Brian P: Fightertown Decals Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 (edited) So there is no kit now and a load ton of drama?... Timeline in a nutshell? - AA develops an SU-33. Burns people in the process, all kinds of suggestions of shady dealings. Sells kit to Kinetic, who releases the kit. Then decides to make their own V.2 kit, bashing Kinetic for the very kit they sold them. (Forget any legal or moral reason signing over of rights to Kinetic) More drama from AA ensues, but promises greatest model kit of all time. Then disappears and through a proxy talks about how great the people behind the kit are and it is definitely coming. And then an unofficial posting about how thru greedy business and bad deals, and how the Hobby is just a bunch of soulless money grabbing companies that don't believe in the generous and free spirit charity that modeling should or used to be, the kit isn't coming afterall. Yeah.... I want my 20 minutes back.... The Kinetic (AA v1.0) is really a great kit. Any shortcomings in the shape, design, sprues, detail are purely the designers, aka AA. The sink marks in the molding were unfortunate and have been fixed by Kinetic. Ill continue to happily support Kinetic and can't wait to build my copy of this kit, and maybe a few more of them down the road. Edited September 17, 2018 by Brian P: Fightertown Decals Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DIO Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 27 minutes ago, Brian P: Fightertown Decals said: So there is no kit now and a load ton of drama?... Timeline in a nutshell? - AA develops an SU-33. Burns people in the process, all kinds of suggestions of shady dealings. Sells kit to Kinetic, who releases the kit. Then decides to make their own V.2 kit, bashing Kinetic for the very kit they sold them. (Forget any legal or moral reason signing over of rights to Kinetic) More drama from AA ensues, but promises greatest model kit of all time. Then disappears and through a proxy talks about how great the people behind the kit are and it is definitely coming. And then an unofficial posting about how thru greedy business and bad deals, and how the Hobby is just a bunch of soulless money grabbing companies that don't believe in the generous and free spirit charity that modeling should or used to be, the kit isn't coming afterall. Yeah.... I want my 20 minutes back.... 👍👍👍 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
delide Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 On 9/17/2018 at 9:51 PM, Laurent said: Scale modeling business isn't a high profitability business. Once the retailer, the distributor and the subcontractors have taken their margin, not that much is left for the producer. Few companies can afford to have a research department and few can afford to send a pair of employees from China to some part of the world to collect material to work on a project. Or even pay some local consultants. It would eat a good chunk of the whole project's budget. That's why producers rely on subject enthusiasts I think. It's not that bad a business for the producer either, for the Chinese producers at least. The average salaries in China is still low, around 800~900 USD per month, also for 1 USD sale they get almost 7 RMB. Surely the distributor and subcontractors will get the share for their work, but just look at the price of MIg-25 kits for example, ICM costs only about the half of KH's, then you should know that that is not because of the distributor and subcontractors! The Tamiya F-14 kits are not much more expensive, however in Japan the cost is much higher. The only reason that some Chinese kits have comparable high price, is because their producer knows that we are ready and willing to pay that similar price. Certainly it would nice to have access to the real thing for research, but how we do our own research in order to have a more accurate model? I'd say a few hours of surfing around the internet can already help a lot, by comparing photos with to what it is in the kit, we could see what can be corrected and what details can be added. I think, in the same way, just spend a few hours extra, the producer can improve their 3D models too, or at least stupid mistakes can be avoided, without taking a hit in the budget. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
delide Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 Sorry to hear the story from Nino, hope you will be able to rekindle with the Kinetic kits, it may not be perfect, but it is really too good a kit to be discarded. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 4 hours ago, delide said: The only reason that some Chinese kits have comparable high price, is because their producer knows that we are ready and willing to pay that similar price. "We" includes Chinese modellers. A KH MiG-25PD/PDS on Taobao is 52USD. Not quite cheap. It's true that retail price depends on demand but on other factors also (intent to undermine an exisiting Chinese competitor product, etc). I'd say a few hours of surfing around the internet can already help a lot, by comparing photos with to what it is in the kit, we could see what can be corrected and what details can be added. I think, in the same way, just spend a few hours extra, the producer can improve their 3D models too, or at least stupid mistakes can be avoided, without taking a hit in the budget. Yes but apparently accuracy isn't always a requirement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
