretty "foil-like" to me. Chuck, this starboard sponson (sitting in the jet on your RH side) has no panel lines on it at all. This houses an antenna and is painted a gloss black when fresh. This build is really amazing and I'm enjoying following along. It's bringing back alot of great memories from my time on the A-10, I really miss her. Patiently waiting for the next update. Steve Thanks Man. That's sort of what I thought. The panel line that runs parallel on top of the sponson looks like it should be "removed" as I'm not seeing it from the reference pics. It also looks like the nose cone on the port-side sponson has a different shaped panel line where it opens up compared to the starboard sponson... Just a little detail I noticed. /Jesse Hi Jesse! Yes, the front nose cone on each sponson is quite different, with the port side angled backward for the fuel door opening and the starboard side vertical, which I don't think opens. Trumpeter actually has the port side sponson door angled the wrong way! Good thing I have the Cutting Edge replacement which is nicely detailed within and angled the right way. The horizontal panel lines on each sponson presented some problems because they are not always present in pics- and the same thing can be said for the dorsal panel line on the top. They really do exist, however, so I suspect many of them are filled with caulking, etc. over time before being repainted. The kit sponsons should curve downwards at the front more, so the horizontal panel lines now hit the nose cone in the middle, rather than in the upper half like they should. There's a good pic of this panel line here, albeit subtle. Horizontal Panel Line on Sponson The dorsal panel line can be found on the same jet in this pic, which has another great shot of the inner wing slats: Dorsal Sponson Panel Line This brings up something I've been thinking about for a long time. What do we modelers do when we know the panel line is there, but it is subtle and almost gone? The kit panel lines are fairly big, so unless you fill them and re-scribe them, they will always stay big and unrealistic looking when filled with a dark weathering wash later. Extra thin panel lines also present a problem, because they tend to come and go- especially with washes within them, so the panel line looks "inconsistent". This, I found out the hard way, is a model contest deduction, but before I get trashed for not building for myself, I actually agree with the thinking. Ironically, real aircraft panel lines do come and go sometimes with filler inconsistencies, but it is not the norm, which is what we're trying to replicate. A possible solution- and another "New Thing"- I'm going to try is the new Tamiya Panel Line Accent Colors here: Tamiya Panel Line Accent Colors Rather than just put a general dark wash over all the rivets and panel lines that will pick out the sponson panel lines, I can selectively "paint" every single panel line I want to see pop and avoid the ones I don't want to jump out at me. This will be followed by pre-shading of certain panel line areas that are usually extra dirty, to get away from a perfectly gridded looking model, which will not look realistic. The sponson panel lines will get none of it, so your eye will not notice the panel lines as easily- just like the real deal. I'd like to do this on bare plastic, but the Tamiya instructions suggest you don't, but they also claim the stuff is made from enamel so I can't see why not. If I can't, I'll do it over the Future coat after decals. This to me is the most fun in modeling, as I get "artsy" with the final finish of paint and weathering to get the model looking as close to the real deal as possible. Edited January 23, 2014 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GEH737 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) I believe that Trumpeter just replicated the fueling door latches on the top of both sponsons - even though they shouldn't be there on the starboard side. Here's another picture showing the open fueling door angle, grounding wire, and canvas bag inside the fueling door which would hold pins. ...and another picture (that I tweaked in Photoshop) to show the starboard sponson a little better in profile. Hitch Edited January 24, 2014 by GEH737 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Check Six Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Thanks for the input, but I've looked and looked at the pics above and I don't really know what you are trying to explain. I think the wing is about right for height, assuming "height" is the distance above the bottom of the fuselage. What is the "fuselage pylon"? Is it the # 5 station pylon? Also, do NOT use the panel lines above the wing for reference. They, like just about every other panel line on this kit, are wrong. A good example is that deep grooved line directly in front of the wing and above the strake. It is pure fantasy and I have no idea why it's there, so I will be filling it in and re-scribing better panel lines and adding new rivet detail when I glue the strake on and fill the forward gaps. Also, if you are suggesting that I move the wing for some reason, it just isn't going to happen. With all the weight of this model sitting on the landing gear in the wings, you need a lot of strength at the wing/fuselage join. The fuselage is reinforced on the inside where the wing tabs are inserted, providing a fairly solid assembly for gluing the plastic into a solid mass that won't move or crack later. I need to keep that rigidity- and this could be another case of "Good Enough" is good enough if the wing position is slightly wrong. Great pic, BTW, of the other side of the aircraft, showing the strake and how it touches the wing at the beveled corner. As mentioned above, the position I have chosen for the strake is a compromise of where it should align at the front vs. how close to the wing I dare move it back, before the front position now becomes a problem. The strake should be a bit longer, so I considered making a new one from scratch. With all the other panel line errors, it's kind of pointless, so the effort really isn't worth it since the model will never be perfect anyway. What matters (to me) is that the strake is tucked under the wing slightly, rather than sit in front of it. If you check other builds of this kit, it sticks out to me as a glaring error, so tucking it under the wing a bit is, again, "Good Enough". There's a very good reason that 90% of build pics of this kit are from 2 or more feet away! On the bottom of the fuselage there are three hardpoints with the CL pylon being one of them. In your pic below I was referring to the starboard fuselage hardpoint/pylon forward hole. But my recommendation is irreverent now because of the good points you brought up regarding the model's weight and structural integrity involved. What I will take/note from this discussion is that if I get this kit in the future; before I start gluing anything I'll examine how the wings join the fuselage, add in your points made, and see if I can lower said wings while not compromising anything and maybe even improve/reenforce that area. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Hey Guys, no big modeling update, but I DO have a neat discovery I just made over the past 24 hours that you fellow nerds might be interested in! If this is "old news", I guess I'll be a bit disappointed, but I've never heard of it before. Last night I was going to use some CA glue, but I couldn't find anything to place it on. Normally I place a few drops of it on something flat like a small piece of cardboard, etc., then use a thin microbrush handle or full microbrush to apply the glue. Since I was using the super thin stuff, I decided to use an old spray pump cap (see below) as a container so that it wouldn't spread out all over the place. My experience with CA glue on a flat surface is that the thin glue will evaporate and become hard within 1/2 hour or so and the thicker glue takes about an hour. This gives me plenty of time to do whatever I need to glue, but I do waste a lot of glue due to hardening over the course of a build. After putting the glue into the uncovered container, I noticed that it was still quite liquid after 2 hours, which I've never seen before. When it was still the same way after 4 hours, I knew something interesting was happening, but this morning- after 12 hours, it was STILL very thin and usable. Wow! What the heck? The glue was totally exposed to the air the whole time. I've had some time to think about it and here's my theory. Please don't laugh if I'm totally out to lunch! :P My guess is that the glue fumes are heavier than air, so when the glue evaporates, the fumes collect in the bottom of the container, partially "sealing" the glue from further evaporation, much like a wet towel won't dry in humid air. I don't know if I'm right or not, but I do know one thing: I will be placing CA glue in this or a similar container from now on. Yes, I know, CA glue is cheap anyway, but I find having to replenish the supply of glue all the time and not knowing what the viscosity will be when I use it is a real pain. A few drops in this little container is good enough for an entire evening without the need for any more glue- and maybe even the next day! Model On! Edited January 25, 2014 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
warthoglvr Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Nice "stumbled upon" discovery, Chuck. I had never experienced that before, but it's good a good trick to add to the toolbox! Thanks for sharing! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nimrod77 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Not sure what's going on there Chuck, CA glue hardens by pulling moisture out of the air. Maybe the fumes are displacing the moisture? No idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Not sure what's going on there Chuck, CA glue hardens by pulling moisture out of the air. Maybe the fumes are displacing the moisture? No idea. Me either. According to this link, lack of moisture and some plastics retard the curing. Maybe it's the darn plastic cap? Cyanoacrylate Glue BTW, On Night #2, I have perfectly thin CA glue again after 5 hours- and counting. I'm going to start pouring the glue back into the bottle after I'm done! BTW, Here's another tip that I'm sure is well known, but I'll throw it out there anyway for those less experienced with CA glue. Never buy Medium or Thick CA glue, because sooner or later, Thin glue will become those viscosities over time. I always rotate a bottle or two of Thin glue every 6 months or so, which now becomes Medium. When the Medium becomes too thick, I add some more newer Thin to the bottle and give it a shake. I've read many times how you should put your CA glue in the fridge and even a freezer to preserve it, but by rotating the various ages of Thin CA glue, I run out of the stuff before I need to worry about preserving it. Edited January 25, 2014 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marcel111 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Chuck, those sponsons are just beautiful, must be some of your best work yet Marcel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Hi Chuck , great to see such progress. Just to confirm two things; the strake is slightly raised from the fuselage side-not flush with it. And you likely already are placing it as such, but when extended, the LE slat has the same gap at the rear as it has at the front. Also note the slat activating tab is a small Nat. Metal square (heated like the Pitot) just outboard of the LH Main gear sponson (one of the contributed photos prior page shows it). If the SH wheels don't show up in time and you use the CE, the center cap needs to protrude more and it has too sharp an edge. And yes, true on both CA glue uses. I use the small sport bottle caps, and my thickest CA is like 5 yrs. old. Adding that I have 3M #8 CA that dilutes hard black plastic shavings which makes a great strong filler. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sven Harjacek Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 What a great topic Chuck, I just read it from the start and must say it's totally amazing. Actually, your Tamiya F-4 blog some time ago made me buy my first 1/32 kit. I will sure be enjoying this topic to the end as I might find out some good tips like the one regarding CA. Kind regards, Sven. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Hi Chuck , great to see such progress. Just to confirm two things; the strake is slightly raised from the fuselage side-not flush with it. And you likely already are placing it as such, but when extended, the LE slat has the same gap at the rear as it has at the front. Also note the slat activating tab is a small Nat. Metal square (heated like the Pitot) just outboard of the LH Main gear sponson (one of the contributed photos prior page shows it). If the SH wheels don't show up in time and you use the CE, the center cap needs to protrude more and it has too sharp an edge. Thanks Erik! I knew about the first item but not the last two. You saved me from a lot of frustration later when these things would eventually be known. What a great topic Chuck, I just read it from the start and must say it's totally amazing. Actually, your Tamiya F-4 blog some time ago made me buy my first 1/32 kit. I will sure be enjoying this topic to the end as I might find out some good tips like the one regarding CA. Kind regards, Sven. Welcome aboard Sven! As you see from the above, I'm still learning something new every day myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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