delide Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Laurent said: "We" includes Chinese modellers. A KH MiG-25PD/PDS on Taobao is 52USD. Not quite cheap. It's true that retail price depends on demand but on other factors also (intent to undermine an exisiting Chinese competitor product, etc). Yes but apparently accuracy isn't always a requirement. No, you don’t understand the situation, sure, their kits are very expensive in China, not because Chinese modeler are perfectly ready to pay for it, but because they are trying to maintain the same price level internationally, this way no one in China can sell their kits cheaply internationally and therefore spoil their prices oversea. Particularly KH, they don’t care about the Chinese market, their money lies in the oversea, that were basically their own words a couple of years ago, except of course it’s Chinese, on a Chinese forum. Chinese modellers hate KH much more than you know. BTW, KH were dumping their old stock of F-35 kits in China for 9,99 RMB(a litte more than 1 USD), for ordering their Su-35 kit, and that has become a running gag among Chinese modelers, something like "I’d buy that for a dollar" for every new KH anouncements. It's been seen as a slap in their own face, as KH were try to convince the forumers, that their kits are that expensive because of their high expense, just as you seem to believe. Accuracy perhaps isn't always a requirement, for selling many kits and making a lot of money. Also the least amount of research/effort you can get away with, the better the business obviously. Edited September 19, 2018 by delide spell check failed to work Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nino_Belov Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 (edited) . Edited August 13, 2020 by Nino_Belov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Doppelgänger Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 (edited) On 9/17/2018 at 5:54 PM, Brian P: Fightertown Decals said: So there is no kit now and a load ton of drama?... Timeline in a nutshell? - AA develops an SU-33. Burns people in the process, all kinds of suggestions of shady dealings. Sells kit to Kinetic, who releases the kit. Then decides to make their own V.2 kit, bashing Kinetic for the very kit they sold them. (Forget any legal or moral reason signing over of rights to Kinetic) More drama from AA ensues, but promises greatest model kit of all time. Then disappears and through a proxy talks about how great the people behind the kit are and it is definitely coming. And then an unofficial posting about how thru greedy business and bad deals, and how the Hobby is just a bunch of soulless money grabbing companies that don't believe in the generous and free spirit charity that modeling should or used to be, the kit isn't coming afterall. Brian, I respect your point of view. Remember a couple (or more?) years back, when AMK announced their 1/48 F-14D kit. Even last year, there were a lot of people here stating that the kit was never to be released. The same happened when Martin announced their new-tool SuE and MiG-25PD kits in that scale, remember? I really hope for us that the new Aviation Art 1/48 Su-33 V2.0 kit is indeed released, but it's sort of a matter of faith. You can clearly see now that the AMK Tomcat is finally starting to show - how many months have passed since the kit was first announced? How much was said about it? The only thing I take for sure regarding this new project is that there is this member whom I trust, whose reputation is not on the line for this, but at least he states that the errors on the Kinetic kit were already fixed on the new one, and he is not putting down the new version 2.0 I guess we will need to wait and see; and after all, it's in our own benefit that the new kit sees the light. I've had the Kinetic kit and sold it the minute I learnt this new V2.0 was in the making. 14 hours ago, Nino_Belov said: I am modeler, not toy maker... I like 100 times more to build Monogram F-105 than Hobby Boss... Same here. Only thing that you need to fix on the Monogram Thud is the forward fuselage; DMold's your friend in that aspect. Such an awesome kit that is. Cheers, Onigiri Edited September 20, 2018 by Doppelgänger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raymond Chung Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Doppelgänger said: Brian, I respect your point of view. Remember a couple (or more?) years back, when AMK announced their 1/48 F-14D kit. Even last year, there were a lot of people here stating that the kit was never to be released. The same happened when Martin announced their new-tool SuE and MiG-25PD kits in that scale, remember? I really hope for us that the new Aviation Art 1/48 Su-33 V2.0 kit is indeed released, but it's sort of a matter of faith. You can clearly see now that the AMK Tomcat is finally starting to show - how many months have passed since the kit was first announced? How much was said about it? The only thing I take for sure regarding this new project is that there is this member whom I trust, whose reputation is not on the line for this, but at least he states that the errors on the Kinetic kit were already fixed on the new one, and he is not putting down the new version 2.0 I guess we will need to wait and see; and after all, it's in our own benefit that the new kit sees the light. I've had the Kinetic kit and sold it the minute I learnt this new V2.0 was in the making. Same here. Only thing that you need to fix on the Monogram Thud is the forward fuselage; DMold's your friend in that aspect. Such an awesome kit that is. Cheers, Onigiri Dear Onigirl, I want to take this chance to express a feeling in the latest trend in modelling maker competition. With more choice in the market it is good for consumer for more chance to selection. And competition leads to progress and improvements. However like AFV market 8-10 years ago, every market pre announce the subject that consumer interests and consumer never knows whether the item will be released or when it will be released. Like your case when you heard the Su-33 v2.0 you immediately sold the 1.0 kit and wait for 2.0. This is the right for consumer to get better option. Thr pre annoucment is also a way to let the consumer know the maker is planning to roll out the new release and keep it customer happy. However that ideas somethings will be abused to especially for new startup that catch public attention and prevent consumer in spending the money in their competitors. Even if the product is not ready to be tooled. Under this logic if we announce an su-33 3.0 is that the consumer will wait further ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nino_Belov Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) . Edited August 13, 2020 by Nino_Belov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tony.t Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Just received my "V1" 1/48 Kinetic Su-33 and am very impressed. Had been hankering over this for a couple of years as I normally only build 1/32 scale and the occasional tiny 1/72 kit. The canopy seam is annoying in this scale and the contents stacked a tiny bit too tight, but it looks like a fabulous kit. Will get the Zvezda 1/72 kit to build first to fully understand the geometry of the aircraft with folded wings, and hope the Tan Model 1/32 CAD makes it to plastic one day. Great aircraft the Su-33. Would be nice to see a good kit of the production MiG-29K sometime soon. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nino_Belov Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) . Edited August 13, 2020 by Nino_Belov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Doppelgänger Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Hi, Raymond. I really enjoyed your range of 1/48 Kfirs; I bought them all. Very nice kits I'm thankful that Wingman Models used them as the basis for their Super Kit series. I understand your point of view, and of course that I'm well aware of what you're telling me. The thing I was disappointed the most about the Kinetic Su-33 are those aspects in it I just can't fix, namely, the lack of a round-shaped fuselage around the canopy in the forward fuselage and under it. This is a key and characteristic feature on the real thing, which is glaringly evident when taking a look at the Kinetic kit. Some other issues with the Kinetic Su-33 could be fixed with a little work, like the shallow cockpit floor and bang seat, but not the issue with the forward fuselage. 11 hours ago, Raymond Chung said: Thr pre annoucment is also a way to let the consumer know the maker is planning to roll out the new release and keep it customer happy. Granted, but you won't make customers happy with just an announcement, I'm afraid. At least, not for too long if you don't show some kind of progress. If I chose to sell my Kinetic kit in favour of waiting on a better one, that's the risk I'll take. I'm the only one to blame if there is no new kit, but believe me I won't ever trust an announcement from any manufacturer. In this case, I've been following this thread, saw some progress on the project and decided to take the gamble; decided to put my trust in this new project. 11 hours ago, Raymond Chung said: However that ideas somethings will be abused to especially for new startup that catch public attention and prevent consumer in spending the money in their competitors. Even if the product is not ready to be tooled. I think every modeller makes the decision on their own with respect to buying which kit or not not based on what you say, but more based on personal needs. Sometimes I learnt that there's a new kit announced, but I had this terribly itch about building the one it's already released in the market. Thankfully, manufacturers will be able to abuse on pre-announcements only once, and as a customer you can clearly understand it's not a sane thing for manufacturers to abuse on pre-announcements. Modellers are not idiots. 11 hours ago, Raymond Chung said: Under this logic if we announce an su-33 3.0 is that the consumer will wait further ? Well, if you announce a Su-33, provided it's in 1/48th scale, and I see it's even better than what I've got, then I will wait. Now, Heaven forbid if it's only an announcement to catch public attention, prevent consumers from spending money on your competitors or make me happy, 'cause in this case I won't ever trust you again. Cheers, Onigiri Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nino_Belov Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) . Edited August 13, 2020 by Nino_Belov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Whiskey Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Very nice and impressive CAD drawings. I won't get any hopes up until I see the plastic however. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nino_Belov Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) . Edited August 13, 2020 by Nino_Belov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madcop Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 55 minutes ago, Nino_Belov said: You are right my friend, 100%, Mr.Liang told me that tools are in stage of preparation.We will have very soon I hope first sneak picks of model itself...plastics... 🙂 Yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Madcop Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tony.t Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 8 hours ago, Nino_Belov said: Friend, be kind and take a look previous posts, deferences betwean V.1.0 and V.2.0.... Nino, I'll treat the Kinetic V.1 as a prototype and will buy the AA V.2 if and when it emerges. I don't think you can have too many of this aircraft. I'm really hoping for the 1/32 Tanmodel version. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Helmsman Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 4 hours ago, tony.t said: I'm really hoping for the 1/32 Tanmodel version. This! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nino_Belov Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 (edited) . Edited August 13, 2020 by Nino_Belov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B.Sin Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 13 hours ago, Nino_Belov said: My friends, I have done my part for this project, now is everything on Mr.Liang. Well all hope Mr.Liang come's through. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Poncho 6231 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 20 hours ago, Nino_Belov said: My friends, I have done my part for this project, now is everything on Mr.Liang. And what part is that if I may ask? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nino_Belov Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 (edited) . Edited August 13, 2020 by Nino_Belov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nino_Belov Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 (edited) . Edited August 13, 2020 by Nino_Belov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madcop Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 On 9/29/2018 at 1:27 AM, Nino_Belov said: Belive me my friends, I am in greatest anticipation for this model kit, and hardly wait it's showing on store shelfs. Hi Nino , How about your morale ? Madcop Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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